Some friends of mine and I have had an ongoing conversation based around nature vs. nurture, different parenting styles and outcomes. One of the issues that keeps getting brought up is that we should nurture a child's spirit and that discipline will break a child down so that they lose their spark (we are not talking corporal punishment, just basic manners reinforcement, etc).

Given that, here is a scenario:

5 year old female child (E) has a ball. Her older sibling (S) would like to use a ball. The ball is a house ball that might have been given to E originally, but is used by the household. S takes the ball. E throws a fit, "MY BALL!!!" and grabs it back. S says she wants to use is for baseball. E refuses. This may or may not devolve into the children hitting each other. This instance was dealt with by mom telling E that she can keep the ball (ie not share a toy she wasn't even playing with) and then calling a friend to ask if she can borrow a ball for S to use. The reasoning given was that asking E to give up the ball would "break her spirit."

Oh and E did not originally have the ball, it was just lying around.

Now I know what my take is on this, but I'm curious what other people see and how other parents would react to that situation.

Wow.

Well, I'm pretty old-school as parents go, I guess...


Maybe real life is at some point going to break the child's spirit in far more significant ways.

Exactly how is formal schooling going to go, hmm?

(Nevermind. I'll bet that I know the answer. )

Discipline is about training/civilizing children, not "punishing" them, first of all. Much of that is for their own benefit, whether they see it that way or no (and all too often it's the latter-- sucks to be the parent).

Sorry, but my personal belief is that children are born who they are, all right... and that a LOT of 'who they are' requires some fine tuning if they are to live in harmony with other human beings. In some cases, major tuning. They'd mostly turn out to be tyrannical and capricious dictators otherwise. Imagine an entire world filled with only people intent on serving their own desires in the moment...


I don't really hold with the view that socializing/training children "destroys" their lovely and charming natural selves. I think that our natural selves are a lot like Howler Monkeys.

This particular scenario is pretty simple in our house. If you have something you have been given as a gift or purchased yourself (a ball) and you really treasure it, it's your responsibility to keep it put away in your room when you aren't playing with it. And if you've done that, we will respect that it's yours. If its out, and you aren't playing with it, it's fair game. So in our house since E wasn't using the ball and had left it out and about, S would get to play with it.

More generally, I don't think discipline done correctly breaks anyone's spirit. I think discipline is a chance to guide kids into self-discipline- and a lack of self discipline as an adult can be an awful experience for everyone. Discipline is a gift, even if kids don't always welcome it. And when you create some good clear guidlines you can create a safe way to offer age appropriate freedom of choice for the child. In our case, the child chooses to put the toy away every time he is done playing or understand that he will be sharing it. The freedom of choice belongs to the child but within the guidlines we set.

I agree with HowlerKarma and GinaW.

There's a difference between discipline and punishment. Both are necessary, but I believe that more of the former can lead to less of the latter.

"Disciplining children breaks their spirits" sounds a bit like an excuse for something to me. But that's just my opinion.

Sounds like some BS from the attachment-parenting crowd.

If they are claiming attachment parenting- then they've missed the boat on what it is. I consider myself an AP mom and discipline is key. I've heard lazy parents "adopt" the title of AP parenting as a sort of excuse. "Oh I'm not really too absorbed in my smart phone to parent my kid- its just part of my attachment parenting philosophy.". But true attachment parenting ( as defined by the guy who coined the phrase) is NOT without discipline.

Uhh...but lack of discipline will break a child's spirit because everyone will dislike them as a human.

My take on the ball situation is...those two children need to figure it out for themselves or they both need to go to their rooms (or own space) and no one gets the ball.
I think that the idea of a parent being so hyper-involved in the day to day disputes between her children is unreasonable. How will they ever learn how to handle things for themselves if they can't negotiate with their siblings?

Point well made, and taken. I'm talking about the faux attachment parenting crowd, I guess, led by such people as the discredited Naomi Aldort.

