Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Working memory/executive function - how fix? Help!

Okay, so over and over again, testing reveals the same thing. My kid is really very smart; however, his working memory and organization hold him back. He scores very poorly in the working memory sections of the tests (WISC and SB-V as well as others like NEPSY and CVLT-C) ... Like, deplorably low. Specifically, he has difficulty holding an appropriate amount of information in active memory for further processing and/or mental manipulation. I can see this at home. He does not seems to come up clinically as ADD/ADHD on any assessment and I agree with that as well (though I am no expert) but he certainly has this particular problem with working/active memory and metacognition (? is that the right word?) I want to fix it or at least improve it to help him function better, learn better and be more successful. I'd hate to to see this continue to hold him back (and also it IS indeed very frustrating dealing with him at times because of it). And I wasn't sure if it was just that he is spacey (he is creative and always making up stories so I wasn't sure if that were why I see the exectutive functioning issues). He simply can not do certain tests/tasks that specifically test this skill set. Something is off, imo. What do I do to help him improve this? Cogmed? PACE? Some sort of therapy? Drugs? (kind-of kidding there but maybe supplements are known to be good/helpful?) What? I will pay the cost. I really am willing to do whatever it takes at this point because I am concerned that it is not improving with time and age. Any ideas are very welcome and appreciated! Thanks!

Can anyone help?

This sounds an awful lot like my D (now age 17). For us, there was no "fix" for it... just lots and lots of organizational scaffolding and support through the years. Me doing daily checks of her folders for class, online checks of the status of her grades, and reminding her of things. We tried about every kind of organization system there is, but almost every one fell apart. The past couple of years she has had some success with iCal on her computer. As a senior in high school, she is finally showing SOME progress on her own, but she will probably always the "absentminded professor" type. Or as we call her, "the Pigpen of paper" -- Charlie Brown reference for those too young to have followed it.

We were never able to seriously consider a grade acceleration for her because of these issues. But we supplemented a lot with summer programs (Davidson THINK among others). She has done well in high school in honors and some AP classes with some support, and we also got her extra time on standardized tests. Planning now for her launch to college next year.

I don't know much about this. I can tell you that we have worked on it in many small ways. We send our kids on small "trips" in the house ("please go to the basement and bring back one can of chicken broth") that reinforce the skill of keeping something in your head. One can also design the trip to be unsuccessful, which requires a little metacognition ("the item isn't here; now I have to go back to Mom and ask for help"). This sort of exercise does seem to improve that capacity.

You might look at Nancy Ratey's books on coaching for ADHD-- I think one is called The Disorganized Mind. She's very practical.

DeeDee

I don't have any answers although I do understand what you are going through. My son is similar. He can't seem to remember simple things. Just yesterday, I sent him to brush his teeth an went to check on him and he was in the shower! I asked what he was doing and he said "you told me to take a shower". I said, no, you were supposed to brush your teeth, you've already had a shower. Oh, he said, that's right, I am supposed to be brushing my teeth.

Have you tried fish oil as a supplement? That seemed to help a little. We are looking at Neurofeedback Therapy so you might check into that. There was a discussion a while back about it:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/145803/1.html.

I don't know anything about Cogmed or Pace so I'm not much help. Hang in there.

It's kind of sad in a way that it isn't AdHd. Then perhaps i could try meds. but i believe he doesnt have Add/ADHD. I can see why it isnt coming up. however, this profile/weakness is a big problem! When researching it on the Internet I found that 70% of kids with dyslexia have this specific problem/weakness. I still think looking at his test results he has mild/stealth dyslexia or dysgraphia even though it looks like the psych doesn't believe that to be the case ( he is below average in phonome and has the working memory issues but is above grade level in reading and 2 years behind in writing (despite years of OT which he now does twice weekly!)

Anyway, Thanks for the suggestions all and keep 'em coming !

Hi Mary, I'm curious if there are times when his working memory functions at a high level? Like if he is focused on his own project or such? It could be he always has an internal "master plan" going on that distracts him from things that are outside it (sometimes mislabeled daydreamer.) I'd think figuring out if this memory, attention, motivation, or another factor might be key. It might also be possible that while his brain his catching up with eye therapy that it is demanding a lot of processing. Maybe try some verbal memory games with his eyes closed?

