Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Scores Indicate 2e...Suggestions for Next steps

We met with our tester. We have great confidence with her. She suspects 2e but said the scores don't tell a complete picture here. I posted on testing thread and am posting here for 'next steps' advice. I'll copy scores at the end of this post, as well.

The suspicion is stealth dyslexia...phonics testing did not confirm. He fits profile, somewhat...hard to tell...hence the stealthiness of it .

The Plan:
1) The thought is we use this year (first grade) to remediate--privately and not share results with the school. She suggested we get a private tutor for reading and writing and tutoring method not as important as frequency of focus. I'm trying my best to find a qualified private tutor but seems to be a crap shoot. Any advice?

2) Also frequency? She said 1-2 times a week....but at $50 an hour and the sessions are 2 hours...I may be only able to swing 1xs a week. But I don't want to short change him...I just want to ensure he can also do other things for enjoyment and enrichment!

3) Hopefully he will get into the one-day a week gifted program at his school and that will cover enrichment outside of lego robotics and weekend excursions.

4) If remediation doesn't yield a big jump in achievement this time next year we are on to adding accommodations as well and clearly involving the school.

Thoughts on the above as a game plan?

The Scores:

We have scores. We have scatter. We had an awesome tester, and even though achievement doesn't hit mark she suggested we still apply. Any thoughts on scores and application appreciated. A LD is suspected. phonics scores though do not confirm one...hmmm. Child is 6.7 years

VCI 166
Similarities 21
Vocab 20
Comprehension 21
Information 20
Word reasoning 19

PRI 148
Block Design 16
Picture concepts 16
Matrix Reasoning 22

WMI 129
Digit Span 13
letter-number sequencing 17

PSI 97
Coding 10
symbol Search 9
Cancellation 8

GAI 170

WJ III
Overall 123
Everything in similar range...
Spelling 109 was lowest
Calculation 138 was highest



CTOPP for Phonics Screening (due to gap in Achievement scores)
All average to above average...
Phonological awareness. 132
Phonological Memory 118
Rapid Naming 112

What do you see day to day? What are his weaknesses and struggles?

Is it possible lower achievement is partly lack of exposure?

It is possible achievement is lower due to exposure and interest. He did go to preschool and we have always read at home. But he was never interested in learning to read and we have never jump started a skill (preferring to wait until it is introduced to same-age peers).

But, the lower processing speed does seem to mean something.

As far as strengths: he is a very verbal kid. He would create very funny riddles and word plays as a 3 and 4 year old. When 5 he was really into words with multiple meanings and now creates puns (i think thats what he does...ha!) constantly. He remembers everything and learns concepts super quick...and connects dots very easily...a big picture thinker for a six-year old...he is decently creative...and loves living in pretend worlds, playing Legos and Minecraft. He loves to illustrate stories in great detail, as well. He is a very hard worker, rule follower, and people pleaser. Academically he is great with sight words, comprehension, science, and math facts. He is good with mental math, fluency, addition/subtraction.

Weaknesses: He loathes writing. He is a 33 week preemie so we thought it a fine motor skill issue for a long time. He loathes the process of writing...figuring out what to put in the paper and most importantly spelling. He gives up very easily if anything is hard and always has...things that seemed hard for him included reading, writing and numbers. Once a foundation is created (like when he learned his sight words and built up some decoding skills) he is no linger resistant. But introducing a new process seems to be the hang up for him...this reading a book like Life of Fred is a lot of fun for him...or reading about the weather, or making snap circuits...learning how to ell time...excruciatingly painful.

Does that help?

Helpful rambling. Really appreciated. I need more guidance based in your thoughts

1) how would I go about further investigating LD? The tester did the CTOPP so it includes a gazillion subtests. Where do I go for a deeper dive and does anyone believe I should do that now or wait the year as tester suggested?

2). The tutoring is suggested for reading and writing. That's all we were told...to help him close gap to aptitude I suppose. As for what I see...his reading did not progress in a typical fashion. He had no trouble learning letters or sounds...all before he was two. He did not make the leap to CVC words. We tried a few BOB books and he resisted. What he did was memorize loads of books with dense text and read those to people. When 4.5 he was given a list of 50 flash cards at preschool. He learned them all in a day at school and started level one readers. He guessed at any word he didn't know and was accurate many times as he used contextual clues. He hung in this phase until kindergarten where he started at level A and ended assessed at level I (instructional M). When he reads now it isn't a joy for him, he does well but still resists decoding if it isn't fluent, sometimes skips lines and words, but seems to have strong comprehension. I notice other struggles with sequencing, motor planning, and yes the pragmatic reasoning you mention...