In the example, I'm pretty sure Iwould NOTdo what the mom did, no matter how tired I was.... But

I often wonder if I'm breaking my children's spirits with dicscipline. Yesterday, after a bunch of discipline issues I thought were indepe dant of one another, I found out that my kid, who desperately wants to learn how to fight, and has been asking about it for over a year (and he's only 3), was nervous because he had his first karate class and didn't want to blow it.

I should have been hearing his real concerns *all freqking day*

You're human! Hang in there!

The most miserable, brooding, entitled, dissatisfied, and unmotivated clients I see in my practice are precisely the ones whose spirits remained "unbroken". More self -pitying and emotionally-crippled then any of the teerns I've seen from physically abusive families, parental death, foster care, or even war-torn countries.

It is a terrible form abuse to send a child into the world ill-equipped to tolerate frustration, consequence, compromise, or understand that their welfare is largely inconsequential to most. The world is a cruel teacher. I will arm my kids accordingly with love, structure and expectations.

I'm with Daytripper...

In our house, disputes such as this would be counted (a la 123 magic) for both kids. That resolves 99% of the disputes here. The leftover 1% may be taken up with the local governing body (aka: mom).

Creating an outcome that will never happen in reality is setting a child up for some serious disappointments and hard knocks.

I can promise you no boss is going to go ask another company if there is a new Mac lying around that he can give the disappointed co-worker who didn't get the one new Mac that came into the company.

I would've taken the ball away from both of them and told them to figure out how to get along or I would have some chores they both could do so they could be productive while getting out all that energy, My garden isn't nearly as well weeded as it was when I had bickering kids at home.

Discipline teaches a child self restraint, self denial, and tolerance, when we deprive our kids of opportunities to practice those skills, we help set them up for being disliked by their peers, unhappy in their jobs and miserable spouses.

Can you tell this one is black and white for me?

Not weighing in on the discussion but just had to chuckle at this becasue I swear this scenario is played out in my house with my two boys almost every day. LOL. I admit that I have used similar way to deal with it (not borrowing - b/c really how embarassing, LOL - but actually buying another ball ) not for any breaking spirit reasons but just to keep the peace and just because I can't take it anymore. Unfortunately, obtaining another ball (or whatever said item at issue is) usually does not solve the problem. The two of them just move on to something else to have the exact same fight over. Somedays I am on top of my game and I effectively referee while teaching a lesson in problem solving and keeping peace. Other days - not so much. Both older DS and I have recently realized that younger DS lately pulls the "MY BALL" stunt described above just to antogonize. A few minutes of pretending to not be interested in said ball (or whatever toy) usually means younger DS moves on to doing something else abandoning the ball he insisted he couldn't bear to part with. And older DS smiles knowingly at me and realizes leassons of patience and reverse psychology. LOL. This happened just tonight and DS 7 remarked "Hmmm, this is a VERY effective method!" My other way of dealing with it? Keep the seperate - Older Ds goes to aftercare at school !

It's interesting to read the replies. I think the mom in question handled it terribly, but I DO think that the mom should step in. I don't think that a 5-year old necessarily knows how to interact, and I also don't think that an older sibling who picks up a ball lying around should be forced into trying to "work it out" (what's to work out?). I would have stepped in to say briefly, "You weren't using this. There's no good reason that your sister can't use it for baseball. If you can't respond without yelling or whining, you need to go to your room until you calm down." End of discussion. In our house, there are no toys that are off limits to siblings (and I have four kids). It's just weird to me. It's never come up, honestly, never in all our years (and two are grown). It's not a rule; my kids just aren't that possessive. My boys share a room and a playroom, so they pretty much play together. We had this issue with the girls and makeup/clothes as teenagers, and then we set rules - and we had to get pretty specific (different rules for consumables like makeup and checking first that jewelry/clothes won't be worn the next day by the owner). Overall though, I think the good part of having four kids is that they pretty much learn early to share. And I don't put up with whining and I don't put up with it's not fair. We run a commie household- kids get what they need (not what their sibling gets) and they help as they are able (and if their sibling is doing homework and can't do dishes, sorry kiddo, you're up).
I'm a total AP mom - I nursed longterm, I coslept, I don't use corporal punishment, but this isn't about AP, this is about whiny, indulged kids. They are going to have a very hard time in school one day, not to mention in the work force!

