Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Newbie here. What's next?

My son is six years old and was recently placed in our public schools gifted program.

He was given the COGAT and scored V 97%, Q 96%, NV 97%. His composite score was 99%. His spring MAP scores are 181 in math and 179 in reading. The gifted specialist tells me it is unusual for a child to get these scores on the COGAT, although I'm sure that's not the case for the viewers of this forum!

I'm new to all of this and I'm not sure what to do for my son. I was frustrated all year with kindergarten with countless coloring pages. Now with first grade, I'm trying to be patient, but his homework today was making tally marks, simple addition and counting. The second page required him to read color words as fast as he could. This was clearly not a challenge for him at all.

I don't think my son is ready for algebra, but I'm certain he's capable of more than what he is bringing home. The fact is, I don't know what he's capable of and I don't where to start.

Do I have additional testing done? If so, what tests? Do I meet with his teacher? What is reasonable for me to ask of her? I know that it's impossible for her to meet the needs of every student, but I hate the idea of him spending the day counting to 200 at school when he's asking me about adding negative numbers at home.

Thanks for your insight.

Hello NikiHarp,
Welcome to the board! The national norms for the NWEA MAP test are in Appendix B here: RIT Scale Norms Your DS6 (dear son on this board) did very well, 96th percentile for reading and 95th for math for kindergartners. His CogAT scores seem to back up his achievement scores. Hard to say if that's unusual for the folks on this board - the CogAT sometimes has troubles identifying GT kids!

So your son is currently in the gifted program? What does that mean at your school? Is it fulltime with other kids working at his level? Or is it a pullout? Is your son complaining about things being too easy?

If he's in the fulltime GT program, and you feel he's not getting the chance to learn new things the majority of the time, it might be a good idea to meet with the teacher just to let her know how your son is feeling about the work, and ask what sort of material is coming up. Is this the start of the school year? It may be that she's getting to know where all the kids fit, and there may be some grouping later. (You should ask that too.) She may be doing some in-class assessments that you aren't aware of. I would start with the teacher, then move up if nothing comes of that.

Thanks for your help. The gifted program at our school is a pull-out program, about 40 minutes a day.

We are entering our second full week of school here. Perhaps I need to be patient and let the teacher get her bearings and then meet with her to gain a better understanding of what he will be learning in her classroom.

My son has the same problem with homework. Do check before you object though that the homework is indicative of class work level. Some teachers have this theory that doing easy homework includes fluency and confidence.

Hmmm. If it's only a pullout, then I will add more. First grade can be dreadfully horrible for kids who already know how to read and do basic math, as that is usually what they teach in first. Can you volunteer or otherwise go observe in the classroom to get a feel for what's going on?

The GT teacher may be a helpful advocate too. Maybe you can ask the GT teacher if there is additional stuff going on in the classroom for the GT kids (e.g., differentiation, clustering).

As for how long to wait for the teacher to get to know your kiddo, that depends on what type of kid you have. Mine would have hidden his abilities to blend in. He doesn't like to stand out and does not like to speak in class. So the teacher wouldn't have know about his abilities until much later. Also depends on how much your kiddo is complaining. If he complains every day, that's a big problem and I'd want to meet with the teacher sooner rather than later.

When/if you meet with the teacher, you will want specific examples of why you think your kiddo might need some more challenging work. E.g., what sort of math have you seen him doing, what books is he reading. Is he allowed to pick out his own books for free reading? Check out the classroom library, too -- if there's nothing at his level, ask the teacher if she minds if you donate some books.


These are just random ideas, as you haven't yet described in particular you would like. Before you meet with the teacher, have a clear view of what exactly you are hoping for. Can you give more details about what you'd like here? Then we can try to help you brainstorm. Lots of us have been there/done that. (In our story, we ended up getting a grade skip for our DS, using the Iowa Acceleration Scales to give the school objective evidence as to why the skip was a good idea.)

Thank you both for your help.

I've just completed volunteer training and I'm working with the teacher now to get on a regular schedule for volunteering, so that's in the works.

I emailed the GT teacher for additional information on his CogAT scores. I've only received the percentiles and I'd like the raw data, although I'm not sure if that information would be helpful or not. I asked her if an IQ test had been done and she replied that the CogAT was an IQ test. This gives me pause because everything I've read says the CogAT is not an IQ test.

The GT kids receive two enrichment activities in the regular classroom daily. What I'm learning now is that enrichment and acceleration are two very different things. I'd like to see him challenged with second grade math and reading if that is his instructional level.