3). Yes, we are exploring vision as suggested by the tester and have a referral for a developmental optometrist. We have yet to make that appt though so I need to move in that. Trying to figure insurance first.

4) thank you for the advice on balancing remediation as I do not want this to become a self-fulfilling prophecy, nor a self-esteem drain. If we do this it is to allow reading/writing to become easier and more enjoyable.

Thanks again. It feels complicated, but hopefully it will be clearer soon.

Hi N...
Quite a few similarities with my DS7.5, to the point of wondering if dyslexia might not be something for us to explore. We know he has corrected vision issues that may be causal, but could just also be coincidental.

Here are some other specific traits we see that may have some dyslexic overlap or overlap with trait concepts that the Eides detail in their "Dyslexic Advantage" book, that I'm curious if you see:
* Frequently skips words or gets them out of order when reading out loud
* Will confidently guess at words, when wrong he has a hard time switching to the corrected answer
* Strongly drawn to podcasts or videos over reading, but completely absorbs info from those sources
* Dislikes repetition of any sort
* And similarly loves change and new things and places
* Does not enjoy reading, but claims he does, but just doesn't get around to doing it on his own

I'm also curious if anyone knows specifically what therapy or accomodations for dyslexia look like compared to something like vision therapy or help for dysgraphia.

My basic concern with going any one direction is burning bridges with DS who is driven nuts by repetition (and it would be hypocritical of me to not support him in that need.) Many therapies seem to require continuous daily repetition and getting the wrong one with no positive outcome would not be good. We are trying an experiment with writing and spelling tutoring for six months (two hours a week,) but if it is dyslexia versus just needing some specific bridging and direct instruction I don't want to waste his time.

Hi N
I have a 7.5 DS who was a 32 week preemie. His problem is in writing not reading, was a very early reader. The most obvious way to see if remediation is necessary is to compare to age-mates not intellectual peers. DS in pre-k was behind his age peers in writing. He hated anything that worked his hands - like playdoh - but he didn't seem delayed because of his intellect. Once he hit kindergarten in a gifted school, it was more dramatic, the differences in writing ability. And more importantly the difference between what he could do verbally but not on paper. The weirdest was spelling - he can spell a word incorrectly writing it but if you ask him to spell it aloud he spells it correctly. There is some disconnect between the thinking and the writing - most of it is physical, some is rushing, and some is his wiring. And it is also clear now, that he has slight delays in most physical things. So we do swimming and gymnastics in order to build up core strength and arm strength. He has an IEP in school and gets OT for writing - they work on Handwriting w/o Tears and all sorts of strength related stuff. Everything is slowly getter better. Master of None told me 2 years ago that by third grade, a lot of the balance type things get better - like needing to sit in a W or have a foot on the floor while sitting - and we are already seeing those gradual improvements.

His writing issues do not appear to be dyslexic related or its that he has already compensated for it - his letter and number reversals still pop up occasionally - when tired or stressed but rarely. He still writes rather largely and his letter formation is rarely the same. He is more dysgraphic but not exactly. His main issue is that when writing to get out ideas, will lose spaces between words so everything runs together. What is helping is graph paper - its teaching him to write the letters the same size by putting in a box and leave a box as space between the words. And you can make graph paper to the size necessary.

Your indication of his reading level suggests he is not behind but not when you factor in his scores. Although lots of kids have high VCI and take awhile to read comfortably.

YMMV, but in my experience the difficulty was all mental - in terms of remediating it. DS was SOOO resistant to everything in K because he was so embarrassed and so frustrated that things were so much harder for him. He did not understand that all the learning he had been doing had been work because it was fun for him - and that physical things require repetition. But during 1st he had a great teacher and OT who really worked together and with the changed attitude came huge gains of effort. He finally sees that other people have issues and that this is his. Now, we have buy in, we do work over the summer, and he now understands that the work is paying off and things are better - not great - but better. DS especially hated that he could not draw the complicated things in his head- so we are working on drawing - like with Ed Emberley's books.

DeHe

Wow, great insights in both cases. Like there is a big pre-processing engine that is continuously evaluating, interpreting, and correcting incoming sensory data. That suspicion clicks for me... though I wonder if it may be the reverse, the brain gets really good at pre-processing to cope with sensory issues and that same mechanism happens to be extremely useful for G.