Momtofour...

It is surprising how easily little ones can learn to compromise. I have a ds6 and dd2...admittedly, they get along really quite well. But we have a lot of possession issues especially with my dd2 who thinks everything is hers the moment my ds lays claim. By "counting" (which is really just giving the warning "figure this out or I will"), I don't take sides. Sometimes ds is the instigator, sometimes dd - but often it's both of them antagonizing one another. And boy do they LOVE to play the victim! I think a parent should actively intervene when there is a bullying issue with siblings - but so often kids feel resentful of how parents "side" with the youngest (for example)...and the parent's intervening just leads to MORE resentment and "sneaky" behavior. But of course, not all kids benefit from the same parenting interventions - just wanted to share our experience.

Yeah, I'm AP (real AP? lol not wacko just instinct and evidence based practice) and I'd definitely get involved depending on the kids' ages. some kids are just SO like that--you want it so now I NEED it. Getting down and calmly but firmly explaining, distracting, asking them to go blow off steam on their own, all good. Even setting a timer for turn taking. Most of the time a quick start if this leads to my kids working it out very easily. DD5 is a super sharer and DS1 is more jealous but the regular modeling IS helping. I definitely see very permissive parenting at times, sometimes by parents who just let it happen, who just aren't "with it," and yes some who are all "oh he's so spirited" wooza wooza about it all. I think there's something to not being overly controlling but kids should be guided!

Yet another self-defining AP parent here who thinks the scenario in the OP crazy and disapproves of that strategy being associated with AP. (This actually seems like rather an odd connection - I wonder whether Iucounu was conflating AP and UC, unconditional parenting? UC is also interesting and influential on me, and there's a naive interpretation of it that might lead to this scenario, so that would make sense. They're different things though.)

I see attachment parenting as being about honouring needs and wants and feelings - but part of that is about distinguishing those things from one another, and a lot of it is about recognising that everyone has them! As I have a singleton I have only theoretical ideas about how to deal with sibling issues, but I do of course deal with situations where DS's needs/wants conflict with mine or DH's or someone else's all the time.

I'd certainly let child S play with something that wasn't the exclusive property of child E and wasn't being used by E at the time, even if E didn't like it. I'd be interested in why E didn't want S to use it, and in an ideal world would talk about that with her (while S went off with it!), though. One of the most helpful ideas I've accrued from somewhere (probably my own therapy, come to think of it :-) is that all feelings should be acceptable: the place to intervene is where you decide how to express or act on the feeling. Far more helpful to say to yourself "I feel as though I don't want anyone else to play with that - but actually there's no reason she shouldn't, so I won't object" than to say "I shouldn't feel that". Tricky with a 5yo, but even then, one can criticise the behaviour rather than the feeling.

I agree with the responses saying that teaching kids rules and basic respect is very important and don't have anything to add to that except gosh sometimes I get tired of reinforcing the same stuff over and over again. But I know that over time it has had results, plus what else are you going to do, give up and just let them have at each other??

But to the other point, I think that what could 'break a kid's spirit' is arbitrary and/or unexpected punishments. I had this a lot when I was growing up and it really distorted my view of the world as well as contributing to depression. When the rules are clear and enforced as promptly and fairly as possible, with reasonable consequences, I think it is ultimately a win/win for everyone. Would you really want to be around your own kid when they're all grown up if they keep resolving disagreements by brute force?

The use of brute force is always a choice, in any event.

Every time you engage with others, you are free to consciously choose whether you want to engage in pro-social behavior or even if you want to consider the other person as someone who is real.

Nothing ever stops anyone from choosing to believe that they are the only real thing in existence and that everything else is shadow.

"Solipsism (i/ˈsɒlɨpsɪzəm/) is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind. As a metaphysical position, solipsism goes further to the conclusion that the world and other minds do not exist. As such it is the only epistemological position that, by its own postulate, is both irrefutable and yet indefensible in the same manner."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism

DW befriended a new mom, and in sharing parenting styles, the new mom declared we must be AP parents... and DW said, "What's that?"