My son is very social and loves school. He is enthusiastic about answering questions in class and got in "trouble" last year for answering out-of-turn. I don't think he complains about any of it because he likes being right and it's easy to be right when everything you encounter is easy. At some point, he has to bump up against a challenge and learn how to navigate that.

St Pauli Girl, thanks for asking questions. You've helped me clarify what I actually want.

Hi NikiHarp,
Welcome! I am new here too, and have a DD6 that just started 1st grade.
We are in similar situations, so I'll share a bit about what we did and are trying to do.

I too wasn't sure that DD was being challenged. She started reading in Pre-K, so she had a pretty good foundation to build on. Our DD was in pull-out ELP for 30 minutes a week for reading with a few others. I began to do more reading about giftedness and decided to see if we could get her tested. The school gave her the CoGAT as well. After we received the results (on the last day of school). We had the GoGAT and her reading level, but not much else to help with a plan.

We finally a wonderful child psychologist who works with the local school districts and is well versed in GT education. She gave her the WISC-IV. Her results were good, especially the verbal (which was also her highest category on the CoGAT). The psychologist went over the results with us and talked a bit about what sort of educational setting (project based learning or IB) might be best for our DD.

While the WISC highlighted what we already suspected, I think that it will help us with future education planning. I don't think anyone took us seriously last year....ELP doesn't formally start until 3rd grade, and no one seemed to be concerned about where DD was at other than me. I am hopeful that this year will be better. We have yet to meet with the Principal, teacher and ELP teacher. I'm anxious about this year already because they've changed literacy programs and now are required to have 90 minutes "in classroom" reading time. Thus, ELP pullout may not be in the cards. However, I'm not sure how they can meet the needs of DD who left Kindergarten reading at level "T".

We are in the process of applying to the Davidson Young Scholars program in hopes that it offers additional support/information and insight.

Sorry to be so wordy:-)

Yes, enrichment is a disappointment in so many ways. Sure, it's usually fun, but if so, why can't all the kids do it? It seems to me there is no way to avoid bitterness from others whose kids are not in GT if you go the enrichment way.


Although your son's personality sounds quite the opposite of mine (mine won't speak up in class), their issues sound the same. We started our journey with advocacy because we also felt that our kiddo should learn how to be challenged, even fail, so he could learn how to learn -- before college. I think you need to ask about more achievement testing at this point (unless your school relies strongly on the MAP scores for placement, which is unlikely), to see what level your son is working at. If it turns out that most his academic peers are a grade up, I would ask if your kiddo could move up a grade.

It's harder when the kids appear happy and don't complain at school. You have to walk a fine line so you don't insult the teacher. They really don't see what you see -- you need to help them. What convinced our DS's local school was a combo of MAP and achievement tests the school psychologist gave. We had private IQ testing done before school, which opened the door to discussions, but most teachers have no idea what IQ scores mean and they want to get to know your kid on their own.

The CogAT is not an IQ test. It is a sort of OK predictor of how well a kid will do in a GT program.

This is so helpful to me. My husband very graciously pointed out yesterday that I need to stop being apologetic about our son's abilities. I'm very anxious about approaching the teacher or administration. Part of that is because I respect what they do so much and the other part is because of the stories I've heard from others.

The bottom line is that my son needs more at school and, as his parent, it's my job to work toward that on his behalf.

Thank you all for sharing your experiences. It helps to hear from people farther down the road.

Here is a helpful advocacy book that Davidson created. http://print.ditd.org/young_scholars/Guidebooks/Davidson_Guidebook_Advocating.pdf

I think if you go into advocacy with the idea that you are part of a team with the school, asking for help and offering help, you can advocate more smoothly. If don't have much time right now, but I'll try to post some more resources later.

I think you've gotten wonderful advice already - the only thing I'd add is that this is just the very start of the school year and your ds is in a new program (I think this is his first year in the GT program?). I'm also guessing that since it's first grade a lot of the *other* students in his class are in the GT program for the first time too. It's not unusual in any classroom for the first week or so of school to be spent with the teacher giving the class assignments simply to see where all the kids are at - so your ds may be getting work right now that is easy for him but that might not be what he'll be doing for the rest of the year.

I think that before seeking out further testing (simply for school purposes) I'd wait a few weeks, watch what work is done in school (not just homework), talk to your ds about what he is doing during the day, and also talk to the teacher about her plans for the class and differentiation etc. Then if you feel your ds needs more of a challenge, advocate for it. IQ testing can help, but otoh I've also found in our own experience that achievement testing and examples of work product and teachers' observations helped more than an IQ number.