Sounds like basic executive function issues... sadly there are no peer-reviewed/scientific "fixes" for these issues. There are lots of things that MIGHT help - fish oil supplements, vitamin D supplements, neurofeedback, etc. We personally do fish oil, since it's not going to hurt anything, and try and have supports setup. Hopefully those parts of his brain development will catch up sooner rather than later.

Thanks zen...see he's weird because as even in the eval it was noted that his attention and focus are quite good even on difficult tasks and tasks he considers boring... He is very amenable to motivation as well. But where he seems to break down is sequencing / sequential and multi- step tasks? Like he literally can't keep the stuff in his head . His visual memory is fantastic btw. See here is an example of his odd profile - he was great at digit spam going forward but can't do it at all going backwards ( again I have read this is very common with dyslexics). I was thinking its related to the vision issues so I thought I'd see improvement since he's been doing vision therapy for nine months now. However, he seems to be remaining the same with this WM deficit.

Sorry if my posts are not so great I am typing on my phone!

I should add I am not sure exactly what the psych thinks as she simply sent me report, scores and observations - no conclusions yet. We are suppose to meet to discuss.

Attention/lack of attention isn't actually a great indicator of ADHD. My son scores really highly (non-adhd) on the Conner's-type tests... but he's totally ADHD.

My DD is a bit like that but not quite to the extreme. Her working memory scores are well below average but not as low as the processing speed. She does get alot "worse" when she's tired or stressed out, and if she's given verbal instructions in a noisy environment, she'll have no recollection.

I can't help with advice with more formal programs, but some things I do with DD are

1- ask her to repeat back what I just said or asked her to do, (I try to make good eye contact when I do this, but if you're just yelling up from the basement can you get me the yellow flashlight, that's harder!!)
2- write down as much stuff as possible for daily tasks or things you've agree to. Lots of color is good for my DD or allowing her to pick the format, where it goes, etc.
3-make as many natural consequences affect her as possible within reason (like losing points for forgetting a book report instead of me reminding her of things like this constantly).

I've found that continuously emphasizing her strengths (by allowing her to make efforts and achieve in these areas) as I go about working on the challenges makes a big difference. This makes DD more open to working on the challenges and helps her see herself in a whole, balanced way.

...and my DD is also very high on visual learning (that's part of the whole stealth dsylexia mystery) and demonstrates very high focus and follow-through on things she's interested in or has on her mind at any given time (that's more the absent-minded professor thing...they're thinking about their findings from an archaeological dig and not which coat they should wear or if they should grab the coat before they walk out the door LOL).

It does sound a bit in the dyslexic range. Actually sounds quite familiar to me (though I don't have dyslexia.) Interesting given the common strabismus starting point.

So, if I want to remember verbal information, I have to visualize or doodle or find a pattern in it. Definitely need the top down view of things... I can't see the trees if I don't first see the forest. It may be he needs help in finding these kind of strategies, or it could be something else.

Like I said, I do buy that he isn't ADHD ... (But i am no doctor or expert) I could try ADHD drugs I guess but I hate to do that when I also believe that he isn't truly ADHD but his executive function and working memory is really deficient . It's weird in my heart I know SOMETHING is wrong but I also feel in my heart it really isn't ADHD/ADD. But what to do. I don't know ... Maybe I am wrong ... Maybe I should be pushing for an ADHD dx

All of your posts are great - good info ! It's so weird, isn't it? Bzlzy, my DS seems very similar to your dd. zen, yes it's some sort if processing problem - and yes maybe resulting somehow from strabismus ...

You might not want my advice, but I'd just take a deep breath and try some daily strategies and do more research before you push for a dx that might not be appropriate.

Does your DS have a Feb. vacation? We have it here, it's really great timing. Time for a breather from school, do lots of fun stuff even if just at home all day.

Have you read books like The Dyslexic Advantage (whether or not he is dyslexic, that's type of "top down" thinking), Misdiagnosis/Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and all that?

