Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Recommended Resources CTD Apogee?

Anyone done this, particularly as a residential camp?

DD9 has done a CTD online class (which required a lot of parent-provided structure), which she enjoyed and got a lot out of. Apogee is 3 weeks of full-time study on one topic, for kids who have completed 4th, 5th, or 6th grades, and is the more-advanced option for kids in that age group. DD will have completed 5th, so be in the middle grade-wise; she's grade-skipped and was young-for-grade originally, so will likely be at the young end age-wise.

There are two programs she's considering: Ancient Wars & Mythology (super-excited) and Pre-Algebra (super-excited before she said, "hey, do they have history, too?" Now a clear second choice.).

Last year's Ancient Wars session covered the Iliad and Aeneid. The Trojan War is one of DD's particular interests, and she already owns one of the books on the syllabus. This year's program may or may not have a heavy Greek focus, but it's likely to be a very good match for her interests. She's a fast reader; that plus the reading level / length of the books lead me to believe that she will have plenty of free time during evening study hours.

IMHO Pre-Algebra would kick her butt. It's normally a 7th or 8th grade class in our district; she's hoping to take it next year in 6th (and would take Algebra I instead if she did the CTD Pre-Algebra). Math doesn't come as intuitively to her as it does to some kids; she'll be fine in a standard school-year class (even with a pre-AP label) where the first few weeks are a quickie review of 6th grade basic math, but without that review, there's some chance that she will perceive herself as being way behind / hopelessly lost on the first day of class and will tailspin into anxiety.

This would be DD's first overnight camp; she has not been successful at sleepovers with friends. (We know to wait up for the midnight phone call from the parent who says that DD can't fall asleep even though everyone else has been out for hours.) DD has successfully slept over with extended family; "no one is driving you home, so you may as well go to sleep" works just fine. Chicago is a 2-hour flight or an 11-hour drive for us.

My concern is that the history class may be insufficiently rigorous for a kid who is *really* into the topic covered, and it won't keep her brain busy enough for her to be happy. OTOH, my concern is that the math class will be too rigorous for a kid with DD's level of preparation, and that it will be too stressful for her to be happy.

Pre-algebra might not be that scary. Take a look at the "are you ready" test from AoPS web site. CTD class is not as intensive as AoPS.

http://data.artofproblemsolving.com/aops20/courses/Prealgebra1/PreTest.pdf

I agree- I think especially if your child has a logical mind and is mathy. In our district, in our gifted program, the kids take pre-algebra in 6th grade and algebra I in 7th grade.
I bought my 4th grader a 5th grade math book from Bright Kids called "Algebra" and he is breezing through it. (I assume it's really more pre-algebra than big-time algebra but you get the idea).
Our local community college offers similarly accelerated courses in the summer starting once you complete 4th grade, so I'm hoping my son will qualify (he qualified easily for CTY via SCAT and the entrance exam is very similar) to take them. And he can stay at home. The courses sound very interesting!

I personally would be extremely hesitant to recommend that someone take AoPS pre-algebra based only on the ability to pass that screening test.

Really, it's the full year of math in 3 weeks that worries me. If you're covering a chapter a day (which, according to the syllabus and the textbook, they are), there's no time to get up to speed.

I've emailed CTD to see if they can tell me more about the expected level of preparation. Their Algebra I requires a 22 on the EXPLORE (90th percentile for 6th grade talent search kids), whereas pre-algebra requires basically "is good at grade-level math." My DD would be at the "is good at grade-level math" end of that spectrum (50th percentile for her grade on the Math EXPLORE).

If you did not worry about CTD put up high school level world history content into that Greek mythology class, why would you worry about they put some spice of middle school pre-algebra in those three weeks. After all, CTD classes are 2-year-ahead as they acclaimed. If you kid is 50 percentile or above on EXPLORE Math, which is around 15/25. She should be ready for the challenge. And you should see big leap in EXPLORE a year later. My DS10 had 10-pt improvement in EXPLORE Math after some pre-algebra exposure.

