Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Pre-school Perfectionist, sensitive kid and the right school

It's been awhile since I've posted about DD (almost 4) but for a long time we were happy with her school situation so there really wasn't much to say.

However, I could use some advice on dealing with a perfectionist and especially one who is very sensitive emotionally. So here's the situation...

DD has be going to a private Montessori school for awhile now. From our perspective as parents it's great. It goes up until 8th grade, the school has some highly gifted students but also is great about incorporating everyone (and has a number of special needs kids whose parents also rave about the school). Whenever we talk to her teachers I feel like they get her, they listen well to our concerns and they have even discussed giftedness with us and suggested a private tester when we feel ready to go through with that. They also try to follow her interests and if we mention that she is interested in X they will try to find books for her on it or broach the subject with her.

However, DD has been complaining a lot. We speak English at home but the school is in the local language (and she is the only bilingual child there). She begs to go to an English speaking school or at least another bilingual school regardless of the languages taught there. She is constantly getting into "fights" with her friends. We've seen some of these "fights" first hand where it's essentially a kid wanting to play something else and goes off to do that. DD interprets it as if her friend hates her and is no longer her friend any more and will stop doing anything and just cry/pout (and she remembers these episodes long after they happen and still talks about how so-and-so is no longer my friend). She also has an issue with one particular kid at the school who will hit her. The teachers are very aware of the problem and deal with it effectively, DD knows to tell the teachers immediately too. But she really internalizes the problem and can't stop thinking about it for days (sometimes months) after an incident.

Then there is the perfectionism, which is just getting worse. She is highly competitive and always wants to be the best. She freaks out if she gets the smallest thing wrong (even if it's something that is completely unrealistic!). I can't tell you how many tears we have at home because she can't achieve some completely unrealistic goal that she has set forth for herself.

DH and I are baffled. I really feel strongly that the Montessori school has the best options for her academically (the other schools locally are all aged based and gifted programs simply don't exist here) but DD is not happy there. Also, I worry that an age-based school would leave her bored (as is she complains about boredom at school and that she just wants to play all the time but at home she is constantly doing more academic work like writing letters to family members, doing puzzles, asking questions about science etc and barely plays with her real toys).

We always try to emphasize that even the best of us need to practice various tasks over and over again until we can accomplish them (we talk about our own failures and how we learn over time). Yet she still puts this tremendous amount of pressure on herself. The school has said they also focus on that and talk to her about how we all have different abilities.

My DD was like that too. It was incredibly difficult, for years. Four was rough... five was even harder! She's just turned ten and is sooooo much more well adjusted ...she's able to forgive herself for mistakes, she's emotionally resilient now and she recovers quickly from her sensitivities. When she was the same age as your DD though, I thought I was going to lose my mind.

I don't have a lot of advice, but I do want to say that it gets better Maybe stick with your current school if you really think it's the best choice (it sounds great) but make sure that your daughter feels heard.

My DD's perfectionism, btw, was also getting worse at that age, and peaked at about grade 2 (6 yrs). What helped was pushing her past her ability to be perfect (i.e. challenging the heck out of her). It's kind of like exposure therapy to OCD. It really, really worked. She'll probably always have a touch of it - it's part of who she is - but she's much better able to function now.

Hang in there! I does get better

Hi newmom21C, good to see you again! I don't have a lot to suggest. It sounds like this is partly just her natural personality, and something that you'll be working with over the long term. One thought is to catch opportunities to praise hard work and persistence, and minimize any talk about what she's "good at." This is subtly different from just talking to her about the need for practice. It changes the reward-structure. Paradoxically, you (and the school) should stay away from reassuring her that she's actually good at things.

The school talking about different abilities may still put too much focus on an idea of innate ability.

Can the boredom in school be addressed separately? If that could be improved, it seems like the school is a really good one.

She is unhappy at this school. You said it yourself. I would seriously think about alternatives. If she is going full time, school is a major part of her life. If she wants to play at school, that is pretty appropriate for a three-year-old regardless of what she can do at home. Perhaps a smaller school that is more play-based and nurturing of interpersonal relationships would be appropriate right now.

Her poor behavior could simply be a result of an inappropriate school fit. If she is still throwing huge tantrums at almost four there is something going on. It may be that the bilingualism stresses her out. It is really interesting that she begs to go to an English speaking school. It sounds like she feels like she does not fit in at this school which is heartbreaking.

I would not worry about an academic fit. Preschool is supposed to be fun. I suppose an age-based school where you are would be a lot of playing and pre-literacy stuff--nursery rhymes, story telling, songs etc. That might be just what she needs. She might really benefit from that stuff in her second language. And, the age-based schools might be plenty challenging as she navigates learning to read and write well in two languages.

