Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Teaching resilience

My DS6 had been having trouble "controlling" his emotions at school. His teacher, Mrs F, feels he cries too much from nothing. He has cried three times in six months. I think that is pretty normal. Yesterday, he cried because he didn't want to read aloud to her, because he didn't want to talk. He broke down and couldn't stop crying. The thing that bothers me is that he loves to read to his tutor, his teacher from last year, and at home- it's just Mrs F that he hates reading to. I am also aware of her being very critical, though, she is not mean; she is just very picky, and I know she often tells my son how to talk, eg. "Talk louder and clearer. Sit up straight and hold your head up"...etc. He really does not like her, but I don't think he knows what that emotion is because he's never not liked someone before. And you should see how excited he is when the "fun" substitute teacher is there.

I have seen how she is with other kids crying and she is incredibly cold, and tries to use shaming: "Stop crying now, everyone is looking at you". She never asks if the child is okay. (Many reasons why I don't like her is because she doesn't think my son is gifted; lies about telling the principal that she feels he has no empathy or social ability; mocks the idea of my son excelling at his tutor lessons; tells me he is no more intelligent than any other kid in her class because all the grade one kids can do the grade one work, and sometimes DS doesn't want to do it; he isn't sociable because he doesn't get along with every kid in his class; and tells me in front of my son that he has "melt downs")

Anyway, my son doesn't want to go to school now. Well, he actually wants to change schools. So, how do I teach him to put up with her? Especially when I am having trouble putting up with her! I don't want to harden him up for the world, but I don't want him to run away from an insufferable, incompetent, unsympathetic teacher...

Honestly I don't think putting a 6-year-old with an "insufferable, incompetent, unsympathetic teacher" every day, all day, all year long is going to teach him resilience. Just think about how may hours of his life he's spending with this person- like it or not, she has a lot of influence over him. If you think the influence is more bad than good, I would take him out of the class.

If he were a teen my advice would be different, particularly because by high school he'd likely only have to endure a bad teacher for one hour a day.

And just for perspective my 6 year old probably cries three times an hour so three in six months is nothing.

Thanks for your reply, W'sMama. I would love to take my son out of class, but what if his next teacher is as bad, or worse? I feel he needs to learn to deal with difficult people.

I have found an article that may help others in a similar situation:

http://www.davidsongifted.org/db/Articles_id_10241.aspx

I am collecting articles/resources to show my son's principal the next time she says the whole "your-son-can't-grade-skip-because-of-social-issues" nonsense. Although I think the principal is getting fed bad information.

learning to deal with difficult people, yes but not at the cost of hiding his feelings inside all the time. From what I've seen and read, gifted kids seem to be very sensitive. My kids are super sensitive too. I don't see any shame in crying. From their point of view, the world is coming to an end, wouldn't you be crying if it was your last day on Earth?

I agree, and I definitely encourage expressing feelings. My son has never really been a crier, though. He is very sensitive and caring, but doesn't really cry. It has only been since this teacher that he has started. I think she thinks boys shouldn't cry. She told me she encourages him to write out his feelings if he doesn't want to talk (because he literally can't talk because he is crying so hard), but I believe that is after she has already been cold with him. I have seen how she treats the other kids, so I can't imagine she would treat mine any differently.

I have told my son that it is okay to cry and express feelings. I have suggested that, perhaps, before crying when he feels the start of a sad emotion to say that he feels sad and why. I have no idea, really, of what to do or say.

I agree-- this isn't about resilience.

It's about learning to deal with difficult people, all right. But think very carefully about the message that you're sending here, before deciding that this is something that you want your child to become stoic about.

When a person is toxic, (in general or just to us personally), is the answer "find a way to tolerate this situation"? Or is it "find a way to make this stop"? Or is it "know your own inner self well enough to recognize your limits as a human being-- and call a halt before it gets to 'damaging' in a major way"?

I'd argue that what most parents would LIKE for their child is the latter. Teaching them the first of those options in a setting where the toxic person has power over them is really teaching them to tolerate abuse, at least potentially.

I'm not suggesting that this teacher is being abusive-- just that stripping a child of his/her ability to express authentic feelings of distress is probably not a good way to handle it from a long-term perspective.