Long story short, we got some literature on the subject, nodded our heads at some parts, but openly rebelled at others, and declared ourselves definitely NOT AP parents. The major issues we had were the lack of boundary setting and the permissive disciplinary style. So far, it sounds like a lot of the self-identified AP parents in this thread had the same issues, and just decided to do that a different way.

As for the original question... depends on what you mean by "discipline." Individual responses will vary. The research says discipline done wrong (authoritarian) will break a child's spirit, and lack of discipline (permissive) will do it, too.

At the very least, we all know it is possible to break a kid's spirit by sticking them in a room for six to eight hours a day and telling them to learn but giving them nothing to learn. When they cope by daydreaming, call them out on it. When the work they turn is "too" creative, criticise it. When they voice new ideas, reach out to their neighbors, doodle, beg for actual learning, put a stop to it. I believe a term frequently used to describe this is maintaining discipline.

This is my understanding of the current default common sense position.

Is this problem what this book is about?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Price-Privilege-Generation-Disconnected/dp/0060595841

I am so unsure about both topics- discipline and messing my kids up. However I don't trust any of the people who think they've got it completely figured out any better than I trust myself. I do like hearing what other people have figured out so I can sift through it, eat the bones spit out the meat.
I fluctuate, and I prefer those times when it gels and I nail it perfectly. Short of that I just prefer that the struggling parts get over quickly so we can get back to normal because I'm pretty happy with normal. I'm pretty sure I'll mess my kids up some, and so will life, and so will they themselves. I'm also sure they'll be fine.
If you want to know about the sharing specifically, the boy has nice stuff in his room- a drumset, a computer, toy soldiers, nice break able stuff. I keep his door shut. He has toys that the girl could play with without breaking- stuffed animals, cars; I stop him from taking stuff away from his sister. I tell him, "You keep your stuff in your room and keep your door closed. If she gets ahold of your stuff you have to let her play with it. Keep it away from her. Take care of your stuff." Bonus: his toys aren't all over my livingroom, although the baby's still are. I'll have this talk with her in a couple of years. This, I've been told is extremely un-AP, that I do things a certain way for my own convienience. Yes, if I'm going to keep my kids with me all the time, then yes, I am going to do things for my convienence. It's not my call to make, but if I have my kids with me almost all the time I think that's pretty attached. I carry my babies long after they can and should walk so they're literrally attached, poor things. Like my husband... he goes to work and then he comes home to his family. I would call that attachment parenting if I could literally define it. Spend all your time and energy on your family. I'm not even sure that's the best way either. Too much time togeather leads to more arguements all around. More arguements lead to better understanding and more tolerance. Can you tell this is not black and white or even gray to me?My overall acting hypothasis is that I should try to focus on adding more good into it as much as possible and spend less energy trying to deal with the bad parts. The bad parts are a constant and you can't pretend they don't exist. But, they say, whatever you feed grows. Happy Halloween.

Ok, I don't feel too off base in my response to the scenario after reading everyone else's responses.

How things work at my house is that Bear and Wolf will eventually be sharing a room and they already share nearly all their toys. Each child has special toys that are specifically theirs and they always get to say what happens with those. They tend to be toys with emotional attachments or things they have bought themselves. If we have problems like the one in the scenario (almost never happens because they have been taught manners and how to treat each other...) the toy would get a time out if it caused a fight. If it was just Bear throwing a fit, he'd get a time out and Wolf would get the ball.

Time outs generally aren't timed at my house. They are a time out from the situation until you are able to handle yourself around people with some semblance of manners again. The kids almost always get to decide when a time out is over (Bear sometimes needs help putting himself back together due to his issues).

I'm not an AP parent; I'm a pick and choose parent. I nursed and wore both boys, but no co-sleeping. We have rules and insist on manners and politeness, but the worst "punishments" ever given are taking a time out from the situation and sentence writing for things that require specific focus.