Why? I mean, content-wise it seems fine; if what you mean is that content knowledge isn't really the limiting factor for most people doing AOPS, yeah.
This would bother me a bit too, but not so much because it's too fast as because it seems a bit of a waste of a chance to spend three solid weeks on maths, in most circumstances. Wouldn't it be bound to end up rushing through material with no chance to actually absorb and use it? I could see this making sense if the kid knew most of it already and needed a certificate to be allowed to avoid spending a whole year on it, or maybe as a dollop of new material for a kid who won't get it otherwise (DS is lolloping through ALEKS precalculus this holiday for this reason; his teacher is giving him problems in class which is great but he wanted a bit more " stuff").

If DD is currently keener on the history one, I think I'd go with that... Any particular reason not to? Oh, you said; maybe not rigorous enough. Hmm; wonder to what extent she could self-differentiate by e.g. reading different books?

Yes, it was that exactly.


If she were breezing through 6th grade math this year, and ahead enough that a subject acceleration past pre-algebra and into Algebra I for next year was on the table, I think this course would be perfect for that. But as the first significant exposure to many of the concepts, I do worry about not having enough time to absorb things.

I'd guess there's a 75% chance that DD would be absolutely fine in the class - that she would rise to the occasion and whatever didn't sink in in the 75 classroom hours would get figured out in the 45 homework hours. (Oh, wow - that comes out to be half the instructional hours she'd get in school - and probably a whole year of homework time - and I'd have no hesitation at all over doing a school year compressed program that covered a year of material in a semester.) But if she didn't, then she'd spend the next year of school way ahead and bored.


Unless the CTD Summer Programs person tells me that the history class is likely to be all younger kids with no prior exposure to the topic, I think she will do the history one.

But maybe the math one, too. The incremental cost of enrolling in both is not so large that "wasting" it by not coming back if she's miserable in the first session is unthinkable. I also ought to ask about anticipated gender balance in the math session - DD will do better if there are at least a couple of other girls who are residential (rather than day) students.

Thought I'd chime in with our experience, for whatever it's worth. My DD (now 10) did CTD's residential Spark program last summer. Spark is a one week program for students who have completed 4th grade. DD is fiercely independent, likes to have a lot going on and always has lots of friends. She was very excited about going. We let her choose her own class, even though I felt at the time that the robotics type course would have been a better fit for her. Her strengths are in math and science - getting her to write has always been horribly difficult.

Everything was fine when we dropped DD off and for the first night, but there was a lot of writing on the first morning of class and homesickness hit. No one was expecting it and we were hours away. The staff at CTD, especially the program director, did an excellent job of helping DD through that day and the next (as well as saying just the right things to keep me from jumping in my car to go rescue DD!). DD ended up having a fabulous week.

In retrospect, I wish I had listened to my instincts and encouraged DD to take a class that aligned with her strengths. Being away from home for the first time combined with the writing in the course was just too much. She ended up having a great time, but she's not ready to go back this summer because the class she wanted to take was a 3 week course and she's just not sure she's ready to be away from home that long.

There were many residential kids in DD's program and they kept them very busy! I hope DD goes back in a few years

Ah, that's very helpful, thank you! I e-mailed CTD, and they basically said, "Oh, please do not enroll a kid who has issues sleeping away from home in a 3-week overnight camp. Everyone will be miserable."

They suggested either Spark (which is currently listed as appropriate for kids completing 4th or 5th) or getting a hotel room and enrolling DD as a commuter. But none of the Spark classes look like my DD's thing, so knowing that fit is important to fend off daytime homesickness is important.

I mentioned to DD what CTD had said, and she cheerfully replied, "Yes, when we got there I'd probably ask you to stay the whole time, so I wouldn't have to sleep over." D'oh! She still really wants to do camp - if she were magically imbued with the power to successfully sleep over. Practicing actually sleeping over does not appeal quite that much.