Also Dr. Thomas Armstrong has a site and books that I really like for "neurodiverse" kids.

http://institute4learning.com/neurodiversity.php

I forget how old your DS is - have you asked him what he thinks might work for strategies (not the big therapy issues, just day-to-day things) or gotten his opinion? I think many of us get into the pattern of one-way communication with our kids when we're trying to help them. I've found my DD(9) loves to be drawn in to the plan, but sometimes it's hard to stay in the productive/strategic mode and not fall back on the direct/remind mode.

I'll respond individually more when I get on my laptop but really appreciate ALL the thoughts and advice and all of the posts

and p.s. my DD was diagnosed by a behavioral optometrist as having convergence insufficiency. The pediatric opthalmologist absolutely disagreed, said it is the way her brain is wired (actually upon doing some research this opinion is more closely associated with things I've read by the Eides). So we're between a rock and a hard place there...that's another thread.

If our DS and DD sound similar, I would really try emphasizing strengths like crazy and engage him in his own learning about his profile and things that might work for him. My DD started the whole color-coding thing before I even read about it in one of Thomas Armstrong books. It gave me goosebumps - maybe my kid knows more what's best for her than all the adult "experts"!!

Bzyly, of course I want your advice! No haven't read those books! Yet!

There are a ton of techniques to leverage strengths. One of my favorite is building a mental map of a walk through a location and using the visuals in those locations to associate with items in a list. It is a very common tool in memory competitions.

Here's a link describing the method:
http://www.mindtools.com/pages/article/newTIM_05.htm

Mind mapping is another tool that plays to visual-spatial + creativity strengths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_map

I'd definitely go with bzylzy on exploring methods and ideas with your son.

It's ironic because my DS has the ADHD diagnosis you need for meds, but I don't want to try meds. Isn't it funny how it works out sometimes.

My neighbour's MG DS10, who has similar issues to yours, was assessed for ADHD and didn't meet the criteria either. Instead they've worked with an OT to try and coordinate his central nervous system. I guess the theory is the OT activities stimulate areas of his brain and force the right and left hemispheres to work together (I think that's what his mom told me - I could be mistaken).

Have you tried OT?

He does OT for hypotonia but not for any working memeory/executive function issues. Let me ask you this - do the meds your son is on specifically help him do remember muti-tasks and remember sequences? My guy isn't running around hyper-active, he doesn't have impulse control problems, he focuses well, he is mostly very attentive... He has problems "remembering" things, especially remembering sequences - he can't tie his shoes (because he can't get the sequence aspect of it down), he can't remember left from right, if I tell him to do three things - he may forget one but mostly what he has problems with is if he is suppose to do the things in an order, ykim? Do meds help that? For example, if he were really add/adhd and he got meds would he be able to the digit span test backwards?

If I were to put him on meds (and I am not a doc so obviously I can't just try it on my onw but I totally feel like I could shop around for a doc or even persuade his pediatrician to try him on adhd/add meds) and he were truly add/adhd would I see that stuff immediately improve like a "light switch"(given the right med, dosage and that he is really add/adhd)? Because if so, it may be worth a shot really. I don't want to turn my back on something that really could help, ykim? Even if I am skeptical that is the true problem.

I could ask where he gets his OT for hypotonia if the do OT for working memory/executive function... I know they offer like a group class thing for it (but you have to 8 or 9 to take it - he's not old eneough for it yet)

my DD has never been on meds but we know plenty of ADHD friends - they are fun kids! - and I honestly don't know any of them as having an immediate fix. Either they need a different type, different dose, or something else to counteract side effects, like lack of sleep. But others who have direct experience might be able to better answer.

