Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Peer mentoring successes

DS's preschool teacher pulled me aside this morning to ask me about our plans for K. She expressed her opinion that K was not likely to be a great fit and that homeschooling would be better, but we're going to leave that aside for now. She told me that she has been having DS help other children with their reading, writing, counting, etc and that he is patient, kind, and helpful. I absolutely believe this. I think DS is probably the kind of GT kid who is a good fit for peer mentoring (as opposed to my DD, for whom it was a disaster). I asked him about it today and he says he likes it.

Next year he will likely be in a K/1 split with a very wide range of abilities, including kids who are unlikely to even know letters. What are your thoughts on him helping other kids in this environment? How can we make sure that he is not doing too much of this instead of learning anything himself? I'd like guidance from other parents whose kids did this with success.

So you don't feel that this is giving him overinflated self-importance, confusion about his role, anything like that? Are any other children doing this?

My DS is not shy, nor has he had any behavior problems. He is well-liked, though I think sometimes the other kids are not sure what he is going on about. However, he actively dislikes preschool and it is a struggle to get him there in the morning, despite his teachers working to accommodate him.

I remember helping out other kids in my class. I never felt like I was more than them or had any other negative feelings. What I do remember is being really happy that I didn't have to just sit being bored waiting for other to do their thing. I loved it as a way to kill time. There was no such thing as reading books when you were done. In fact being caught while reading book in class, even when you had everything finished resulted in a major disciplinary actions! So anything that would let me not be bored always waiting for something was HUGE for me. I also still remember how frustrated I was when they'd not let me get ahead in the book / work sheets. Oh, all these memories that are coming back to me seeing my kids turning out to be just like their mommy, or even "worse", they are taking it all one step ! lol

DS4.5 is only in pre-K but his teacher did mention that he helps a lot too.

Helping/teaching others, beyond the social skills aspect can also help your kid improve their meta cognitive skills, theory of mind and such. Because when you understand it automatically, it is hard to slow yourself down to understand how you got there without such an avenue or a real savvy teacher.

This is complicated somewhat by the fact that I live in a universal preschool state. By law, all children in free preschool (which he is) must receive a certain curriculum, so he has to do all this stuff--letters, counting, writing his name. This doesn't take the whole day, but it takes some time every day.

But preschool is almost over anyway. What I'm wondering is whether or not to point next year's K teacher in this direction.

Definitely didn't work for my DS - not only did it involve dreaded unnecessary revisions and repetitions, he had to revise and repeat with, to and for other kids that didn't quite get it. Uber frustrating.
I think there's a difference between being in a leadership role such as being in charge of the library books or recycling bin for a day (which every kid in DDs class has a chance to do anyway) and actually trying to *teach*. Not even every adult teacher can teach effectively, let alone trying to get a kid to do it.
Either way, neither of those things is what I'd accept as educating my kid appropriately.

This was a lovely opportunity to develop leadership and mentorship skills outside a school setting as a child, and I remember enjoying teaching several friends to read, but I resented being made to be an unpaid staff member in school. In school, I knew that other children were learning, but that it was at the expense of *my* foregone opportunity to learn. Contrary to your concern that it causes arrogance, being a peer mentor made me feel ignored and unappreciated because my needs weren't being met.

I hope the contrast between those two scenarios was helpful.

I was the teaching assistant for 4 years (1st-4th) until I moved to a larger school with gifted curriculum. I loved helping people and still do BUT.. I think this was exceptionally unfair to me. It spotlighted me as different, it gave me work that I was untrained for (although had natural talent for), and as Aquinas stated it cost me what I was supposed to receive which was the opportunity to learn something. From my experience, if my child were to be "used" or kept busy in that capacity I would be strongly advocating against it. I personally find it incredibly unfair and inappropriate.

I appreciate the input. This was such an obvious failure when it was tried with my DD that everyone knew not to continue with it. In this case, where the teacher reports that he is good at it and he seems to like it, I find myself uncertain. He is the youngest, and we are not having more children, so I like the idea of him having an opportunity to guide and he a leader sometimes.

I probably sound very defeatist, but I don't expect him to be instructed at his level in K and 1 anyway. He reads around the 4th grade level, maybe above, and math is easily 2nd grade (could be higher with instruction, but he doesn't know things like time, measurement, etc.) He will move to his sister's GT magnet in grade 2. Basically, we need to keep him from completely dying on the vine for a couple of years.