I've been at a loss as to what to do with the parent of the children in the scenario. She is a close friend, but I truly feel that the lack of any form of boundaries and discipline is doing the children a severe disservice.

Well, I guess it boils down to which is the more important - that she remain a close friend or that she be told her parenting is doing her kids a severe disservice.

Now, if it boiled over into her kids creating unreasonable situations for your kids where she expected you to back up her parenting style, that is a different story.

Does the parent gave an inkling that what they are doing is ineffective? I think a lot of parents parent out of guilt (of course, we all do sometimes). A guilt-driven parent is much more receptive to advice then a parent who idealistically feels discipline is harmful. I would encourage a guilt-driven parent to let go of these worries and parent the way they know they should. If she is idealistically opposed to discipline, your "judgement" of her parenting may ruin your friendship.

That is do hard for you, I'm sure.

Unless you don't care if she never talks to you again, I wouldn't bother with critiquing her parenting. I am an attorney and I have actually had a few cases recently where such discussions resulted in the moms brawling and someone going to jail. I am not saying you would do that but I don't think there is much that gets a woman as mad as someone else telling her she is messing up her kids. So proceed with caution.

Is she close enough that you can call her on it when it happens and it not be a big deal? Something like, "What the heck do you mean 'break her spirit'? You mean keep her from becoming a entitled diva? When she pulls that nonsense over a pair of designer jeans in ten years you'll wish her 'spirit had been broken' earlier"

I probably only have one friend I could do that with. Everyone else, I would just ignore it.

Really most kids turn out okay despite these small glitches. I can not tell you how many kids I have seen in my neighborhood that people whispered (incl myself prior to having two older children) "oh he/she is going to have such problems when they grow up!" and, you know what? they are more than fine. Maybe the mom is not handling the discipline issue entirely well but she isn't abusing the children and it does seem to me like she is TRYING. We may disgree with how she is trying but she seems to want her children to feel loved, and she wants to do the right thing. I mean, seriously how hard is being a mom to more than one child? I am sorry but it is freaking HARD. I do much less than a stellar job on a very regular basis. I am pretty sure the receptionist at the doctor's office I go to posted on some message board or on facebook somehwere about what a bad mom that I am b/c my kids were both shoving lollipos in their mouth and I was letting them because my oldest just had two painful injections and I was trying out of there before the two of them brought the place down LOL. She actually said to my boys "Oh my you're mom is awfully lenient!" Then pointedly glared at me. I replied "Hahahah yeah that's me -Ms. Lenient! hahaha!" sarcastically. And to be quite honest I AM different in public than I am in private - sometimes I am just tryign to accomplish what we are tryong to accomplish without the general public or my friends being subject to ear-piercing screaming (becasue guess what? depending on the temperment of the child even the good parents can have a child that throws a tantrum). Anyway, my point is abusive behavior towards a child - yes say something. But this? C'mon. She'll find her way, and/or this phase will pass and I bet her children will grow up and be just fine, possibly even lovely girls.

I totally agree with this. Unless this is the case, I think instead of spending time and energy ruminating on what a bad mother she is, I would concentrate on yourself and your children. You can always lead by example - it's more powerful than a lecture on how you think she is screwing up.

I think most of us have been there at some time or another. I've been guilty of being too heavy handed with discipline when I should have realized my kids were tired or hungry.

I think the right amount and type of discipline is essential. Without it, our kids aren't prepared for the real world.

I really don't have the slightest idea of what to do with kids.

Then again, I have no real skill with adequately coping with the real world so I don't really have any idea what I'm supposed to do with kids.

Fortunately, I have a wife who stays home with the kids, so hopefully she knows what she's doing.