I am going to talk tomorrow to his private OT about doing OT for it and seeing if that helps! I looked on their website and it said they do OT for ADD/ADHD so it looks like they could help. Good Idea CCN! At least I feel like we can try something to address/help! I am also going to ask if his school OT could help with it as well - after all, the info on his poor working memory and executive function issues are all laid out in his school psych report... we'll see. I mentioned it to his vision doctor and he said he could work some working memory into his vision therapy (that surprised me, actually)

By the way, Bzylazy, I wanted to comment on this. Today my son did he three month eval with his vision doc and they give him all kinds of tests to see if the VT is helping, where he is still struggling, etc. Anyway, he did a near point test and again I could "see" my son's eye cross and then his eyes physically and obviously became very irritated during the test. Seeing this means to me that no other doctor could tell me my kid doesn't have intermittent convergent strabismis. I literally saw his left eye quickly cross in while his right eye stayed straight... when this happened his eyes became red and irritated looking, then started watering as he tried to continue the exercise but the left eye crossed in a few times and caused him more irritation, fatigue and inability to keep his eyes working (basically he couldn't keep them following a target together - he physically struggled to get them physcially focused.) I don't know what type of convergence issue your daughter has but maybe seeing her do some of the tests could help you feel more sure in one of the doctor's opinions/diagnosis. Just a thought as it sounds like you don't know what/who to believe.

Do you know about the difference between the different types of ADHD? There is something called ADHD predominantly inattentive type, which is different from the stereotype.

It can cause memory issues, problems with sequencing tasks, and executive function glitches.

I would not under any circumstances just doctor-shop and try meds. I'd get someone who really knows what they're doing to evaluate for ADHD-- a neuropsych can do a battery of tests where the pattern of glitches will reveal ADHD if it is there.


I should warn that in our experience OTs claim to be able to fix many things that they cannot fix. (I realize that others' mileage will vary.) Nothing an OT has done has ever improved our kids' ability to function in that regard.

For younger kids (1st-2nd grade, say), the only thing that is proven to work on ADHD is meds; as they get older you can do more and more behavior training and coaching on workarounds so that they learn to manage themselves. But again, I would not attempt to diagnose this, nor would I let the general pediatrician prescribe this kind of medication for my kid.

HTH
DeeDee

Yes, but, of course, it's not like I am super knowledgeable in this area. However, my undertsanding of that type is that such children may appear to be underactive, daydreamers, etc...instead of working on their math, they might be gazing into space. When the teacher calls on them, they may have no idea of what is being discussed and that they don't absorb new information well - basically they have difficulty concentrating. And the problem is my DS concentrates and attends very well, he doesn't lose track of or ever have any trouble following a discussion (seriously EVER) (in fact he constantly gets high grades and much praise for contributing to class discussion and "attending" to what is being discussed in class. He can remember discussions, books read to him, etc... He learns new info fast and well.

I even asked his teacher who has a son with those of adhd and she said she doesn't see it either (though she sees workingmemory issues - he has no trouble staying on task in his classwork, staying completely in target in discussions, etc). BUT she is not a doctor (and in the past some teachers have hinted he has had it - we actually have two for two LOL).

I know I am not even close to an expert on this or a doctor, but I feel like the hallmarks of both types are ATTENTION (after all that is in both of the names (Attention Deficit and Inattentive type )and that just isn't the problem with my DS. I guess I feel like it's not that DS has working memory problems because he is having trouble concentrating or attending - he can't remember and process certain tasks/info no matter how hard he is concentrating/attending and despite concentrating and attending. And, again, this is just my understanding and maybe it's a misunderstanding; but, my understanding is that the ADHD spectrum is WM/executive functioning difficulties basically stemming from an inability to concentrate, to attend, to focus... my son can focus and attend and concnetrate well but still, and despite that, has active memory 'holes.' My sadness and fear is that the meds won't help his memory - and he simply doesn't need help focusing or attending. He actually does that well. I am not sure if this is valid understandng or not.

These are some things I read about working memory deficits that really resonate with me. First, they are "children who have trouble with activities that require both storage (remembering) and processing (manipulating information)." THIS is totally my DS no matter how well he is concentrating - if he has to do both he can't and not becasue he gets distracted or can't focus. He simply can't do both - ykwim?

And this:

"Researchers estimate that about 10-15% of school kids have working memory problems, but these are often misidentified as deficits of attention or intelligence (Holmes et al 2009)."