There is one reason I would recommend testing though, if it is important to you - are you really curious about it? If you're wondering a lot and thinking that having a number would help you in deciding how to proceed, then I'd have him tested.

This is just another thought to toss out there for you - my understanding is that the CogAT is a "learned ability" test - which (just my understanding - I could be way off lol!) - is that it attempts to assess reasoning skills etc but is dependent on what knowledge a student has been exposed to and also assumes some "inside the box" type of logic/reasoning. An "IQ" test (WISC, WJ-III Cognitive, SB) is an "innate" ability test - ie, learned knowledge isn't going to give one child and advantage over another. My gut feeling from reading online and from knowing other parents in other cities over the years is that what makesup a "GT" classroom in one location may be very different from what is considered "GT" in another, depending on the criteria used for screening. It's possible that the level of work you're seeing may really be what it's going to be for the rest of the year because perhaps the criteria for getting into the program isn't as high or is different in a sideways-type-of-way than it might be in another GT school. So you can't just assume that being in a GT classroom is going to mean your ds' academic needs are met. Another early elementary phenomena that seemed to occur where I live is that there are *lots* of parents who think their children need "more" in school in those early years where there really isn't much challenging going on in most classrooms - so there are a lot of kids who can do more but who really aren't going to have the ability to support or need to do "way more". That's where I found it helpful to actually have IQ testing.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Good points! It is a very, very good idea to see what the plans are going forward. But I don't think it hurts to ask about the process, if you can't wait it out.

ETA: Also wise to remember that we're all complete strangers on the internet... none of us knows your particular situation and most of us respond based on our own experiences. There is tons of really useful information on this board, but the more experiences you read about, the more you're likely to get a good idea about all kinds of options, and you can pick and choose and tailor the advice to your situation.

So then, I'm curious your opinions of the CogAT. If it is testing "learned ability" does that mean that kids who do well on the CogAT will respond well in the type of learning that takes place in a school setting but may not necessarily be gifted? From what I can tell, this test certainly won't identify levels of giftedness. Further testing would be needed for that.

Part of the reason I wanted additional testing is because I'm curious. I was totally taken off guard by the scores on his MAP and CogAT. I knew he was bright, but I underestimated him for sure. Now, I'm thinking, "what else am I missing?"

Honestly, he does well at subject based material, but he's not off the charts on his reading and math levels. I think it's his ability to apply what he's learned in multiple areas quickly and before anyone has instructed him to do so. It's also the depth of the questions he asks once something new has been presented to him. It's almost like an intuitiveness that you can't quite put your finger on. I don't even know if that makes any sense.

I don't have a sense that DS is profoundly gifted but I also have a hunch that the CogAT may not be showing his full potential...which it seems it's not even created to do. Ugh...these tests are giving me a headache. LOL.

You guys have been incredibly helpful. Sorry for all of the questions.

There has been discussion on this forum about how good of a job the CogAt is at identifying gifted kids vs. bright high achievers. (I have followed it in particular b/c my dd6 seems like a kid who may not do so well on the CogAt despite my sense that she is highly gifted) Use the search feature to track it down. That said--what you have said makes sense, and I would encourage further testing. I was suprised by the WISC results, and made a decision for my dd to skip 6th grade as a result, which was clearly the right thing for her. Without the testing I would not have known just how much more she was capable of. FWIW, when dd12 took the CogAt, she did not score nearly as highly (still gifted) as she did on WISC, and her achievement has shown WISC seems more accurate.

Yes, as deacongirl says, you can find a lot of discussion re: Cogat here. I find that a google search of cogat and this site will get you better results than the search box here.

If you have money to spare, an IQ test with a psychologist who is familiar with GT kids can be very useful. We received a long and detailed report explaining what all the scores meant. This was helpful in getting a needed grade skip for our son, and also very useful just to understand what type of schooling might work best for our kiddo. (Think flexible.) It's nice to get a better idea of where exactly your child falls. It helps you to figure out if the MAP scores are right on or possibly lower than they could be due to things just not being taught, or even possibly a hidden disability.

My husband and I just got back from meeting with the teacher. I'm so disappointed. I kept telling myself that it was going to go well, that we were going to be a team and help DS advance in school, that it must be nice to have a bright kid who is so very eager to learn.

Our goal for the meeting was to just ask what he would be learning in the regular classroom. We referenced his test scores but didn't focus on that. As soon as we mentioned our observations from home, she became defensive and showed us all the opportunities he would have in her classroom.