As a younger sib, you really get the shaft. My disorganized sister regularly rifled my school supplies. OK, you could say they weren't mine, but it was a notebook I took to school everyday that I could find it! Over and over, I'd go to bed (little kids have early bedtimes), only to find my homework/schoolbooks/ school projects rifled for older sibs needs.
I probably was too vague in my response. My kids would be in HUGE trouble if they took their siblings school supplies, or borrowed a bike that was needed to get to work! And if one of my dds (22 and 19) bought a car, I'd definitely expect that the other one would not borrow it without some express permission. I tried to differentiate between toys (the legos, or train set, or basketballs) which are pretty much shared, and clothes, for example, or make-up. Part of it also is that I set the rules for ds12 and ds10, but I don't set the rules for the older kids (beyond basic household/roommate expectations when they're here). Absolutely!!! - if a teen buys clothes or a bike or whatever (or gets them as a gift)- a sibling shouldn't be allowed to just take them. What I'm saying is when we have a playroom full of toys, most of which neither boy can remember who "owns," (again, they share a bedroom, a playroom, a desk and a Wii :)), it's silly to be arguing about a ball that one kid wasn't using but thinks is his.
Our oldest dd is very disorganized and I've made it 100% clear in the past that she can't "borrow" someone's keys because she's lost hers, or grab someone's graphing calculator because hers in in her messy room somewhere, or take her sister's curling iron to a sleepover because she didn't replace her broken one.
To me, the original post wasn't about sharing actually, it was about just being a nice person. Letting your sibling take your favorite sweater, that you planned to wear, because she didn't do any laundry- that's letting yourself get walked over (and parents should help the kid learn to stand up for herself). Not letting your sibling use a ball that won't in any way be "lessened" or used up when you're not doing anything with it is just being a little jerk (maybe not if you're five, but that's why parents step in and teach them that this is not nice behavior).
Anyway, everyone has different lines, and I'm sure we're all influenced by how we grew up, but I want my kids to learn to be kind and generous without being taken advantage of. There is a middle ground I think....

Kids are devious little monkeys who outsmart us all ;p I'm one of the stay at home moms who is supposed to know what she's doing, lol. (sigh)

The problem is things like this interferes with the moral idea that you *should* give what you have to someone else if they ask you regardless of how you feel about it.

This is great book on these very issues - how to discilipline and deal with sibiling rivalry without breaking the children's spirits. I think it's a great book for someone like the person described in the original post - someone who clearly wants to solve sibiling disputes with both children feeling loved and respected:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0380799006...=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&ref=pd_sl_5u4wvukiua_e

You could suggest that book or give it as a gift. I got it as a gift from a friend when my second child was born and I was very grateful for it. It's a really good book with lots of practical advice.

Jon Law, where on earth did you hear that idea? [citation needed]
I don't think martyrdom is very moralistic. Maybe I've just never met a martyr who was doing it right. Excercise empathy to guide your decisions. Cultivate a sense of community responsibility. Surely that's obvious. Certainly it's a work in progress.

Siblings Without Rivalry is a wonderful book and I use its teachings every day. I think it is aimed a slightly older kids, but it works even with young ones as long as you provide enough support.

I think that it would encourage you to get the kids to work this out without you having to be in the middle setting rules. That would mean prompting them to talk to each other about who the ball belongs to, who is using it, whether it will still be available after the older child is done playing with it, if there is a "favor" they could trade for it, etc. If everyone stays calm but they can't find a solution, then the ball gets a time out and no one plays with it. If anyone freaks out and starts hitting, they and the ball get a time out.

Ah, there we go.

Luke 6:30

"30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."

Found it.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/luke/passage.aspx?q=luke+6:30-38

I'm not saying this is intelligent or useful, just pointing it out.

It is a great book and offers good practical advice for the elementary age and up crowd. Unfortunately, our scenarios never seem to play out in the lovely ways described in the book.

Ok, a certain brand of moral. I'm a secular parent. I was thinking about raising moral kids. I am not raising Bible believing children. I'm also not consentual living natural parenting. I think that's the brand of hippy the post describes.

I wouldn't say anything to the mother specifically about how she should be raising her kids. Personally I think if every mother treated every baby like it was the baby Jesus the world would be a much kinder place. I might personally say snarky to the kid in front of the mother, if I was around them enough that knew to always expect that from me.