Learning to deal with difficult people also means learning when to walk away. That is a valid option, ultimately, between adults. We may not like the consequences of walking away, occasionally, but it is an option. The only setting which is comparable for an adult is... well, incarceration.

This isn't a situation that allows any empowerment for your child-- so it isn't really one that allows for the lesson of "choosing" or "learning" a variety of coping strategies for actively/assertively altering the nature of the interpersonal dynamic between himself and the teacher, per se. More like developing a tolerance for conduct that he essentially finds intolerable.

What if this were a peer? Think about the difference in strategic coaching you'd be offering there-- and WHY that isn't an option in dealing with the teacher instead. Consider the dynamic in light of the power imbalance that is inherent in the situation.

Yes, I agree. I definitely teach my son to be assertive- and he is with peers and adults. I suppose because it is a teacher, I am cautious to not have my son being appearingly disrespectful. The teacher is not a horrible person, just an old, old-fashioned person. I am very wary of these life lessons and I don't want to teach my son to tolerate bullies; but I feel stuck. My state is very intolerable to giftedness, but this school is great for the gifted- once they're in grade three. It's just this one teacher...

My son is such a lovely, little pleasant person that it just kills me to hear her say these things. His previous teacher described him as a "perfect student"- why is his current teacher being so unreasonable?? Why is she trying to destroy his love of learning? She can see his decline since being in her class, yet is still trying to put the blame on him. I don't understand how a.grown woman can act like this.

Yes.

Also, consider the age. It's one thing for a child to learn that sometimes he will have to learn how to work around and with difficult people, but I wonder at what age, they're really equipped to do this.

Our ds11 had an old, old fashioned teacher for part of fourth grade, and her standards were very high, but she always made sure to explain to ds that she knew he was capable of high quality work and she praised his efforts when deserved. She was strict but not abusive, and she treated everyone the same. She didn't single ds out, or anyone else out. I would try to get a sense from talking with the other parents, if your child is getting singled out, or if she intentionally humiliates. If this is the case, considering the tender age, I would ask for a different teacher.

The fact that your son wants to change schools would be a red flag for me.

I also want to add...crying is healthy, and the fact that your ds is sensitive is an asset. But society will be cruel, often unknowingly, and attempt to crush that sensitivity, by giving him the message there's something wrong with him. Thank goodness he has you to set him right. We need our sensitive children and the world needs them, whether the world fully "gets it" or not.

You do realize that she probably is doing what she thinks is effective/necessary, right? A hysterical crying fit in the classroom is disruptive, if you look at it from her perspective as a teacher, and a gentle reminder that "you're not the only person in the room" is maybe not entirely out of line. I wouldn't say that such a thing is necessarily "shaming" so much as "look around you-- you are preventing anyone else from learning right now, too," or a kindly-meant reminder of the child's surroundings. I simply do not know, but I do know that there is a huge grey area between "unconditionally loving and warm" and "cold and judgmental."

I'm going to ask you a pair of questions here that may seem offensive, and that truly isn't how I mean them. I'm going to mention it anyway because I have to keep myself in check in this same domain, and I'm trying to offer you ways to get a handle on the situation.

Is there ANY possibility-- ANY-- that your DS is picking up on your feelings, statements, etc. regarding this teacher? Even if you don't think it within the realm of possibility-- do consider it. I might ask someone else who knows you whether or not you "give off" any kind of vibe about this teacher. Her style seems very much at odds with your own parenting philosophy.

ANY possibility that he is being inflexible and refusing to try things her way? Maybe because he feels that he has your tacit permission to do that (see above question)?


Does your DS tend to be pretty flexible otherwise, or only when others tend to flex to meet HIM, or when their behavior meets somewhat narrow expectations? What range of interpersonal communication does he find acceptable? Is it pretty diverse? Dependent upon a "warm and nurturing" style (which is very clearly what he is accustomed to from home)?

Unless this is a teacher who is problematic for some percentage of families, the odds are reasonably good that part of this is a stylistic difference. I am getting the impression that you're framing this as "good/bad." Some gifted children are incredibly adept at picking up on our internal framing of things, and it's possible that this is a component of the situation as it stands. More on that later.