Welcome N. - everything you wrote below sounds soooo so very much like my ds13 when he was young:


FWIW, my ds is dysgraphic and shares *some* of the traits of the Eides' definition of stealth dyslexia, but I don't believe that he's dyslexic. His reading development was a bit quirky, but once he was reading he was reading way above grade level and that's continued throughout school so reading really doesn't seem (on the surface) to ever have been an issue. OTOH, he has a very similar WISC profile to your ds, and fine motor dysgraphia has been a *huge* challenge for him. That's not saying your ds is dysgraphic - there are many different reasons that you might see a dip in scores like he has - but what it is saying, to me, is that you need more information to understand what's up, before you're truly going to be ready to come up with a plan.

There are two places you can refer to for more information on your own: the subtests on your ds' achievement testing, and your knowledge of what you've seen re your ds and academics - where he performs well, where he struggles. You can also look for signs of either visual or fine motor challenges in everyday life - did he have a challenge learning to tie his shoes, for instance.

A third resource is to read everything you can on dyslexia, dysgraphia, stealth dyslexia etc and see what might fit or not fit with what you've observed over time. Some clues are going to go back to early childhood too.

The other thing I think you will need (and this is just me, a non-professional parent, so take it all with a big grain of salt:))... is additional testing. Our ds' neuropsych testing included tests of visuo-motor integration, executive function, and fine-motor functioning - these tests helped tease out the reason for the large dip in processing speed.

Another thing for you to do is to review exactly what skill is assessed by each subtest of the WISC. You've mentioned the low processing and dyslexia somewhat intertwined, and processing speed does sometimes test low in people who are dyslexic or have reading challenges - but these subtests are tests that can also be highly influenced by slowness in brain-fine-motor integration or by a visual challenge or by simply being anxious about being timed (most of the other WISC subtests aren't timed... I think one of the PRI subtests is but can't remember which one). One way to separate out is there a reading challenge is to look at the reading achievement subtests - are they consistently low or is the fluency subtest lower? There are different response types required on the subtests - students like my ds who have a fine motor challenge but *not* a reading challenge may have a score in line with their IQ score percentile on a reading achievement subtest that requires a verbal response and isn't timed, but will have a lower than anticipated score on a subtest that requires a written response, and an even lower than expected response on a subtest that requires a handwriten response and is also timed.

I hope that makes some sense - I'm writing this all out in a bit of a hurry!



I thought the same thing re my ds when he had his first neurospych and his achievement scores were very scattered and much lower than I had expected them to be. It's possible that's what's happened, but you've mentioned behaviors re writing etc that indicate there *could* be something more going on. I'll also add that my ds never seemed interested in learning to read and we just thought that was all personality - he was into legos etc, building things. He was so advanced verbally and able to express such complex concepts at an early age and always asked such advanced questions we just chalked up the things he *wasn't* doing to gifted-kid quirkiness. Instead, they were signs of things that were real struggles and it just took school experiences to bring it all to the surface. Everything was fine when he was still at home and in preschool because he *could* choose what he did with his time and we (parents and his preschool teachers) didn't push any type of skill development, we were following his lead.

The other thing I wanted to mention was my 2e dd - she's younger (9) and we are still trying to work through how her challenge impacts her and trying to define exactly *what* it is, but she has had a very tough time learning how to read and is very frustrated by it. In her case, she has a weakness in her ability to associate sounds with symbols - she can understand and comprehend at a high level when she listens to audiobooks etc, but not when she reads from text. This has *nothing* to do with your ds except for testing - she's been through two dyslexia screenings, and one very thorough reading assessment. She's had the CTOPP and has similar type range in scores, but she's also had quite a few other reading-specific tests, including Gray oral reading and a bunch of others that I can't remember the names of but would be happy to look up if you'd like to know. If you think you're looking at stealth dyslexia or some type of reading challenge, I think it would help to have the breadth of these other tests - and the place I'd look for them would be through a reading specialist. In any event, there are so many different types of reading programs that I can't imagine it would be useful to dive off into one direction (program) without first having a really good understanding of what the challenge really is.

Lastly, once you have a good understanding of what the challenges are for your ds and what accommodations + remediation he will need - I would share it with the school - and I'd share now, not wait another year. The sooner you start advocating for accommodations in school, the better for your ds. The school district might not be able to provide your ds with all of the help he needs (we've relied quite a bit on private therapies etc) - but it's important (jmo) that they know early on that he has needs. It's also important to try to figure it all out so you can help him understand.