I don't know ... I guess I need to first talk to the school psych about this and see what she says about all of this. I am jumping way ahead and I really need to hear her thoughts. She observed him A LOT five days of testing and observed him in his class a number of times. She must have some good insight and thoughts on ADD/ADHD. (I just am slightly mistrustful of school psychs )I also think I need to just go talk to a neuropsych. I am looking for him to get a WISC IV test anyway so I can see exactly what has happened with his working memory and processing over this past year via comparing WISC tests (did it stay the same, did it improve somewhat even though it is still low, etc) Neuropsych should be even better with the nuances of the Adhd tyes and manifestations, right?

The whole concept of a "fix" is something you may need to make some adjustment on... 2E kids can rarely be "fixed". It is a very long haul to help them both shore up their weaknesses and help them delve deeply into their areas of strength. I doubt any one professional is going to get you the one answer you need. You are likely to go through a lot of starts & detours, and maybe even conflicting diagnosis and advice over the next several years. Being steady for your kid is pretty important during this process.

Yeah so very true ... hard for me but true.

Bummer. Thanks for the warning, though. I'll takj to them and while keeping your experience in mind - he's there for hypotonia anyway so ...

These are good ideas.. I will try this ... I bet we could turn this into a game and both of my kids would get a kick out of it. I wonder if this sort of "practice" really would help...

Just incidentally, I was just googling adhd and working memory and such and came across this board http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125048 with adults talking about their adhd, how it affects their memory and the effect their meds have on working memory... It's just a board but I find it interesting...

Anyway, after reading all of your thoughts I think I definitely need to at least explore the ADHD angle - I need to look at everything. Clearly, I don't know enough. I don't want to turn my back on something and have that be THE THING I should have looked into to help!

Oh and also just as an aside.... other than the working memory stuff, the school eval was glowing about my DS! It talked about how engaging he is, what a great sense of humor he has, how he works hard when necessary and, yeah, how well he attends (LOL not kidding) and concentrates, etc. They called him "delightful." and pointed out his "excellent fluid reasoning skills" as well as his strong quantitative reasoning and knowledge, that he is able to recognize higher level connections, that he has a great voca, etc... Oh and discussed his creativity and imagination.

It was really nice to read - other than his poor working memory stuff . The last report was really rather unflattering - quite upsetting actually. So this was nice in that respect.

I'm obviously not a psych either, but my son has adhd and we've seen several doctors and therapists. I have been told that in some kids their ability to pay attention and concentrate may seem fine, but you'll see the adhd in their in ability to control their impulses and consider consequences of their actions. That is what we see with our son. He can (after much complaining) read a boring book and do boring schoolwork, but without meds he'll literally get up in the middle of doing things because a thought popped into his head.

I would encourage you to do more reading on adhd. There are lots of non stimulant meds now with fewer side effects.

You're right that I don't know who to believe. The vision therapist has a reputation about 50/50 for working or not and he was fairly aggressive in his contract. I don't completely trust the opinion of the pediatric opthalmologist because when DD went for a follow-up I saw that during the "dots" test there were a different number of dots DD was looking at than she reported. I pointed this out and the dr. shrugged and said it was good enough, that her vision wasn't perfect but if she was getting good grades at school it's not really a problem. The issues are 1) she's capable of much more advanced work so that argument isn't satisfactory 2) she completes her schoolwork and homework (output) with a level of frustration to cause notice of teachers at least enough of the time and at home also, to be a matter of concern, so this is also not satisfactory.

I told the pediatrician and asked his opinion about getting a 3rd opinion and he said "I wouldn't bother" stating that were I was at this point is a common place to be between these two camps of eye professionals.

Meanwhile hopefully this will be an issue covered in a neuropsych exam or if not I have the name of another vision therapist with a better reputation a little distance away but if we decide to do therapy there this spring/summer will make the drive easier.

Anyway, thanks for your message!