I am not sure if any of you have ever faced this argument, but I regularly told that "the evidence shows that when mixed ability readers are paired for reading that they both improve more than in like pairs - but it's the stronger reader that improves the most". This is used as an argument for mixed ability everything, and how good it is for stronger/brighter students to be paired with weaker kids - that they will learn so much more by having to teach their peers. I think there are important lessons to be learned from helping others, both in terms of being able to explain/teach what you may have learned automagically and "just know", to say nothing of increasing patience, kindness, tolerance, etc. But I am pretty certain this research is based on children that are within a stones throw of each other (say 5-10 reader levels apart, not 3-5 years reading ability apart). I would not be happy (and am not happy right now) with my child to be getting no real instruction at her level and spending all her time in mixed ability groups because it's supposedly teaching her something. Some of the time absolutely, but not all of it. And I am not convinced that it is that great for a child who is struggling with basic concepts of reading or math to regularly have the youngest kid in the class as their teacher/reading pair because it's supposedly good for both of them? My Dd is skipped, so she's not just the youngest, she's far and away the youngest.

DS happens to be very tall and rather athletic, so he will not be one of these tiny kids who seems young. He isn't young, in fact--he's a winter bday.

I have indeed heard that peer mentoring is great, etc etc. I should look up those studies. I tend to agree that it seems like it probably works when ability differentials are relatively small. I can't see how much DS is learning academically by saying, "No, this is an A." Socioemotionally, possibly, but it seems like there are some real Achilles heel possibilities.

All the schools here have "buddy" programs where the older grades pair up with a younger class, usually one lesson per week or fortnight. It's clearly got lots of benefits socially and kids of both ages love it. But I don't see the school arguing it's for the older children's academic learning benefit.

Oh yep, Mo3, DD's class has 'buddy readers' where kids from a higher grade come to read to them. And DD reads better than her buddy

Our buddies lessons are usually spent on craft or projects...

Ha--yeah. We had that when DD was in K. She read better than her buddy, too.

DS is having a surprisingly good experience right now (first grade) under somewhat different conditions. A new child recently joined the class without a word of English - he now has an aide but for the first few days the teacher was using Google Translate. DS clicked with him so the teacher paired them up. Now they are both given extra leniency in moving around and talking, DS is stretched by learning a bit of Spanish, and the teacher is also giving him extra privileges (like iPad time to pursue his own interests) as a reward.

But... I do remember feeling a lot of anxiety, at this age, about working with other kids and what I should do if they didn't understand. I think you are right to make sure there are limits set and your DS is learning at his own level, not just patiently working with agemates.

I'm in a funk about this. Teachers likely don't realize the impact their brief conversations can have at times. DS's preschool teacher was sort of chipper and cute about "Oh, you can't possibly put him in K! He's just so far ahead! Ha ha ha! It's ridiculous! What are you going to DO with him??" Even when I said, "Well, he will hopefully be in this K/1 split," she shoook her head and said, "I don't think that's going to be enough! You need to think about homeschooling!" But not in a doom and gloom way. I think she finds him adorably precocious, which he is, but it's big, to say those things to a parent, when you've had the child as a student every day all year. I didn't initiate this conversation at all, which makes it worse.

I'm just terribly worried about him. I suck as an advocate in the schools. I am not naturally assertive and realistically, DS is not a squeaky wheel. I love my job and have no desire to homeschool him. My poor kiddo.

Ultra, here's what I think. The worry is at this point unnecessary. You've got this nice, well-adjusted little guy who's way ahead. Do I remember right that he is mostly not miserable at school, and not feeling an intrinsic need to race ahead?

Honestly, our DS10 got no "academic curriculum" that was new to him during his first few years of school, but he was learning and growing in other ways. He did a ton of advanced reading about things he loved outside of school, and a ton of learning how to participate, make friends and be a friend etc. in school. Those early grades are heavy on math and reading, but they are also heavy on play skills, handwriting, and other soft skills that are worth having.

This forum is awesome, but there is a prevailing tendency to feel that the child must be pushed to his/her limit on academics, or there's something wrong. I don't know that that's true in all cases. It is IMO okay to watch the whole picture of what your child is learning, judge whether they're learning in the big picture sense, and decide not to pursue the perfect academic fit for a while.