Gotta run - I am sorry I didn't have time to be sure this made sense - feel free to ask more questions!

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks everyone!

I see there are many similarities with all your children and mine! Feels better knowing your situation isn't a Lone Ranger . Yes, dysgraphia fits too...and it seems it is a large component of Stealth Dyslexia...if I'm reading Eides stuff correctly.

I didn't list all tests done as so many...but these were conducted:

WISC -IV
W-J III
Beery VMI 6
CTOPP
BASC -2 SDH
BASC -2, PRS-C
executive Functioning

WJ-III Subtests
A few of you mentioned taki g a deeper dive here. I have to say everything is in a clustered range with a few exceptions. I'll list...score/percentile

Letter-word identification 125. 95
Reading Fluency. 120. 91
Calculation. 138. 99
Math Fluency 126. 96
Spelling. 109. 73
Writing fluency. 119. 89
Passage comprehension. 124. 95
Applied Problems. 114. 82
Writing samples 113. 81

Tester comments were that comprehension is greater than fluency...another sign we may be dealing with Stealth .dyslexia or Dysgraphia (my words not hers)

The Berry-Buktenica Test Visual Motor Integration

Standard Scores 98
percentiles 45
category. Average
Age equivalent 5-11

The executive functioning was all in T-score range.

As to waiting for further assessments in my notes I wrote the tester said..."Let DS establish himself with teacher first. See what she thinks." I think she was nervous that the IQ would cause school to expect more than DS can give and then write him off...or ignore PG for the disability...that we aren't sure is there just highly suspect.

For those of you with 2e did your second child have the second e, as well. I have a toddler (almost 3) daughter and I've noticed she not only has zero interest in letters but when introduced to them she is not remembering them, yet she is also highly verbal and logical.

Thanks. Findi g the right tutor may be the hardest part of this.

Do you read the scores as not revealing much...as well...tester kept saying the scores weren't helping us much...

Your knowledge is very helpful and confirming. Yes, OT and a developmental opt screening were suggested and we are pursuing.

So, with remediation and what appears a moderate LD should we see gains in achievement...does the "ball and chain" become lighter? I guess that is what this year is about, huh...no crystal balls but wonder how much the second e eclipses the first, typically.

I too suffer from rapidly decreasing knowledge as mon mentioned lol! But here are a few quick notes and questions for you:

Did your ds have the same percentile scores on both Brery VMI subtests? My kids had two subtests - if I remember correctly one assessed fine motor and the other visual integration and a split in scores there would help clarify things - if a split existed.

The WJ-III achievement tests that are labelled fluency are all timed and reque handwritten responses. IT looks like they are all low scores relative to the others in their category except for math - its a little lower but not by much.... But math requires writing numbers not letters. My dysgraphic ds will tell you that writing numbers is easier than writing letters because there are only 10 numbers to remember. Relatively low scores on spelling and writing samples can both happen with dysgraphia. Applied problems is math bt I don't remember what specifically or how the responses are given.

As mon mentioned, the high achievement scores that our 2e kids can achieve can make it easy for their struggles to be overlooked or missed entirely in the classroom, particularly in early elementary. That's why I'd suggest trying to pin down exactly what is going on - if it is dysgraphia for instance, providing your ds with scribing and/or a keyboard asap will allow him to show his knowledge, lead to less frustration on his part, and be helpful to you in advocating to get him placed appropriately based on his intellectual strengths. We've been in that position of giving teachers the first weeks of the school year to get to know our child - and it never worked out well for us with our 2e ds - I think the challenge for the teachers was simply lack of having taught other 2e students - they had seen challenged students and they'd seen intellectually gifted students but they hadn't seen students with both gifts and challenges.

You asked about siblings and 2e - our ds' sibs aren't genetically related to him so they aren't a good example, but fwiw, he has bio-cousins and other bio-relatives who are dysgraphic and dyslexic. I wouldn't worry about your 3 year old yet, but I would watch for signs. I'd also think through your extended family - are there relatives with known dyslexia etc, or possibly relatives who don't like to read etc?