I still think this doesn't sound much like an emotional regulation problem in light of what you've posted... but it is probably time to take a hard look at your son's BEHAVIOR-- without any emotional/causative/interpretive labels, I mean-- and ask what others might 'see' in it.

6yo refuses to demonstrate skills or follow directions, cries when pressed for compliance/participation.

What interpretations are possible for that factual set of events?

If nothing else, it will help you in terms of advocacy in the long run to have considered that other adults may be thinking X, Y, or Z when you are thinking A or B.


It's really not fair as parents to expect that others will see our children the way that we do. They aren't the same people with us that they are with others, to start with-- so it IS possible that the child the teacher sees is not the child that you see at home. You probably already know if your child is highly manipulative, but honestly-- my DD would have been more than capable of manipulation of adults at this age. I say "probably" there because it has taken my DH over 10 years to figure out what I knew about her before she was three. He believes me now, but there were many, many years when NOBODY else saw what I saw in her.

I'm cautious before assuming that her version of events is 100% accurate and complete. It's not that I'd have assumed she (or anyone else) was lying, exactly... just that her desire for avoidance would quite readily lend itself to all kinds of quirky coping mechanisms, some of them almost unthinkably Machiavellian/Stoic/manipulative for a child that age.

My DD is a lovely child with others (mostly). It's only with her intimate friends/family that she demonstrates some of her more appalling conduct. Usually. I also know a handful of children who follow the opposite pattern... which is quite toxic, since those parents legitimately have NO idea what their little angels are like with others. (shudders)

Why did I venture down this path, knowing that it probably comes across as at least somewhat offensive?

Because one really should not assist perfectionist-inclined children in avoiding things they fear/dislike. I've made this mistake, in thinking that I was "rescuing" my DD from situations that she indicated were horribly toxic for her. It wasn't until she tried this with her piano teacher that I cried foul (after all, I'd been witnessing the interaction, and I knew what her teacher was doing/saying to her). At that point, I took a long hard look at how she had been using me as a tool to escape situations that she found more challenging than she liked. She was using ME to shape her environment like the princess and the pea... It wasn't consciously manipulative conduct on her part... but she definitely knew when her dad or I were the least bit uncomfortable with another adult, and she could play that like a Stradivarius by the time she was four or five.

My momma-bear impulses are very strong. Sometimes too strong.

My way isn't the only way... and sometimes it isn't always the "right" way for my DD, either. It's taken me a long time to let go of that, though, and let her learn from other adults, even those that I would find (personally) quite difficult to work with, or with whom I disagree. (I find it hard to let go with adults that I think are too "soft" on my DD, personally.)

Have you asked your DS what he is willing to take ownership of, in his interactions with the teacher? I would definitely do that. If his answer is a sulky denial that he is responsible for his behavior, well, then that isn't accurate, either, right?

He is choosing not to comply with the teacher's instructions. He is capable. (right?) He's refusing, which is a different matter. (This refusal indicates either lack of ability or lack of maturity to other adults, in all likelihood, so he's really not helping you-- and as much as I didn't WANT to do it, I did start letting my DD know when her behavior was getting in the way of my advocacy for her at about this age. IMMV, of course.)

Ask what his behavior is accomplishing, and follow the threads. Why is he willing to pay the "cost" for the behavior? What is the payoff? Why is that a reasonable price in his mind? Is it autonomy? Something else about the classroom environment?



Bottom line:

if she is truly an awful and incompetent teacher, then no reasonable parent would continue sending a 6yo into her care day after day. If that is NOT the case, exactly, then can you find a way to work WITH the teacher so that your DS can, too? If you can't re-frame things in a way that allows for her methods to be "reasonable" and at least neutral in your mind, you're probably better off pulling him, regardless of which of you is "right." Nothing good can come of putting your DS in the middle of that.

(BTDT, by the way.)


Again, my apologies because I strongly suspect that I will have touched a couple of nerves with this post. I'm truly not judging you either way, nor suggesting that your son needs to "toughen up" (my goodness NO). Please know that. I'm very sad for the clear distress this situation is causing both you and your child.