It's so hard. I was vacillating between surgery and therapy - those are the options for my DS. As you may be able to tell, I kind of like to be able to "fix" things, right? I just want his vision "fixed" - I don't care if it's "out there "light therapy or vision exercises or surgery or whatever - it doesn't matter to me if it is homeopathic or mainstream. Of course, this problem is much more complicated. I would love to just get him surgery but the surgery's success rate for his particular condition is pretty low. So, I think I'll just find the best surgeon, right? Well my neighbor's kid has the same type of vision problem (except her child's intermittently drifted out instead of crossing in) and they seem to think vision therapy is total quackery. They went to the best surgeon in the area (her husband is a doctor) and got their girl the surgery. That poor child's eye now crosses in. Last I talked to her mom, she told me that the surgeon said she would grow out of that. But both my husband and I saw the child last week and her eye didn't look good at all (I noticed it crosses in more in the morning - and is better in the afternoon). She had the surgery a year ago and her eye looks way worse. Also, my son said she s really behind in reading and he attributes it to her eye problems becasue he said he had a much harder time reading before vision therapy too. I have no idea of course but I suspect the vision is playing a big part. My husband and I have stopped considering surgery at all now. I have yet to read or see a success story with the surgery. Originally surgeons were telling my neighbor that nothing could be done b/c those surgeons wouldn't even consider VT and the surgery itself just has such a low success rate.

The VT on the other hand has helped trmemendously but my kid still isn't "fixed." He's still symptomatic... and it is frustrating. However, he is significantly better and fortunately he likes the in-office therapy at least. I am just getting impatioent for him to be "cured" you know...Guess I need to work on adjusting that expectation

marytheres, I'm glad DeeDee mentioned this (which is a great idea!)... because it reminded me of something from the years when my dd was younger and we didn't realize she had vision issues. We were *extremely* worried about her ability to remember simple directions -we would ask her to go to another room and bring back something - very simple directions that her two-years younger sister could easily do- and she'd completely forget, get distracted so easily. This was all happening before we'd been to see a neuropsych for ds, so I wasn't familiar with terms like working memory back then, but today I'd describe what was going on as appearing to be challenges with short term and working memory. But really - it wasn't! The things that looked like memory issues improved tremendously after improvements from VT started kicking in. Her eye dr says it is a combination of visual distractions plus the combined load of effort required to process visual information is overwhelming the resources available to the child to integrate visual plus auditory systems etc.

polarbear

But this is what none of us even teachers are seeing in my DS - he actually has good impulse control - not borderline in any way. He can wait his turn, wait to speak, etc., etc. And he does stop to consider consequences, etc. He doesn't “get up in the middle of doing things because a thought popped into his head" - none of that.

I just asked him to go upstairs get the glasses for his vision therapy and the paper ruler (ruler that measures his distance from the screen), grab me a tissue and come back downstairs... He did it all quickly, he did not seem to get distracted (to me) but he forgot the ruler... This is common with him but it doesn't seem to be that he got distracted and forgot - he did all on task but he simply couldn't hold all of that in his head ... like there simply wasn't enough 'room'. He's not like the one poster whose kid was told to brush his teeth and ended up in the shower. But if you give my DS three things to do, he'll usually stay on task but still forget one. He also cannot multi-task AT ALL. Like, he can't talk and put on his shoes - he doesn't seem to get distracted but he simply cannot do both at the same time. When he gets into school he cannot chat with his friends and get his stuff together at the same time. Not sure if that is 'adhd' in nature (I didn't think so but I really don't know) but that is what I feel like I see. I see that it isn't that he can't concentrate, is so easily distracted or control impulses or any of that - I see him being unable literally to keep things in his head at the same time - not due to distraction, inability to control impulses or due to inattention but almost as if there simply isn’t enough "room."
But maybe that is a type or a manifestation of adhd... I didn't think it was but I don't really know I just assumed that is why it doesn't really come up.

He is very fidgety and uncomfortable due to hypotonic... I think that affects this stuff. Like he needs to spend so much energy and concentration holding his posture due to poor muscle tone in that area and holding his pencil that that takes up some of his "working memory" space.

I think it's odd, that his eval report says he scored above average for the digit forward but simply can't do the digit backwards... He scored in the 84 percentile forward but 7 in reversed digit test

I don’t know. There is only so much I can speculate but I can use the info you give t explore this with the doctors. I called the school psych again and left a message saying I'd like her thoughts on ADHD too when we speak or meet. Hopefully, she'll call me on Monday. I can also take all of this to a neuropsych and see what test he/she could do to determine if it is adhd in nature or something else.

