Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WJ-III Achievement ?s

Hi

I am hoping one of you gurus can answer my questions. My DD6 was tested last spring on WJ ach. Her school wants to retest her. They are saying they want her retested because her scores were grade normed rather than age normed. It seems silly given she is young for the grade. I would think her percentiles would go up if her age was used not down. I thought the percentiles and SS were on age not grade. Does anyone know if the WJ- achievement percentiles or SS are age or grade normed? I am concerned the person testing has very little experience administering any kind of test. Does tester experience matter on achievement testing the way it can matter on IQ test? We have offered to bring her back to our outside tester and have the exact test they want administered to her. They don't seem to be interested in someone else testing her. It seems old given they accepted her IQ test from the same tester as valid.

Thanks for any input!

They actually should be able to just take her old scores and plug them in to get the age norms. The percentile and std scores can be calculated either way using the same set of data.

Ditto this. We were originally given a report with grade norms and it was just a matter of asking our tester to print the age normed report for us.


Maybe the school just wants updated data for your daughter? I'm not sure if you need to wait a whole year to retake this test as you would for an IQ test.

I think they do want updates. I am concern the person who would administer the test has no experience doing it. I seem to know more about these test than they do. If inexperience won't matter I am comfortable with them doing the test. If it does matter I want an experienced tester. She has been testing low on their DRA assessments all year despite doing wonderfully at home and in class. I mean way below her levels from even a year ago. I just don't want inexperienced tester bad results that get used against her. They seem to be looking for reasons to not do more. They claimed she was struggling in her Math enrichment class by bring to our meeting only worksheet she had trouble with all year. When I got to see the other worksheets done in class, she had no problems at all.

The weird thing to me, then, would be that they are using the WJ-III if they're wanting to see what her needs are in terms of current achievement. While it is an achievement test, it really doesn't line up well with the typical school curriculum and the grade equivalents (GEs) in particular can be rather screwy in young kids.

I just had dd14's old WJ-III scores from when she was a 2nd grader out (we're updating a bunch of school paperwork and we needed a long trail from the beginning of her testing) and she had GEs ranging from 4.4 to >18.0 on the entire thing save for two fluency sections (timed pieces, which have always been her downfall). Honestly, there is no way that she was performing at that level as a young 7 y/o, at least at the level of those upper end scores that were coming out in the high school+ range.

I, unfortunately, cannot say if the tester's experience will depress scores. Dd14 was tested by a grad student, but the grad student didn't have any reason to want to deflate scores so at least if there were mess-ups, they weren't intentional to reduce the scores.

I can see where you're worried, though, if they seem to be trying to come up with reasons not to enrich appropriately. Do you have any idea why that would be? I.e. - are they worried about setting a precedent with your dd where others start asking for more b/c she got it? Is she having a personality conflict with the math enrichment teacher? Something else?

Well I think we have a lot going on with the school and not the best history with this building, which is k-2. Her brother was tested with fluency and comprehension levels at least 5 years ahead and yet he got a "at grade level" score on DRA at this school. She was tested on wppsi and WJ Ach last spring. Her test lined up well together and with what we see her reading at home. The started off the first meeting bring the math sheet in and discuss it as a problem. In the first meeting they agreed to do an alternative reading assessment to DRA and take a look at her writing. Which I have been telling them for a year I was concerned about as did her teacher. We had a developmental opthamologist look at her last year to rule out any vision issues. The school OT looked at her and didn't see any fine motor issues other than very slight weakness. Despite her strong reading, the writing is a wreck both in content and mechanics. Occasionally I'll let her dictate her writing to me instead of her writing it. I have her tell me the exact words and punctuation to write down. The content of her dictation is appropriate and strong.

When we go back to the second meeting, they had not looked at her writing and told use the DRA was the very best test to use. Now they are scrambling to do more testing after the district level person called them. A few of the staff seemed angry before we even called the district level. Which was frustrating since we told them very clearly we were concern about the assessment not them.

I don't believe they really want to do much of anything for her other than lock n step. I don't think they are going to try to tank her results. I just don't think the person who would test her has much if any experience. They didn't plan on using the school psychologist. They plan on having guidance counselor administer the test. Which in all my years of IEPs with my older kids, I have never had of a GC administering achievement testing. When I mentioned that she barely made the age cut for her grade and that age scores might be higher than grade scores, the response was that I was wrong. That concerned me a lot. Her brother who is also young for the grade always had his age scores slightly higher when there was room to be higher. She has a room to be higher on the SS scores.