If a child is becoming depressed and frustrated, or isn't learning (in the big picture sense), then you can push for and make a change. If the K-1 split isn't a good fit, trust that you will notice, and trust yourself to determine better options when they're needed.

DeeDee

No, unfortunately...this is not the case. He seemed fine for about the first half of the year, and then things fell apart. It has been a struggle to get him to school every single day for months,with attendant tears on many occasions. His complaints are that it is boring, that it's too easy, that he has to do the same things every day, and that he never learns anything. The teachers have actually tried their best to give him some additional/different work (harder puzzles, some K worksheets; they write instructions for him instead of giving them orally, and have given him some other tasks in the classrtom to help with, I think). He is allowed to bring in books from home to read. He has friends and likes playground and center time, but he does not like going to school and is very vocal about it. He remains well-behaved, so that is thankfully not an issue. I after-school him some and he likes that.

My feelings about DS and school have done a total about-face this school year. I was not worried about school for him really at all earlier in the year, because he is such a tractable and cheerful little dude and is also very social. Now I have seen that he can really become...depressed by school. He is actually doing worse in this school than DD ever was in the school we pulled her out of. He seems fine on the weekends and when out of school. It's clearly school-related and really, really different than anything we have gone through with his sister, where it's always been "Is it school? Oh, hell...who knows?"

Very late here, but I think this is worth emphasis. DD has loved being a math tutor.

On the other hand, I also think that the reason for that is that it is in a clearly defined instructional space-- NOT as a part of peer interactions within a regular class where both student and tutor are currently enrolled.

That would make me uneasy with the practice.

It always makes DD uneasy, too-- and she's had a number of teachers use her work as "examples" for the rest of the class, which she most emphatically does NOT enjoy, even when it is done anonymously. It makes her very uncomfortable.

Yes. The reason why this is okay for my DD is twofold:

a) clearly defined role and boundaries exist on the peer tutoring environment. My DD is "available" for just four hours a week, and the students come to her.

b) they have NO IDEA that she is mostly very many years younger than any of them-- thank you, virtual environment.

I'd argue for some really clear boundaries so that "school" isn't synonymous with "unpaid teacher's aide" for your child. BTDT as a middle schooler, and boyyyyyy, did I not like that.

Sorry, Ultra, I sometimes get mixed up about whose kid is doing how.

Is a gradeskip an option? Would he get any appropriate work in the K-1 split? Is there another local school that would be better suited? Is there an amazing teacher who can do serious, sustained differentiation? Can he become a first grader in a 1-2 split instead, giving him access to the 2nd grade work while still being with peers close to his size/age?

You might not need to bring in any big guns to solve this; what is your district's acceleration policy? It ought to help that the school people know your DD?

(And you have probably answered all those before elsewhere; but the search function doesn't get me there very fast.)

I think HK's perspective on being the teacher helper is a good one.

DeeDee

I had previously heard that the school is open to skipping. However, we attended a school event recently and the principal (newish) said she is NOT open to it. So...bleh. I have no idea about the district.

The tricky thing about skipping him in any case is that we do plan for him to go into the magnet at grade 2, and I'm not confident he could handle the workload/written work expectations in the magnet with a skip in place.

Our other school options at this point are only private (not possible w/o a scholarship and I don't know how much it would help, but I may inquire about one school I know of) and charter. I'm not optimistic about the charters, as I know the landscape pretty well.

I asked his preschool teacher what she thought about a full skip. She said he was completely ready academically and physically, but was a little concerned about his perfectionism and occasional tendency to cry easily. I'm not thinking these things are going to go away with another year, but it's true that they exist, although to me they don't seem terribly major.

The principal pretty much has to articulate this as a policy to keep folks from beating down the door. Skips are not routinely offered in our district, nobody says they exist; yet there IS a policy in place that permits it, and a clear process. And it happens, more routinely than anyone knows until they're in the process.

That is not to say you should absolutely skip him. Only that you might find it useful to schedule a conversation between the pre-K teacher who thinks your DS needs so much more, the principal at the new school, and you. Sort of a "get to know ya" deal. Do you have any evidence of work he's done to show?

Sometimes if it's just a mom they think "all moms think their kid is brilliant," but if it's the dad and/or another teacher saying so they believe it.