We are currently making choices for school next year for our sensitive and shy, reserved child, so I know it is tough to really see what environment is the best fit. FWIW our DD just wants to play at school. When we talk about kindergarten next year she does not want to go because she thinks it will be too hard. This from the 4-year-old who reads at a second grade level and is probably around that level in math too. She loves learning about history and science at home but loves playing with friends at school more. It has yet to be a problem just letting her do that. Good luck.

Hmmm-- well, I'm coming at this from the standpoint of raising a perfectionist whose tendencies in that direction were equally obvious from a very young age.

I think that I'd consider that in your thought process. Consider it very carefully-- because a more "academic" environment is likely to seriously exacerbate this problem and foster even worse things down the road-- unless, as CCN's post notes, you can find one that will truly offer meaningful intellectual challenge. That's not easy, since most adults don't see it as a "problem" when a five year old can "already do" everything in first, second, and third grade curricula. They don't see that unholy zeal for 100% as a negative thing (instead viewing it as "drive" or "charming") until it turns into disordered eating and severe anxiety during adolescence. This is just stupid, since the two things are inextricably linked to one another, and deliberately encouraging perfectionistic qualities in a child like this is a recipe for complete and total disaster.

Kids with this much perfectionism this young? Definite red flags. Don't ignore those, no matter HOW perfect other things seem, and no matter how otherwise happy that child is with a particular placement.

Let me guess-- everything for her is (already) either "Look at me-- I'm the best-- I'm perfect-- I love this!" or "I cannnnnnnnnnnn't."

Right?

I know where this train goes. Nowhere good. My advice, personally? Support your child emotionally to face things which make her uncomfortable-- do NOT allow her to avoid them in favor of doing those things she's already "good" at. Look for areas where effort is directly proportional to results, and where results are either ungraded (subjective) or where her "best" is likely to come in at the 80th-90th percentile, but no higher.

It also sounds to me as though you need to work with her to understand that relationships can be "repaired" after disagreements. Those are important life skills-- and sensitive or not, holding grudges and burning bridges over misunderstandings isn't a good habit to form. Does she have contact with true peers? If not, that might also be something to work at; if only to see if the interpersonal interactions are better/different from what you're seeing at school. It is possible that her agemates can't give her what she's seeking, and that this is the root of the problem with classmates. It's also possible that this is an indicator of basic inflexibility or an unwillingness to compromise/forgive, which would be a different matter. Clearly.

Another possibility: she asks for a bilingual school so she can do academics in both languages. She wants to play at school because the social scene there is what she hasn't mastered yet, and she mulls over the 'fights' for weeks because she can't figure out the other kid's motivation. In contrast, at home she knows how the social scene works and is ready to pay attention to solitary pursuits.

If this rings true to you, then she may need coaching to understand her agemates, and much much more academic challenge. School may be the right environment for her to learn about other kids, and home may be where she studies, at least for now.

Thanks everyone for the wide variety of responses, it's given me a lot to think about. I tried asking DD again last night why she doesn't like her school and she said that it was because not everyone spoke English and it was boring. Yet, she must have had a good day because she also said she had fun? It just baffles me at times. We do have an end of the semester parent teacher conference coming up at some point so hopefully we'll be able to find out more then. DH and I have both visited her school and I know there are a wide range of activities in the rooms one that I know she would enjoy but I think part of the problem is that she wants her friends to constantly do the work with her and while it's allowed many times her friends have different interests. Even at home she'll complain that she doesn't know how to play by herself and complains if she's supposed to do it at school too.

Part of the reason we are so worried about academic fit is that while there are a number of school options locally many of them only allow children to enter during the preschool age so we're somewhat forced to look at this long term (the one exception would be bilingual English schools because she's a native speaker, but most of them are well outside of our price range). Traditional schools (many of the "top schools" would fit into this category) tend to be very strict in terms of learning and definitely wouldn't allow children to work ahead and may even discourage children asking questions.

I do think a good part of this is simply her personality. DH and I have both struggled with perfectionism at various times of our lives and have certainly had very shy/socially awkward stages too (although my parents said that at this age they both don't remember perfectionism to the levels that DD has). I guess, this leaves me with the question... how do you strike the balance between pushing your child outside of their comfort zone to help them accept failure too but also not pushing too hard? I think this is something that we struggle with and just aren't sure how to handle.

In terms of true peers and socialization. That's a tough question and I'm not really sure if she does have true peers or not. She's one of the youngest in her 3-6 year old classroom and I know she talks to some of the older kids too but her two closest friends are 4&5 and I'm not sure where they are at schoolwise. I do think they have very different personalities than DD when I see them at school functions and parties. They appear to be able to go with the flow, run around and have fun and don't let things get to them. DD is just not that kid and seems to internalize and ruminate on everything. She'll dissect people's actions (sometimes even those of DH and myself) even when we had not specific intentions behind them. She also had a number of fears (heights, witches, even Disney characters) and those also seems to prevent her from relaxing as much.