One other test that was really helpful for us in understanding ds' challenges was the TOWL (Test of Written Language). DS also has been through a speech assessment (CELF), which had large discrepancies in scores, and has been through subsequent speech therapy. In ds' case, as with some dysgraphics, there was more to his reluctance to use writing than lack of automaticity with handwriting - he also had an expressive language challenge that was not at all easy to recognize due to his ability to express himself verbally and due to his high IQ etc scores. We had to first get appropriate handwriting accommodations in place before we saw the full picture - which isn't unusual with 2e kids - it's more often a journey than a "quick fix".

Best wishes,

polarbear

Hope some of that helps!

We were posting at the same time so I missed this while writing my loooong reply

I wouldn't worry abut what you see on the WJ-III results as a measure of true achievement - compare them to what you see inyour ds, but remember they measure very specific sets of skills. True achievement (jmo) is more readily assessed through what happens in the classroom and in the types of achievement tests thatst schools use for all students. At least that's been our experience - take it for what it's worth!

Our family's experience has been that the challenge E takes center-stage during the early elementary years for several reasons - it takes effort to untangle the exact issues, it's a challenge for the student, and nice you know what it is you still don't necessarily NW all the answers re accommodations and remediation because that ales time and every student is unique. It can make recognizing the intelligence gifts and abilities difficult for searchers and mighty mean there are school opportunities your ds won't have that he wod have had if not for the challenge E. OTOH, once your are past the early years of learning the ins and outs of what is going on and how to accommodate and remediate, youll find the challenges taking much more of a back seat andthe intellectual gifts will shine. My ds is in middle school now, and although he still is and will always be dysgrhic, and will most likely notchoosewriting as a career path he is a happy, well-adjusted kid who is doing very well in school and has many opportunities for advanced studies.

polarbear

I posted this in a different thread back in March, but it seems relevant here:
I'm not familiar enough with the tests your DS had to know whether any of this applies, or does not apply, to him, but it might give you food for thought in terms of teasing apart possible diagnoses.

UPDATE:

Thank you everyone for help this summer. I'd like your thoughts as we approach the half-way mark of first grade. As a remember my son is 6 in first grade; he tested with GAI of 170 and his strength was in VCI. His relative weakness was in Processing with a 70 PT gap between VCI/PCI; 55+ gap PCi/PRI and 30+ gap WMI/PCI. His achievement scores were depressed compared to ability and he showed confidence issues during Achievement portion of assessment. A LD was suspected but Ed psych couldn't narrow down as phono awareness is strong.

1. He was accepted into gifted program at school based on CoGat and ITBS. Relief. His Cogat scores were not as high as WISC but understand they aren't comparable. Thengifted program is a full day pull out based on higher level thinking so it is a wonderful break from the rote aspect of elementary school.

2. He sees an OT for 60 minutes a week. He qualified for handwriting and motor planning. I asked if we should pursue dyspraxia and dysgraphia as possible LDs and she encouraged I seek a neuropsychologist to assess as he has some red flags.

3. He sees and OG reading tutor 45 minutes a week. When she assessed she noted his phonic skills are strong so that part of his development seems intact! She clocked his fluency at 97 WPM. He has improved so much with his spelling as he learns all the rules. I'm not convinced dyslexia is the reason for the big gap in achievement/IQ and processing speed weakness...but also recognize he is protected a lot with his 170 GAI thus hard to tease out. I'll keep with the tutor for now as he enjoys it...says he learns more from her in 45 minutes than a whole week of school.

4. Surprisingly to us he was identified for speech at school. Th/f and d/t plus swallowing his Rs. The therapy is helping and the issue is minor...

5. While Ed psych recommended we see a developmental optometrist we saw an ophthalmologist and he plus my pedi spooked my DH from exploring vision therapy further. I know there are several POVs on that subject but we have tabled it for now.

So it appears we now have a common processing story with some minor struggles in writing, spelling, reading and speech...all minor though...add motor planning and a picture seems to be forming. Whether this picture explains the underachievement, I don't know...dyspraxia, dysgraphia and stealth dyslexia have all been disorders suggested. I'm thinking our next step is a neuro psych to get a firm diagnosis so I can start lining up accommodations as they become needed. I'd like some advice from all of you!