The psych hit the nail on the head in her report when she writes that DS has "...appropriate ability to inhibit impulsive responses, adjust to changes in routine and task demands, modulate emotions, initiate problem solving, plan and organize problem solving approaches and monitor his own behavior. However, {DS} does have difficulty holding an appropriate amount of information in active memory for further processing and/or mental manipulation."

The mystery is "why?"

Oh and can I just say - this kid has had tons of OT for years now and on the Bender Gesalt test he scored n the 5th percentile!

Yes, I think this is/could be a factor.... Processing issues eating up mental ram so to speak! I am still trying to compare the two test results (last year's WISC before VT and knowledge of vision issue) and January's SB-V after 6 months of VT. But the tests are different so it's not as easy/clear. as I would like. However, DH and I went through it last night and DS has improved. On the Wisc he was like in the 'well-below borderline range' (the eval uses the word "retarded" to describe the range but I hate that word) for processing, working memory and visual spatial (they actually had to throw the VS test out last year b/c he got none right and simply couldn't do the test) now on the corresponding SB-V subtest he is "low average" on WM, Processing and I visual-spatial... We did the comparison in attempt to help me to stop freaking out LOL and it did help. He has actually improved decently since starting VT - it's just slow and he is still low ... So, there's that. I did talk with his vision doc and he said the same as you... he said they could also inocrporate some Working Memory stuff in to the therapy...

It is really frustrating trying to compare the different tests. I wish we had had a follow-up WISC for our dd after she completed her first round of VT. Instead she had the WJ-III Cog a few years later and to be honest, I haven't ever tried to figure out the correlations for her. Not because it wouldn't be interesting... more so simply because I have a hard time just keeping up with getting lunches ready for school each day with all the craziness at our house

I can't believe your WISC report used the word "retarded" - argh! On SO many levels... dd scored lower than .5th percentile on one of her subtests that was impacted by vision... I can still remember how my stomach fell through my feet when I saw that result at the neuropsych follow-up and before we had confirmed it was related to a vision issue.

polarbear

Yeah it was like a graph/chart thing showing me where his scores fell and that was the label they had on the area where his scores fell for working memory and processing...

Polarbear, did your DD do syntonic light therapy as a part of her vision therapy? My Ds' doctor isn't into that and doesn;t offer it but I am thinking of giving it a shot for DS if I can find someone to do it... Just wondering if you have any experience with it?

My dd did do the light therapy toward the end of her VT (where she looked into a box with different/changing colors of light. I'm not sure it was all that helpful - she was doing so many different things, and I never really understood how it was supposed to help... and by the time the light therapy was included she'd passed that early spike of rapid improvement and was starting to burn out on weekly VT appointments combined with daily exercises at home. We did have the light box at home for awhile... I had forgotten a lot of this... it's possible I might remember more about it after my brain's pulled it up from long-term memory... if I do, I'll let you know!

polarbear

I was just curious if she did it! But if you do remember anything significant about it let me know! Thanks!

I tell you I think the psych I used for the Wisc was crappy - she was with AI Dupont but it was terrible experience ... The part labled "extremely low" on that was labled "retarded." Also the "borderline" part was labeled "borderline retarded." Whatever. I can't say I recommend AI Dupont for this stuff for many reasons.

That report was simply awful... it seemed they went out of their way to paint a really disturbing picture of DS - unnecessarily and it was very upsetting. Your reactiosn to them using "retarded" just is further evidence. I had no idea it wasn't used in general.

I am thankful that this report while not without pointing out deficits and issues is still very positive and the psych seemed to accurately see and report DS's strengths and positives.

The state where I live has switched from the eligibility category label of Mental Retardation to Intellectual Disability just within the past two or three years, I believe.

I spend a lot of time trying to prove that my clients are mentally retarded, with severe deficits in adaptive functioning.

From your friends, the Feds:

"12.05 Mental retardation: Mental retardation refers to significantly subaverage general intellectual functioning with deficits in adaptive functioning initially manifested during the developmental period; i.e., the evidence demonstrates or supports onset of the impairment before age 22."

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/disab...ok/12.00-MentalDisorders-Adult.htm#12_05