We do talk a lot about conflict resolution, playing with her friends and how to deal with fights. I can't remember if it was in Nutureshock or not but I do remember reading that fighting in front of your kids can be healthy (as long as it's done in a reasonable manner and you come to some sort of compromise in the end). So DH and I make sure not to hide our rare disagreements but we discuss them in front of her and try to reach a solution so she can see first hand how it works. We talk about how to compromise with friends also (especially if we go to playdates).

I also don't remember ever saying she's "good" at anything but we make sure to say that she practiced a lot and that's how she was able to do XYZ. She certainly asks, though! She's constantly trying to compete with us and "win" (whether it be who can eat the fastest or an imaginary game she makes up).

I should say also that outside of school she does have a number of bilingual friends (both younger and older). She definitely seems less stressed in her friendships with younger kids (probably because she can dictate the relationship more) but still prefers those with older children even with the occasional fights (but among her friends outside of school the fights seem to be much less, although they're also around each other less too).

This reminds me of myself as a child. See if she understands why her friends do what they do. It may be easier for her to assume younger kids should act 'young' compared to her, but hard to understand when older kids are still not considering their actions to the same depth she would.

I'm trying to actively teach my kids to understand how others are looking at a situation and allow the other kids to learn social skills on their own schedules. The jury's still out on how well they can generalize this, but it seems to help with single incidents at least.

Four-year-olds are maddening.

It is hard to force relationships in a large classroom. You can't make a kid want to play with another. That is something I think all kids deal with, especially kids who aren't as socially savvy as most. I would question if a montessori school is the best environment for a child with social sensitivities who just wants to play with others. I know you are thinking long term, but I also think it is wise to take it year by year.

Not every child responds well to an immersion type setting (kids with auditory processing disorders, visual/spacial, sequential learners--me! I have learned 4 languages fluently, two professionally, one from immersion, and learning through immersion drove me crazy.)

I also think you have to look beyond academic fit. Why do we want academic fit? We want our kids to be challenged. We don't want them to be bored. We want them to be happy! --We want them to be happy.-- If my DD is happy in school that is not an academic fit right now is that harmful? I don't know. If she is unhappy at a school that is the most academic, well, what's the point?

I guess, just to reiterate, I'd worry that she is psychologically drained. And, that is causing her to have trouble coping with her perfectionism. She is the youngest in her class. She wants to interact with others in a class where it is not necessarily encouraged all the time. And, she is operating in a second language.

If she is less stressed with younger children how do you figure she prefers relationships with older children? I'm just curious.

We had our meeting with her teacher and overall I feel like it went pretty well.

Before we even had a chance to bring it up, her teacher talked about her perfectionist and listed a whole laundry list of things that they were doing in the classroom to help her with it. It seems like a common problem for her is that she really pushes herself to do the work of the older kids in class (so it goes up to 6 year olds there) and then freaks out when she's not able to do it immediately. Next semester she won't be the youngest any longer because a number of kids are moving up so it might help things a bit, we'll see. Her teacher suggested playing more games at home with her (especially ones she doesn't win automatically) so she gets used to losing and practising. So far that's been going well (despite some tears at first) and we plan on picking up some more games for Christmas presents.

It does sound like PE is NOT going well with her. She really doesn't like organized sports and the teacher said that they make sure not to push her with it and often times she'll sit out and refuse to join in with the other kids. She does take swimming lessons at home (loves it!) but I think it's more of the group activities that she doesn't like yet. The teacher didn't have any real suggestion beyond just waiting until she gets older.

In terms of social aspect I feel like at least with her friends we've seen some big improvements lately (maybe a new stage of her development?). We've had a number of playdates/parties since my first post, so we had the chance to see her around her friends more often and it looks like she's adjusted well and doesn't appear to be nearly as sensitive to her friends not playing with her 100% of the time. I'm hoping it was just a phase then.

We also discussed the boredom issue and the teacher said she'd keep an eye on it. I still don't understand exactly what DD means by boredom in school. However, one issue that has come up is that DD told me yesterday that she doesn't like asking questions in the local language- only in English. DH and I find that during the breaks/nights/weekends we get almost non-stop questions about everything possible. I figured that was just who she was but then she told me that she saves all her questions for when DH and I are home because she wants to talk about them in English. So we might talk to her more about asking her teacher questions too.

That being said the teacher said that at times she has problems understanding DD because she gets excited, talks very quickly and still has some pronunciation issues. I know I understand her by far the best, so maybe that's why I get the most questions from her?