Finally his regular school time is not going great. He has had difficulty connecting with classmates. He does have recess with BFF. He complains that he just sits there all day practicing the same thing over and over and he feels he already knows this stuff (he seems surprised as he is a trusting sort who expects if work is given to him he must need it...). His teacher is a bit of a mystery and so is his classroom work. she barely sends work home. during PTC she had two writing samples available to share, she doesn't allow volunteers in class and has ignored my request for copies of his reading assessments even with clear explanations. His first quarter report was mostly 3s(meeting standard) after all 4s the year prior. Rumor is she is very controlling, not friendly with other teachers/parents and caters to lowest denominator. The drawback is he is getting zero differentiation from her and I do not have a partner to help tease issues apart. What she has offered during PTC and a meet with VP and AIG early in the year is...his handwriting is fine when he focuses on it. That his reading is fine. That his underachievement is just because he is a bit immature. And the only thing she grasped onto is how sensitive he is. Can you tell I'm not a fan.

Any advice as to next steps is always appreciated. My plan based on advice I received from trusted others on another gifted board is to reach out to gifted teacher to seek guidance for classroom goals and persue diagnosis as better to have things in place then wait for issues.

I'm confused. If the gifted program is a full day pull out, then why is he in regular school at all.

Is he in first grade? Did they give you a percentile for reading fluency?

It does sound like dyspraxia/dysgraphia assessments would be in order. Did he reach speech milestones on time as well as motor skills? My dyspraxic DS had problems with combining words and forming phrases--he was almost 30 months before he formed phrases on a regular basis. Now that he is 6, his speech is still slow and seems dysfluent. Articulation is greatly improved and almost all his speech is understandable, but he still has problems with Th and R. He also has problems with most gross motor skills like hopping on one foot, catching balls, etc. You could do a private OT/PT eval first. They probably can't diagnose anything but they can give basic motor skills tests. You will want fine motor tests that are timed and purely physical (rather than having mental components). DS did just awful on something called the "Grooved Pegboard" which was timed and involved screwing pegs into a board, but there are other assessments as well, that go into more detail. You will want to look for evals with subtests that are purely physical, like manipulating small objects. A lot of high IQ kids will do Ok on handwriting or copying tests because those involve a mental component. You could start there and then depending on the results go for a neuropsych eval.

You already have most of the tests a typical neuropsychologist would run, but given the OT has seen red flags and the uncertainty you have re what's up, I think my next step would be a neuropsych eval.


FWIW, (and I'm not a professional, just a parent of 2e kids, so take my opinion truly for what it's worth - not much!!!), the profile your ds has on his WISC and WJ-III Achievement tests looks more like dysgraphia than dyslexia. Like you, I'd leave him with the tutor though since he's enjoying it


This actually doesn't surprise me, if there's a chance he's dyspraxic. People who are dyspraxic sometimes have speech issues too. My dyspraxic ds has a few articulation issues which are *very* subtle but they are definitely there.


I won't hammer in my pov, but fwiw, I'm not surprised an ophthamologist pooh-poohed the idea of vision therapy, and I have two children for whom vision therapy made a *world* of difference so I'm a big supporter of it for kids who have a demonstrated need. I think I asked before about your ds' Beery VMI subtests - this is a place you could look to see if there is an indication of visual-motor challenges that are vision related.


The neuropsych eval will be valuable to you for three reasons - first, you can (hopefully) firm up a diagnosis and get a better understanding for root cause (fine motor, visual processing, etc). Second, you'll have a report that you can use for advocating for accommodations/etc at school. More important (imo) than just having the documentation for school, the neuropsych should be able to help you see a plan forward for *life*, not just for school, and should also be able to give you references for whatever therapists etc he/she feels are necessary.


Most likely he already does know this stuff. Elementary school (outside his challenges from the second e) was excruciatingly boring for my ds. The neuropsych may be able to help you with recommendations on how to go forward re a school plan for the gifted side of your ds' 2e. I know that folks on here tend to emphasize the importance of finding a neuropsych who sees gifted children regularly... fwiw... I found that seeing a *local* neuropsych held almost as much value for us because our neuropsych knew the local schools well and in many cases was familiar with school staff and potential obstacles we'd face in one school vs another.


One thing that helped me advocate for my dysgraphic ds (also in a similar situation where classwork samples weren't being sent home) was to prepare writing samples at home that illustrated the impact of his dysgraphia - things like having him write a story using handwriting and then write a very similar assignment using keyboarding (be sure to time the writing). I could then pull those samples out at school meetings when the staff questioned whether or not there was an issue - it was obvious from looking at them that there were several issues!