Haha!! Yup. I can relate to both of these observations...

oh, this actually just brought some memories back from this past year of DS4.10 in preschool. I ended up asking his teacher to STOP telling him it's ok to cry! The story was, he'd suddenly start crying over every little thing. And I mean EVERYTHING! When I asked why, the answer was "the teacher told me that crying makes you feel better!" Except in our case it completely misfired! He was already sensitive before this and ended up being a basket case. To add to the whole disaster, DS3.3 is seriously allergic to his brother's crying, whining, complaining. He'll freak out, he'll start crying hysterically because he really picks up on his emotions and in the end, the younger one will run to the older one and smack him on top of his head to make him stop crying! Those were some disastrous 4 weeks before we got it somewhat under control! So, now I have a deal with DS4.10 that he only cries when he's actually hurt so we know something really IS wrong and when he needs to feel better he'll ask for a hug! lol

Oh dear. That's the other side of things, I suppose.

No offence taken, HowlerKarma. I know that can be the case for some. My son is great, he really is. As I have posted before, he has never had a tantrum in his whole life (except for a short, recent one over losing at chess to an adult). He has always been very reasonable, and he is a great communicator. He also loves rules, and is very pedantic.

I have heard from other parents that she isn't a very good quality teacher: she is disorganised, she is overly strict, and isn't very friendly with the parents. I see her with other children and she isn't nice to them, either. On a recent excursion, the was a boy who had just moved to the country two days beforehand. He did not want his dad to leave him. We were about to leave, and Mrs F wanted him to stop crying. All she did was repeat over and over, "Stop crying now, go eat your snack". Then she brought in five different teachers to tell him to stop, with them saying ceuel, unhelpful things, like, "Gee, you'd think it was the end of the world", with an eye roll. This boy cried for about two hours. All he needed was to be told that he will see his daddy in a few hours.

I was originally happy my son had her because she was strict. Despite my hippy dippy parenting my son is naturally inclined towards authority. His previous teacher was quite pedantic and he loved her. But she isn't strict in the same way. She has incredibly high expectations- which my son is capable of, but my son expects manners from her, too. She also lacks the routine my son craves; their class is always the last out of class, and my son rarely gets to do his weekly show and tell (I don't know about the others), and whenever she gives him the requested confidence-building assignments (like, making his own physics book and teaching the class) she doesn't end up letting him do it.

My son doesn't have a problem with any other adult; he has quite a few different interactions of different pedagogies through basketball, chess club, and tuition. I don't think the other kid would be aware of her lack of routine, etc.

One of the times he cried when he had a.writing assignment and wasn't sure where to start. Rather that help him arrive to a conclusion, she just repeatedly questioned why it was so hard for him to know what to do. I can't think of the other time. I know there have been a couple of other times he has refused to talk to her.

Once again, she isn't a bad, evil teacher... Just perhaps old and exhausted lol (she has a lot of time off for a sore back). She doesn't believe in gifted children, and the first thing she said to me at the beginning of the year was that she wouldn't give my son harder work because there's too many kids to give him something different; all get students get the same work because it's it's too hard for her. She changed her tune, I thought, when she started giving him an unorganised bunch of random maths stuff. Also, a recent complaint also brought about extension in all areas- which Mrs F was not happy about. That may be why she has done a 180 on her changed view on my son.

Sorry, I am on my phone so it is hard for me to respond to every question!

This is how it is, unfortunately. Incredibly sad. There is little patience for crying, and it is seen as emotional immaturity. I'm lucky that my son hasn't had a reason to cry until now, because if he experienced this harshness as a younger child, it would have ruined his spirit.

This earlier thread of yours
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/160122/Social_issues.html
convinced me that your son is being bullied by a teacher, and this thread reinforces that.

My son was in class with a difficult teacher at the beginning of his K year. She would gripe at one little boy for being too tall, tell the children they could not sit certain ways on the floor, expected all to quietly sit and color to begin their day.

Much of her approach was very lazy teaching. My child had been an exemplary student the previous year (also full day at same school) and had never had issues at school. There was a traumatic event unrelated to this teacher that made things worse but he mostly had her all day and she was very cool with all the children. She clearly did not like my son and he knew it.

