Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional parent scribe questions

DD10, HG with dyslexia and dysgraphia, is in 5th grade. We have seen a huge bump up in homework load and writing requirements. As part of DD's 504, I am permitted to scribe for her. She also is allowed to use dictation software but is having a hard time with it. I'm trying to find a balance and figure out my role.

DD has weekly writing assignments where she needs to write a paragraph on some topic related to her independent reading, i.e. text-to-text connections, use of metaphors, identifying themes, etc. She also has longer book reports on a periodic basis.

I have been having DD do a first draft of her weekly assignments on the computer. They are pretty sparse and not very coherent. I have been asking DD questions and getting her to expand her ideas. I then type her expanded responses into her paragraph. I try to use her exact words but sometimes I fix things without thinking about (she's caught me on this once or twice). I think that we are coming up with a product that better reflects her thoughts but doesn't really reflect her writing ability.

Here are my concerns:
1) Even though I am permitted to scribe, am I helping/editing too much?
2) Am I creating a false expectation/perception of DD's writing ability?
3) How do I keep her from becoming too dependent on me?

Well, being her scribe only means writing for her, not editing. However, being her parent means helping her. I would personally avoid coming up withing phrasing, and instead use leading questions to get her where she needs to be.

knute, while we didn't ever do this for official 2e/dysgraphic reasons, (we did it for motor-skills reasons due to age), I did scribe in some capacity or another for DD until she was almost eleven. (We're with a virtual school, so the amount of written work is kind of crushing even for NT kids.)

Here's what I learned in doing that:

a) fading the support gradually is important if that is a goal (as I know that for some kids with disability, it isn't a realistic one),

b) I tended to scribe EARLY in the writing process, and let DD do the touching up part of things. This way, the organizational components happened under my watch, which helped her to practice truly good writing which reflected her thoughts.

c) Pick and choose depending upon which writing has the most to offer in terms of learning. Writing out answers to study questions, for example, was a non-starter. I never made her do that until quite recently (high school).

d) Make sure that the child has a chance to practice each component of the writing process-- and to know how to connect those elements to one another. That is, make sure that if you scribe pre-writing, the child has a chance to turn that into an outline or a draft. This is where I found that it was ultimately better for my DD's development as a writer if I were involved in the very beginning of the process (pre-writing/organizing/outlining) and in help with editing at the end.

e) keyboarding? That is a pretty essential skill. Until typing speed is up to par, scribing is fine... but again, with an eye toward moving the child to doing it.

We never had very good luck with VR software, either.

We've run into this same issue with ds12 (dysgraphic, disorder of written expression, expressive language disability related to written expression). I found that the thing that helped me most was to put our goals in perspective - our short-term goals are to ensure ds is able to demonstrate his knowledge via written expression while our long-term goal is to help ds become the best possible writer he can become (and to be able to write at the level he needs to the able to continue to pursue advanced coursework in the areas of his strengths). We're also continually seeking to balance that work with trying to make sure ds doesn't spend a ton more time on his homework than his classmates do due to his writing challenges.

For any writing assignment other than short-answer questions, ds does his best work (and more fully shows his knowledge) through talking it out with another person scribing. When I scribe for him at home I try to do it word-for-word etc exactly as he tells me what he wants to write, but we then go over it - I'll read it back to him or he'll read it out loud, we'll make sure he's said what he wants to say - if he has questions or gets blocked I'll help him brainstorm. Then when he has the gist of what he wants to write completed I go back over it with him to look for ways to better organize or add detail etc. I see that as most likely way more help with writing than most parents are giving their children at the same grade level, but also as very important to ds to enable him to learn how to write - there's no question that his dysgraphia/disorder of written expression make it very important to repeat repeat repeat the concepts that we're going through. Most of what I do with him is repeats of strategies his SLP has developed for him, but he isn't proficient at doing it on his own yet. His SLP says that just like handwriting, he'll need a lot of repetition to develop an automaticity of any kind with respect to written expression. I could leave it be, but ds would be frustrated with his work which leads to anxiety, and we would miss great opportunities for him to learn skills he really needs to learn.

Re will it lead to false expectations from school staff re ds' writing ability, I"m very up front about the support I am providing. I've also shared details re what his SLP has recommended, strategies, etc, so that his teachers understand we're working on real skills, as opposed to me just doing his work or prettying it up for a better grade. His teachers also have an opportunity to see him write in class and work with him on writing in class where he doesn't have me so they have an idea of how challenging writing is for him. Over time, between this approach and having him continue speech/language therapy, his written expression really has improved, so from my perspective, it's better for ds to stick with the outside help than to leave him to struggle on his own.

FWIW, ds is using an iPad in school this year, and he's *really* really started to work more independently with the speech-to-text option on the iPad. He's tried Dragon on his laptop in the past and found it cumbersome so he'd never really used it. Once I had an iPhone I downloaded the free Dragon for grins and found that my dds (younger than ds) could fairly easily record messages without too many mistakes. I found out later on that the online Dragon works so well because it uses such a large database of voices (you dont have to train it to recognize your voice - it works without that). When he got his iPad I made him try Dragon - and sure enough, it worked really well and he liked it, but cut/paste to other docs etc was a bit clunky for him. And then.... with NO help or egging on from me (since I was too busy to even think about it lol!)... ds found the built in voice-to-text option on the iPad keyboard and he's been using that on almost all of his homework, without me nagging or urging him to. So that's my other small piece of advice - there is easier to use voice-to-text technology out there, and I think we'll find it continues to improve at astonishing rates. If you have an iPad you might want to have your dd give it a try.

Best wishes,

polarbear

FWIW, I don't know re Knute's dd, but sometimes people with fine motor dysgraphia (my ds) have related challenges with typing - ds can type faster than he can use handwriting, but he is never going to be efficient at keyboarding, even when he uses word prediction software.

Definitely not true for many dysgraphics, but very much a challenge for some!

polarbear

My son's keyboarding skills really weren't fluent until the end of 5th/beginning of sixth.

I used to do a lot of scribing for him, and while the part where he dictated and I typed was an accommmodation, I also helped him with grammar, spelling, and arrangement. Why? Because I used to help my older kids with their homework. That part of called just being a parent helping your kid with homework and is no different than helping them figure out how to solve problems in math.

What I did was first just type the words he dictated with no capitalization and no grammar. I did spell the words correctly. Once we'd finished dictation, he would sit with me and go through the piece line by line. If he missed commas, capitalizations, etc., I would go back through and ask him about those and suggest that perhaps that section would need a comma based on such and such rule. I also pointed out words that were commonly misspelled and explained why it was they're instead of there, etc.

For long assignments like multi-page papers, he still uses me as a scribe, but I now make him develop an outline for the paper either on an iPad, his computer or with pencil and paper.

As for keyboarding, DD is pretty slow and writing is faster. About a year ago, we tried typing instruction with an OT who specialized in 2e kids. It provoked major anxiety issues, particularly when the OT tried to get her to increase her speed. I encourage her to type whenever possible but right now, it's just another stressor. I've been trying to gauge whether it is time to do some low-key instruction again.

Those of you who are using an ipad. Which version do you have? I have an ipad2 and don't see a voice to text feature on the keyboard. Is this an ipad3 feature?
We have tried Dragon on the ipad but it doesn't seem to recognize DD's voice. We are talking maybe 50% recognition. It provides great entertainment value but so far is not a viable option for reducing her writing burden.