I think that's a common idea in a bunch of native american trads, too.

I worked for a guy with that worldview. He truly didn't understand why he shouldn't pay us in cash in the seediest area of town. He just didn't even think of *protecting* anything from humans.

Ok, some of the responses seemed to suggest that I am being judgemental of this parent's parenting style. I am, but simply to the extent that I have to deal with these children on a regular basis AND have had their mom comment to me many times about their behavior (she doesn't like it either, but doesn't want to break thier spirits). I would never tell her she is a bad mom or doing it "wrong". It's her family. Yes, I feel she is doing them a disservice, but that is my opinion and I am not her.

My real concern is that her children do not know how to interact in a polite manner with other people and that she can see this and doesn't seem to know what to do about it and not "break their spirits". I really appreciate the book suggestion and will find a way to get it into her hands.

We see these children multiple times a week and I babysit them every so often. The older child will behave at my house because when I was first watching her I was very clear that it was my house, not her home and that if she ever wanted to come back she would behave like a decent human being. I now rarely have trouble with her. The younger one hasn't had that talk with me yet. I know they are good kids, but it's SO hard for other people to see that because of the behavior.

I just saw this this morning and had to add it to this thread. I like to imagine that JonLaw was the man with the jam.

Wyldkat...

If she knows it's an issue and is not sure where to go, than I think you should speak up and help her see that expecting kids to get along and oz not going to damage them. You could remind her that they probably act very different at school where there are clear rules. I have a good friend whose kids are most likely naturally more sttong-willed than mine (and I see them every day st the bus stop). She was discussing how time-outs don't work tor her (though I can clearly see she gives LOTS of warnings with no follow through). Instead of challenging her consistency, I suggested the Transforming the Difficult Child workbook. She hasn't read it, and the kids are still a mess - but me suggesting the book didn't corrupt our friendship any.

Okay, honestly? I would be biting my tongue to avoid saying "honey, those spirits are just screaming to be broken, and the world will be a much happier place if you start now."

Okay, so probably that would be a bad idea...hence the tongue-biting. But seriously, I have known a few people who were perfectly lovely except that I couldn't stand their kids, and invariably, the friendship dies a pretty quick death. I am impressed as all-get-out that you ever made it to the point where you're willing to babysit them.

I'm very, very good at not having the slightest idea of what to do with my kids in public when they misbehave.

I salute the man with the jam!!! I just Facebook AND tweeted that.

There are so many insightful responses , but one thing I wanted to add, is that "spirit" itself comes in different strengths and therefore, one's approach to discipline needs to be adjusted to the child. For instance, I have one child who takes things to heart and it takes a fairly mild correction for her to change her behavior, whereas my other child (the one I post about on here) is very strong willed and high spirited and often requires a different approach.

At one point, I veered too much towards a heavy hand with her because of her intensity and argumentativeness, but now realize that it wasn't that I needed to use more force, but that I needed to use more finesse.

For me, there is no question that discipline is in service to the child. Self control and an ability to see oneself as a part of the world, not the entire world, not only helps her but makes her social life easier.

I also agree that the extremes of permissiveness and authoritarianism in parenting are not healthy,but I am sure there are times I error too far in both directions. I am far from a perfect parent and look back and wish I had done many things differently, but my underlying motive has always been love and the intention to create well balanced children, and somehow, in spite of myself, my children have turned out to be polite, creative, confident, self controlled, highly likable kids.

Lately, I've been feeling like I was handling public misbehavior better than I used to. The result seems to be MORE nasty comments from passers by. So many people seem to think they can solve tantrums in two seconds by saying some magic thing, and then when it doesn't work, they start informing me of the fact that DS will have to go to school soon, or that he shouldn't flail, he'll hit someone, or that it doesn't matter which transfer I gave his dad.

Welllllll, yes, folks, I kinda got that m'self, ya know...

Deep breaths, kids are an excercise in humility, remember, self?

Ug

Now, if Wyldkat shares a social network with the mother in question, posting this link might be a good way to handle the original situation :-)

LOL