I don't really care for this teacher much either (and I don't even know her lol)... but fwiw... we also ran into teachers in our elementary school who gave 3s rather than 4s even when my kids clearly should have been at "4"... the teachers explained it as "they aren't expected to be at 4 until the end of grade whatever they were in". So the teachers were using it as proof the kids were advancing "properly"... when really it was just either laziness or lack of even paying attention on the teachers part or maybe just a big attempt to make sure all students were right there smack-dab-in-the-middle of expectations. It was so not related to the actual student's work or abilities, but instead seemed to be more about the teacher meeting the school district's guidelines for how to report.


Two things to watch out for here. First the "it's fine" - it probably *looks* fine for a child who isn't as high ability. But remember that it's not "fine" that is what your child is entitled to under Federal Law. The ADAA guarantees that your child has the right to FAPE, and to access FAPE, he needs to be able to *show* the full extent of his knowledge.

The second red flag I see here is her comment "when he focuses on it". Being able to write well sometimes and not at other times was a huge issue for my dysgraphic ds. His issue went beyond the physical mechanics of holding a pencil and forming letters - he also had issues with generating ideas and simply getting started writing - but sometimes he could. Teachers would look at that seeming inconsistency and think he wasn't trying... when really the inconsistency was related to the type of writing assignment and prompt give. There are also even now, as a teen who's been through a ton of remediation, some days that writing just flows easier than it does on other days. It's so not about motivation at all - and our ds' SLP has reassured our ds many times that even for professional authors, writing doesn't just flow every day - you have to be in the mood.

I think your plan to seek a neuropsych eval as well as seeking advice from the gifted teacher for classroom goals is a good plan - good luck as you move forward, and let us know how everything goes!

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'm confused. If the gifted program is a full day pull out, then why is he in regular school at all.
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It is one day a week.

Yes, first grade. No percentile...she said in line with third grade. He was late with milestones but was a 33 week preemie so we chalked it up to that. He was in PT at 2.5-3.5 for struggles with stairs, jumping and throwing. We were told he had upper body low muscle tone and motor planning delays. once those skills were mastered I pulled him as PT was obsessed with his sensory stuff that I wasn't concerned with as I chalked up to OEs. We had him OT/PT assessed a few months back, again and he qualified for both writing and coordination. They said his motor skills were at a 4-2 yo level and at the time he was 6.9 you

Polar Bear...thank you for such a detailed response.

These are his Beery Results:

Standard Scores. 98
Percentiles. 45
Descriptive Category. Average
Age Equivalent. 5-11 (he was 6.5 at time)

- he has very strong fine motor skills now as we did a lot of cutting with him since he was four and he was lego obsessed and has probably put together over 35 full-size lego kits in the last two years. This has helped! Ha!

I had the same thoughts about his teacher. I believe she is lazy as my son reports that she sits at her desk all day, she is not aware as she does not work with the kids one on one..My son says he has never had a conversation with her for more than 2-3 sentences...she does a lot of whole class teaching, then provides assignments for completion and sits at desk while they complete. That is according to him. She does not work with the kids in small groups for either reading or math.

I'll seek a neuropsychologist and appreciate insight and set up time with gifted teacher. I'm hoping she will meet me alone and not pull teacher in...

Just be aware that strong fine motor skills in other areas do not necessarily translate to strong fine motor abilities for writing. The processing seems to be different somehow. (outer limit of my science knowledge apparent right there.)

DeeDee

Yes, I noticed this in my ds. Although he is/was very able and willing to build Legos, his handwriting is/was often painful and prohibitive. Also, as polarbear says, the difference in quality between handwritten and typed is huge--even now that he's 12.

He sounds a lot like my DS who turns 7 in a few months. A neuropsych diagnosed him with Developmental Coordination Disorder. His motor skills are about the level of a 4 year old overall, but he is strangely good at swimming. The school all along has told me he is "fine" with gross motor and there are plenty of other kids who are worse. Hah! I don't think so! The school FINALLY did a comprehensive eval including gross motor, saw the problem for themselves, and they are adding adapted PE to his IEP. He will still go to gym with the regular class but will also have pull-outs to work on gross motor. Also pullouts for handwriting.
His WJ achievement score was, strangely, over the 90th percentile for writing. (fluency was lowest at 80th). Gifted kids learn to compensate in so many ways or have strengths that hide the disability. So make sure you get testing that just looks at the physical aspect, as well as other kinds of testing so you can see any discrepancies and figure out if this is purely a motor issue, or if there are other learning disabilities. There are a few different kinds of dysgraphia, for instance. DS has motor dysgraphia. He is very strong with spelling.