That makes sense. Is it clear to you that a subject acceleration would make a difference, or is there an area where differentiation would be fairly straightforward for this particular kid? If so, you could suggest those options. I will say (have said it before here) that it's really, really hard to get this kind of thing done in K-- they are trying to bring all kids up to the minimum, not really advance anyone past the baseline.


Doesn't sound major to me either.

Would there be any merit to putting him into 1 now, letting him do 2, and then undoing the skip in the transition to the gifted magnet? Does the curriculum work in such a way that this is possible?

DeeDee

Will your DS be going to the elementary school which houses the gifted magnet? It might not be that bad in a K/1st split classroom. I presume there might be siblings like him.

I have only one hopeful expectation as far as academics go next year. And, that is that I really hope the school make some effort to help DD feel secure about her level of reading--that it is good, ok, normal, not something she needs to hide. Otherwise, the curriculum seems really fun, explorative, and open-ended, even the literacy stuff. Maybe this is a perk of an independent school.

I think peer mentoring should be utilized in all classrooms. Like someone said, it is great for development of Theory of MInd stuff. But, it won't help in a poor school fit. And, it should not be relied upon to ameliorate that.

I have always thought that your DS would be a good candidate for a skip. You know him best. Maybe explore a skip in a private school setting until second grade.

It's worth noting that his writing is not where everything else is. It's probably 1st grade, but not high 1st grade. Frankly, I don't see that reading and math are realistically going to be accommodated. Let me be clear that *I* don't care that much if he doesn't learn a lot in these areas, because I agree with you that school is about a lot more than this, and honestly I am a realist and don't expect a kindergarten teacher to be able to teach a child working significantly above level. The problem is that HE does really seem to care, a lot. This was such a surprise, because he has always seemed to be my less driven child. Maybe there is something else going on in his current environment that is not good (I don't know what--it really seems fine) and next year will be really different.

I am increasingly thinking that boys in general tend to express their dissatisfaction with learning environment fit more directly than girls do in general (ie more likely to get school refusal "because it's boring", "we never learn anything", etc. while girls seem in general more likely to complain less directly but develop other (often more self destructive rather than disruptive) manifestations of discontent - procrastination, extreme negative perfectionism, etc. maybe crying at home because "they hate school" or "there's no one like me" "I have no friends" etc. Doesn't mean the root cause is not the same, or that boys or girls are more or less driven... Note that I am generalizing and there will be plenty of exceptions.

That's an interesting thought. Maybe so. DD did express dissatisfaction, but we never came anywhere close to school refusal--she still wanted to go, I guess for the social aspect-- whereas we are pretty much toeing that line with DS. Yet he IS very social.

The variability in first grade written product is pretty stunning. There are kids whose letters are legible but can't spell well enough that you can make out the words; kids who run everything together with no spaces but write gorgeous prose; kids who are still working on making their letters face the right way. All kinds.

If your kid is ambitious (sounds like), he may rise to the level of what's around him quickly. Or not. But I am not sure I'd want handwriting alone to determine placement. It's a factor, it matters to the teachers, but it's not the only factor. If he were in a place where he was behind in HW, but getting math and reading that were closer to his level, do you think he would thrive?

Have you gone to look at K and first grade classes? I find that really helps me get a handle on what I'm signing up for.


Could be. Have you looked at the Iowa Acceleration Scale? (We got a copy of the manual through ILL.) That has criteria that help you think through whether a skip is a reasonable idea.

My feeling is that you shold not worry about the eventual placement in the magnet (be that repeating 2nd or moving ahead); your goal should be to put him in a good learning environment for the coming year, knowing that you'll figure out the next step next.

DeeDee

With regard to DeeDee's comments on handwriting - my DD skipped two thirds of what you would call K, into first. Into a 1/2 composite in fact. If her handwriting AND her writing was not the worst in her class, it was certainly close to it. One year later, despite a diagnosable handwriting disability, both her handwriting AND her writing are well above grade level (spelling, paragraphing, punctuation, handwriting, beginning-middle-end, etc). I worked 10 mins a day (school days) on handwriting with her at home instead of doing reading homework, given reading was clearly taking care of itself. The writing development came purely from whatever they discussed in the classroom (and reading of course), I gave absolutely no writing instruction of any kind at home.

I see handwriting and writing as something that you can totally "hothouse" (fairly minimally) and make massive strides with at this age (assuming there is no reason to believe he has an actual problem in this area).