My child also had undiagnosed challenges that significantly affected his ability to perform in her "all overheads and worksheets" teaching method. However, not understanding all the impacts, my husband and I continued to try to help him work through it. School refused to move him to another teacher despite very significant reasons to do so and her unwillingness to give any effort at resolution. Mind you this is a pricey private school.

Our result was a painfully affected child who has been riddled with anxiety and began pulling his hair out literally. (Later diagnosed with Anxiety Disorder w/ elements of PTSD.) We did pull him out at this point realizing how bad it had become. I regret everyday he was in her class. She was too tired of teaching to be effective and she clearly disliked many of her students.

When he got in to a better school situation his hair grew back. His nightmares began to go away and we saw him begin to go back to who he had been before. It was much worse than we ever knew in that classroom and I would urge you to listen to your child. You know him. You've seen some very bad things happening. If his teacher acts this way when she knows parents are watching, what do you think she would say and do when parents aren't around to witness it?

So sorry you have found yourself in such a situation... Is there a possibility of homeschool and return the following year to this school if you desire?

It's one thing for an adult to "put up" with a situation like this, but it can be terribly difficult for a child to have to deal with. Our ds had a teacher conflict in 2nd grade that resulted in him developing anxiety so severe that he was very close to being considered clinically depressed, and was having severe panic attacks that were affecting him at home as well as at school. No amount of "teaching" would have worked to make him able to "put up" with the issue he had with the teacher in the classroom - and she was in fact a good, enthusiastic, involved teacher - she was simply not a good fit for my ds that year. We eventually "got it" that the classroom situation was the root of his anxiety, and we switched him to a different teacher and his world changed completely - anxiety gone, panic attacks gone. It doesn't sound like your ds is in that severe of a situation, but I wanted you to know that by listening to our ds and switching him out of the classroom we weren't teaching him to run away from a problem at all - instead we were giving him something that he really needed. There will be plenty of opportunities as you go along through life to help your ds learn not to run away from a difficult situation, but right now I would worry more about the potential anxiety this teacher and classroom may be causing him.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks for everyone's responses, I really appreciate it

I am beginning to think the bullying is directed at me. Today I received my son's report card for the year, they were awesome results all round. Even in the section of socialising he received top marks. Her personal comments were also accurate- it's like another teacher wrote it. I'm thinking she says these things to me to "teach me a lesson" about interfering in her work. However, I am happy with the report, and I don't see how my son could possibly be denied grade skipping with all the A's, plus the great social marks.

My son is on holidays for two weeks as of this weekend, so he is feeling better. It's only 20 weeks... Then, hopefully, he can move on to where he needs to be. Otherwise, as he does not want to be homeschooled, I will have to find another school.

I think she is just lazy, rather than a bully. She is, like, 60 years old.

Our DD8 wants to be in school to have a lot of friends, but K was toxic, and we pulled her out and homeschooled her, with the idea that she'd be eligible for the GT class in 1st, so that will be better. That year left a lot to be desired, but DD endured the year in public school. Then came 2nd grade, which was toxic again, so we pulled her out and homeschooled again. We skipped her past 3rd, and she's enrolling again in public school in 4th grade, where the GT services increase again.

Having experienced toxic school environments and homeschooling, DD still remains committed to going to school every day, but she definitely enjoyed homeschooling, and today she feels pretty good knowing that homeschooling is a viable option.

The key is that we always offered homeschooling as a temporary option, so she could still dream about a future that involves her sitting in a class full of friends and learning. Maybe you can frame it this way for your DS and get homeschooling back on the table as an option.

I asked my son if he would like to be hs for the rest of the year, to which he replied "absolutely not". So, no... I offered him all his favourite subjects, but still, no... After only getting a B in English in his report, he has said that he will read to her from now on. Hopefully she will leave him alone, then. So I don't think it will be tooooo bad for him; he is pretty resilient as it is. I don't think he would suffer psychologically from remaining in the class, I'm just scared that he will lose his love of learning. I'm hoping the holidays will rejuvenate his mind, since we are doing lots of educational fun activities, plus he's getting extra maths. He's always wanted longer blocks of time, so he is very happy.