Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Will discipline break a child's spirit?

DW befriended a new mom, and in sharing parenting styles, the new mom declared we must be AP parents... and DW said, "What's that?"

Long story short, we got some literature on the subject, nodded our heads at some parts, but openly rebelled at others, and declared ourselves definitely NOT AP parents. The major issues we had were the lack of boundary setting and the permissive disciplinary style. So far, it sounds like a lot of the self-identified AP parents in this thread had the same issues, and just decided to do that a different way.

As for the original question... depends on what you mean by "discipline." Individual responses will vary. The research says discipline done wrong (authoritarian) will break a child's spirit, and lack of discipline (permissive) will do it, too.

At the very least, we all know it is possible to break a kid's spirit by sticking them in a room for six to eight hours a day and telling them to learn but giving them nothing to learn. When they cope by daydreaming, call them out on it. When the work they turn is "too" creative, criticise it. When they voice new ideas, reach out to their neighbors, doodle, beg for actual learning, put a stop to it. I believe a term frequently used to describe this is maintaining discipline.

This is my understanding of the current default common sense position.

Is this problem what this book is about?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Price-Privilege-Generation-Disconnected/dp/0060595841

I am so unsure about both topics- discipline and messing my kids up. However I don't trust any of the people who think they've got it completely figured out any better than I trust myself. I do like hearing what other people have figured out so I can sift through it, eat the bones spit out the meat.
I fluctuate, and I prefer those times when it gels and I nail it perfectly. Short of that I just prefer that the struggling parts get over quickly so we can get back to normal because I'm pretty happy with normal. I'm pretty sure I'll mess my kids up some, and so will life, and so will they themselves. I'm also sure they'll be fine.
If you want to know about the sharing specifically, the boy has nice stuff in his room- a drumset, a computer, toy soldiers, nice break able stuff. I keep his door shut. He has toys that the girl could play with without breaking- stuffed animals, cars; I stop him from taking stuff away from his sister. I tell him, "You keep your stuff in your room and keep your door closed. If she gets ahold of your stuff you have to let her play with it. Keep it away from her. Take care of your stuff." Bonus: his toys aren't all over my livingroom, although the baby's still are. I'll have this talk with her in a couple of years. This, I've been told is extremely un-AP, that I do things a certain way for my own convienience. Yes, if I'm going to keep my kids with me all the time, then yes, I am going to do things for my convienence. It's not my call to make, but if I have my kids with me almost all the time I think that's pretty attached. I carry my babies long after they can and should walk so they're literrally attached, poor things. Like my husband... he goes to work and then he comes home to his family. I would call that attachment parenting if I could literally define it. Spend all your time and energy on your family. I'm not even sure that's the best way either. Too much time togeather leads to more arguements all around. More arguements lead to better understanding and more tolerance. Can you tell this is not black and white or even gray to me?My overall acting hypothasis is that I should try to focus on adding more good into it as much as possible and spend less energy trying to deal with the bad parts. The bad parts are a constant and you can't pretend they don't exist. But, they say, whatever you feed grows. Happy Halloween.

Ok, I don't feel too off base in my response to the scenario after reading everyone else's responses.

How things work at my house is that Bear and Wolf will eventually be sharing a room and they already share nearly all their toys. Each child has special toys that are specifically theirs and they always get to say what happens with those. They tend to be toys with emotional attachments or things they have bought themselves. If we have problems like the one in the scenario (almost never happens because they have been taught manners and how to treat each other...) the toy would get a time out if it caused a fight. If it was just Bear throwing a fit, he'd get a time out and Wolf would get the ball.

Time outs generally aren't timed at my house. They are a time out from the situation until you are able to handle yourself around people with some semblance of manners again. The kids almost always get to decide when a time out is over (Bear sometimes needs help putting himself back together due to his issues).

I'm not an AP parent; I'm a pick and choose parent. I nursed and wore both boys, but no co-sleeping. We have rules and insist on manners and politeness, but the worst "punishments" ever given are taking a time out from the situation and sentence writing for things that require specific focus.

I've been at a loss as to what to do with the parent of the children in the scenario. She is a close friend, but I truly feel that the lack of any form of boundaries and discipline is doing the children a severe disservice.

Well, I guess it boils down to which is the more important - that she remain a close friend or that she be told her parenting is doing her kids a severe disservice.

Now, if it boiled over into her kids creating unreasonable situations for your kids where she expected you to back up her parenting style, that is a different story.

Does the parent gave an inkling that what they are doing is ineffective? I think a lot of parents parent out of guilt (of course, we all do sometimes). A guilt-driven parent is much more receptive to advice then a parent who idealistically feels discipline is harmful. I would encourage a guilt-driven parent to let go of these worries and parent the way they know they should. If she is idealistically opposed to discipline, your "judgement" of her parenting may ruin your friendship.

That is do hard for you, I'm sure.

Unless you don't care if she never talks to you again, I wouldn't bother with critiquing her parenting. I am an attorney and I have actually had a few cases recently where such discussions resulted in the moms brawling and someone going to jail. I am not saying you would do that but I don't think there is much that gets a woman as mad as someone else telling her she is messing up her kids. So proceed with caution.

Is she close enough that you can call her on it when it happens and it not be a big deal? Something like, "What the heck do you mean 'break her spirit'? You mean keep her from becoming a entitled diva? When she pulls that nonsense over a pair of designer jeans in ten years you'll wish her 'spirit had been broken' earlier"

I probably only have one friend I could do that with. Everyone else, I would just ignore it.

Really most kids turn out okay despite these small glitches. I can not tell you how many kids I have seen in my neighborhood that people whispered (incl myself prior to having two older children) "oh he/she is going to have such problems when they grow up!" and, you know what? they are more than fine. Maybe the mom is not handling the discipline issue entirely well but she isn't abusing the children and it does seem to me like she is TRYING. We may disgree with how she is trying but she seems to want her children to feel loved, and she wants to do the right thing. I mean, seriously how hard is being a mom to more than one child? I am sorry but it is freaking HARD. I do much less than a stellar job on a very regular basis. I am pretty sure the receptionist at the doctor's office I go to posted on some message board or on facebook somehwere about what a bad mom that I am b/c my kids were both shoving lollipos in their mouth and I was letting them because my oldest just had two painful injections and I was trying out of there before the two of them brought the place down LOL. She actually said to my boys "Oh my you're mom is awfully lenient!" Then pointedly glared at me. I replied "Hahahah yeah that's me -Ms. Lenient! hahaha!" sarcastically. And to be quite honest I AM different in public than I am in private - sometimes I am just tryign to accomplish what we are tryong to accomplish without the general public or my friends being subject to ear-piercing screaming (becasue guess what? depending on the temperment of the child even the good parents can have a child that throws a tantrum). Anyway, my point is abusive behavior towards a child - yes say something. But this? C'mon. She'll find her way, and/or this phase will pass and I bet her children will grow up and be just fine, possibly even lovely girls.