As far as conflict with people, She is the dream kid to have in a class. Bubbly, helpful and kind to everyone around her. She is the kid other teachers ask to have in their class the following year. I think they just don't want to do anything. The GT program begins in 4th grade and it is a great program, but before that nothing. The Math enrichment is weak, I would never fight over it. She comes home and enriches herself. It is once a week and grade level stuff. It is mostly logic, puzzles, and other misc. Nothing I would feel she would lose out on if she did not go to it. My DS was miserable until 4th grade. I am just trying to avoid any of that for her. She loves school in many ways but often comes homes sad about how bored she feels.

So - I think this is what you're after (ignore me if I'm wrong!) - you are concerned about appropriate intellectual and academic challenge (acceleration/differentiation), and you've had a concern about written output vs verbal output but that's not what's being targeted in the testing.

My random thoughts are:

The WJ-III type of achievement tests are the type of test that is really useful when you're trying to understand a student's strengths and weaknesses, especially when paired with ability testing. They are not (jmo) all that useful in terms of showing that a child should be grade or subject accelerated or offered subject differentiation - for that you'd want an out-of-level test that's more closely tied in with the curriculum that is taught. "Grade Level Equivalent" on the WJ-III also doesn't mean that a student has mastered everything that would be learned in an X-grade classroom, but instead works like this (someone who is more familiar with testing please correct me if I'm wrong :)) - for example, 3rd grade GLE on the WJ-III means that if a 3rd grader took the same subtest, they would score the same thing that your child scored. It *doesn't* mean that your child is ready to be in 3rd or 4th grade if they have a 3rd grade GLE. Chances are your child *is* capable of working ahead of where they are placed if they are scoring 3rd grade GLE when they are only in 1st grade, for example... but I think a test that showed mastery of the specifics covered in the curriculum taught is more useful in demonstrating to teachers that your child is ready for more. I'm also not so sure that age level equivalents mean a whole lot unless they are way way above your child's true age level since it's an achievement test which depends to a certain extent on exposure to concepts... but that's just me.

Do you think there's a chance that what they are seeing on the DRA might be real? Do you know they've tested her to where she hits a ceiling on it? Our school used to only test to grade level and no further on it. If they have tested up to her ability level, but it doesn't mesh with what they see at home, and the school is also saying she's not needing what you think she's needing in math... and you've had some worries about written output vs oral output... have you thought about private testing?

Also, fwiw, my ds has fine motor dysgraphia (diagnosed by a neuropsych and later by an SLP)... but when he had a fine motor OT evaluation - if we hadn't already known he had dysgraphia, it would not have shown up on the OT evaluation. The OT testing shows a slight weakness in fine motor skills, but that's it. The key thing about dysgraphia is it's neurological in origin - it's about how the brain communicates information, not necessarily something that would show up on an OT report as clearly dysgraphia. At least, it seems like it's something an OT might not recognize without other evidence. The place that makes it obvious that my ds is dysgraphic (other than his handwriting output lol) is in discrepancies on the timed parts of ability and achievement tests that rely on written output, and on the additional types of testing neuropsychs use to determine if those observed discrepancies are due to visual or fine motor or other types of challenges. None of which is to say that your dd is dysgraphic! I do think that it's probably typical at her age for verbal output to be far ahead of written output... but otoh... as the parent of 2e kids... if you have a suspicion something's up, I'd check it out.

Sorry for the ramble - best wishes as you advocate.

polarbear

Polarbear's advice is sound (as always).

I will add that my 2E kids' reading is not measured well by the DRA. It's a retelling-based assessment; if kids have memory issues, or issues with sequencing of ideas, or executive function problems, or expressive language problems-- any number of things-- they may score poorly on DRA even though they read and comprehend well.

Given that there are no gifted services to fight for right now, in your shoes I'd probably devote energy to figuring out whether there's a hidden disability that is causing the writing issues. It is really, really hard to get differentiation for a 2E in the early grades-- their gifts can be in effect hidden from teachers by their challenges-- but if you use that time to remediate any issues that are there, the child can more easily show their assets and get differentiation a little down the road.

Not a totally satisfying thought, but it's our family's experience.

DeeDee

Thanks for the responses. I agree with all of the comments. We have IQ and achievement private testing from last spring. Her private testing in the spring put her a couple point below her dys brother. We had that done out of a feeling that she was hiding her abilities ( claiming should could not read for like 6 to 12 months after i knew she could) and concern over the writing. Which I know is so young to worry about the handwriting output. My oldest son is dyslexic and something about her concerned me that she had similar traits to him. As her reading has gotten strong the writing as not improved at all. The scores on those assessments all seem to line up together and with what we see her doing.