Then she brought up his behavior problems. He wiggles in group time, is rowdy in the bathroom, etc. She said that his other teachers had also seen this behavior and she hoped it wouldn't interfere with the advanced "opportunities" that were available to him. She has never contacted me about these issues before and school has been in session for a month.

She mentioned that he chose not to do all the enrichment activities provided to him. The example she used was a weather map. He was to forecast the weather by coloring each state on a map, write out the forecast and then add symbols to the map. He didn't add the symbols.

Perhaps no one will read this, but I feel better for having written it.

Hi Niki,
I'm sorry your meeting didn't go well. I don't have any sage words of advice, but am right there with you, except we have a 6 year old daughter in first grade. We haven't had our meeting yet with the ELP teacher, principal and classroom teacher.

Seems like the teacher was reaching to find something negative. If his behavior is less than what she expects, then she should talk to you about it when it happens, not wait. Perhaps the weather map was boring to him. Some kids like a little more hands on sorts of enrichment. Do you have pullout for ELP, or is it in classroom?

Hang in there, PM me if you want. I'm right in the thick of it as well.

Good luck!

oh, Niki... my heart goes out to you (and Gardengirl09!) - your situation sounds so similar to what we went through with trying to talk to the Pre-K teachers last year with DD. we literally had two classroom teachers pretend that DD had no issues at all, and was exactly like all the other kids - in every possible way. well, except for all the things that simply couldn't be happening because they apparently weren't "developmentally possible."

as it turns out, they didn't actually have an entire class of kids who could blithely talk you through a double-lung transplant - but they did have a very good idea of how to shut down meaningful dialogue.

all the best - i'm sorry i don't have any great advice - our situation ended pretty badly with the school, and i really wish i could offer you something more useful than empathy. i spent most of last year just screaming inside the echo chamber of my own head - so please do vent away!

Thank you all for your encouragement. I think I was a bit naive going into the meeting.

Gardengirl, he's in a pullout program every day for 45 minutes. However, one of the things his classroom teacher highlighted today was that he wasn't taking advantage of all the opportunities there either. He hadn't finished a dictionary assignment where they were asked to look up words and copy their definitions. Seriously? Could they really be asking them to copy definitions? In his gifted class??

Yes, yes they can! Prior to DD9's being tested, she was evaluated by a gifted teacher for several weeks - not any type of formal evaluation, just how about we see if she looks and acts gifted while working with the gifted teacher type eval. That gifted teacher reported back to the principal that DD (7-8 yrs old at that time)didn't really get excited with what she was having her do and didn't just take off and go on her own, so she didn't think DD was at all gifted based on that. She also mentioned in some report, that we never saw, that there were times DD didn't even want to come work with her when she went to get her out of the classroom. Later when I asked DD about this, she told me she would show up when the class was having a party or watching a movie or doing something fun that she didn't want to miss out on, so she told her she didn't want to go. That part was never mentioned in this phantom report. DD also said the stuff she was having her do was totally boring, so again why would she want to go do more boring stuff.

My DD acted up in class due to boredom, like it sounds like your DS might be doing - can't blame them! DD skips problems, messes up simple assignments, and doesn't go above and beyond on anything unless she really wants to. Annoying repetition is like poison to her and enrichment is just more of the same stuff she already has shown she can do.

Getting our own personal testing done was the best thing we ever did because it helped us truly understand what we are working with. You are lucky you at least have the CogAT, but it sounds like that hasn't really helped any when it comes to the teacher. We went round and round with the teacher and the school counselor. It wasn't until we asked for a meeting with the teacher, counselor, former teacher (that understood our DD), and principal all together that we got anywhere. That may not help your situation, but it may not hurt to try. Our new gifted teacher (the phantom report writer retired) has been helpful in advocating some for us, so you may try to go that route too.

I read something somewhere and made sure to remember so I could use it if needed - These kids are not just gifted during their pull-outs, they are gifted every day and all day long. They need differentiation and accommodations in the regular class just as much as anything else. More often than not, enrichment is not differentiation or acceleration!

Niki,
Ahh, the old dictionary word look up! How about something more hands on.....science experiments, researching something interesting??? I'm sorry that it's not going as planned.
Hang in there! Have you thought about talking with the head of the ELP program? Going around people, I know, but sometimes you gotta to what you've gotta do:-)
MIght be helpful to get their district perspective?

Good Luck!

Gardengirl, is ELP the same as the gifted specialist? She's the one who told me that the CogAT was an IQ test, so she's not inspiring the most confidence right now.

We are going to get his IQ tested. At this point, I need to know what to do for DS, whether in the school system or on our own.

Did any of you feel that pushing it with the school put a target on your kids back? I'm sure I'm over-reacting, but I hadn't been contacted about behavior problems or incomplete work until we brought this up. I'm not saying that DS in an angel, he's tough, but the timing seems interesting to me. She may have just seen it as an opportunity to inform us of what was going on...who knows.

All of this is mind-boggling to me.

Niki
Yes, ELP is Extended Learning Program or Talented and Gifted.
I don't think that having our DD tested put a target on her necessarily. Maybe a target on me:-)
I think you are right about the gifted specialist not being inspiring...maybe she doesn't understand Cognitive Abilities Test!

We just found out that our principal and his "team" want to meet tomorrow (a meeting we requested) to talk about educational planning. So much from a few days to choose from to make it work in DH's work schedule.

Hang in there!

It's been a few months since you posted this. Just wondering how it's going now? Has anything changed? What you went through is the reason why I'm so reluctant to keep pressing my feelings upon the teacher. I'm afraid it will put a target on my Ds's back. It seems that your DS's behavior wasnt enough of an issue to tell you about it until you brought up something that you werent happy about. It's almost like she was bringing it up as a way to deflect the conversation off of what she might be doing wrong and onto what your DS is doing wrong. What was her point? Was she trying to say that because his behavior isnt perfect then he doesnt need to be challenged more academically???

Mylittlecubs, I wish that I could say that things are going better. I do believe my questions put a target on my son's back. We went and spoke with the counselor about his behavior problems and she told us she would observe him. That was October and nothing has been done. In the meantime, he has was accused of punching a girl in his class. This child was just recently announced cancer-free and, at the time, she had a port in her side. The teacher said he punched her there on purpose. Now, do I believe the teacher invented this story out of thin air? Absolutely not. However, I do think she would have handled it differently if we hadn't asked the questions that we did. He was sent to the counselor 5 days after the event to discuss his behavior but never given any consequences by the school...just at home. (Incidentally, he didn't punch her at all. She cut in line and he pushed his way in front of her. Still not okay, but not nearly as awful and punching her.)

All of what we have experienced this year has felt so dramatic. It was taking a toll on our family and we've decided to get off the emotional roller-coaster for a little while. It wasn't getting us anywhere. My son is testing about 3 grades ahead in math and reading and showing mastery in science. For now, we are supplementing at home with fun games and activities and it's been a blast. We rarely do any homework the school sends and I pay little attention to their behavior assessments. We will be speaking with the principal at the end of the year about second grade. I've also applied for a job at a private school.

I am astounded at the way all of this has played out. Since I've stopped questioning, his report card has gotten better and I haven't been contacted about his off-task, distracted behavior.

Sorry for the novel. Feel free to PM me.

So sorry to read that things aren't so great.

I have a 9 yo son and he's a wriggle worm. He's always in motion and has a hard time sitting. I think he's looking for some kind of sensory input. A friend who has a gifted dd about the same age, also with a problem with wiggling around and not sitting, pressed the school to accommodate her by giving her a specialized cushion to sit on and she finally quit getting notes home about that behavior.

Behaviorwise, bored kids just do that. They know busy work when they see it. They don't care to color a map -- that's for kindergarteners you know. Boring!

Can you approach them about letting him go to a grade ahead for math and/or another subject? If they agree to a trial run, you can see how it goes and maybe be in a better position to advocate for a grade skip. Ask for it as a trial --- three weeks or so with a firm meeting date so you can discuss.

For our DD12, she is now in Alg 1 and they had to accelerate her to an 8th grade math to make her schedule work so she could have the algebra. They want us to grade skip her to 9th next year from 7th this year. But the split classes (half 7th, the 8th grade reading, and the Alg 1 in the high school building) also let us bridge that gap, while giving her a little time to transition because she's meeting some new people while still having some classes with age peers.

Meanwhile, see if you can make friends with teachers who would teach him next year, in case your private school option doesn't pan out.

I can recommend reading "Teaching Gifted Kids in the Regular Classroom" by Susan Winebrenner. I am not a teacher, but I, as a parent, found this book extremely helpful in advocating. I like the testing out of a unit option. Maybe that's something they would consider. If he could consistently pass a pre-test on the material, maybe they'd get the drift and realize they're wasting their time and his on things he already knows.

Good luck! Chin up and keep on fighting the good fight.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I did ask about subject acceleration and the answer from the district was "We don't do that at this time."