The school has been test her on grade level all year. She was reading chapter books in the fall and got a tad over 50 percentile on DRA. They retested her and bumped her reading placement up in November. Her placement was higher but not a lot. She was doing well in the placement academically. The staff describe her as actively participating and know the answers to question, etc. The math placement was made in the fall by her teacher. She again only tested around 50 percentile on their math assessment. This is a timed test and she doesn't do well timed. The teacher put her in enrichment anyway because she was the first kid done everyday and getting the work done correctly. I honestly do not have a vested interest in the Math placement. A friend of mine, who teaches at the school, has always said it is a joke for enrichment.

We met with them to talk about her writing and the reading assessments. We see her reading at home as strong. Initially, they said her comprehension was weak. Which didn't jive with me at all. When pressed they said it is the retell part of the test. She needs 2 or more prompts to retell a story. When I spoke with the reading specialist, I inquired about if she felt she doesn't understand the material or if she isn't articulating the information back well. She said it was a matter of articulating the material back. Which made sense to me. I can ask her any question about something she has read and she answers the question correctly, but if I ask a for a retell it's a short limited response. I have to tell her give me more information for her to expand her response. Which she will do but only if you prompt her for more information. She has great fluency and reads with really good inflection. She will change her voice for different characters in a book, etc. The comprehension appears strong as well as her fluency.

At the first meeting they agreed to give her an alternative reading assessment and look at her writing. We got back to the second meeting and none of it had happened. They said the DRA is the very best test and they had not looked at the writing. Two weeks after our second meeting they gave her another DRA and moved her to a lower group because it was unchanged from the previous DRA. That's when I called my district contact. They got calls from the pupils services person at the district level and now are all about testing her.

I absolutely agree on the age and grade equivalents. I don't think they say anything about what level she can work at in class. I would be more interested in an out of grade level test. It was eye opening the first time my ds took an about grade level test. The school doesn't do out of grade level testing. They use DRA for reading and a similar tool for Math. My ds had it through talent search. They only responded when his ACT scores were better than graduating seniors at their high school. I did get to see a practice test for 3rd reading and Math on our state assessments and feel she would do just fine on both of them. If I could talk them into give her that I would do it.


I have wondered about dysgraphia and other written language issues with her. Which is why I am bugging the school now. I don't want to wait for her to hit a wall in a couple of years. The pupil services person really does get that 2E doesn't look the same as a regular kiddo with the same disability. They can go for years looking ok. It is possible she is not 2E, but I lean towards her being 2E. I have been bugging them about the writing from the get go. They have finally agreed to have someone work with her on written expression for an hour a week. I do think if after 4 to 6 weeks they don't see an improvement they will start to be concerned it is more than developmental. If for some reason she does improve and it's working than that is exactly what I want to see.

I don't think she is getting challenged at school, but I'm most concern about the possible underlying issues and addressing them now. I would be happy to be wrong about it. I would like her reading placement changed back to the higher group. She was doing really well according to the teacher and moving her on DRA alone seems short sighted. The reading specialist told me it didn't seem to be reflecting her levels and yet they are solely relying on it, UgH! The pupils services person did seem agree with me that she should be placed at the higher group while you work on writing instead of moving her backwards. I am hoping she gets that done for us.

As far as testing, I don't really care what tests are given, if it can help figure out the problem or give a better picture of her strengths and weaknesses. I really feel uncomfortable with the one person doing the test. I would prefer the school psych or outside testing if they really want another WJ achievement.

PolarBear was there any particular test or assessments that helped bring it to light with your DS?
Her timed test in achievement are always lower than even the teachers expect given her performance day to day at home and school. She is great at math facts until you time her. She seems to panic with a clock. She avoids writing task, drawing, coloring, etc. she does do a lot of crafty stuff requiring fine motor skills such as knitting, beading, pearled beads. She isn't fast at the crafts but slow and meticulous. The timed sections of her WPPSI were her "low" scores but they were not low at 14/15s. I didn't see anything alarming in her subtest on IQ. Really open to any suggestions on investigating this and suggest to the school as what test as most helpful in assessing her.

Thanks again for the responses ... I swear this is the place I come to not feel like a crazy person:)

This is very helpful information.