Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional No understanding of wrong

Nautigal, remind me, I think I remember your DS is on or near the autism spectrum? Or am I thinking about someone else's kid? Trying hard to keep 'em all straight here.


I doubt it.

My DS9 (2E, AS) has had a very hard time learning the skill of "taking responsibility for his own actions." We started with rote teaching (1. have a pleasant voice, 2. admit what I did, 3. apologize, 4. don't say anything else right away). Step 4 prevents the "buts." We have moved to more complex explanations involving trust, all the "whys" of apologizing gracefully, but first we had to get him to understand the outward behavior that's expected.

(I know, lucounu, you don't believe in empty apologies, but in the autism world we are pretty much "fake it till you make it"-- it is interesting that a correct emotional response, shame, can follow if you teach the right physical and verbal responses first.)

Perfectionism leading to cheating is not unusual in the least. Most college plagiarism comes from that desperate, impulsive state. It's important to nip the cheating in the bud, but I'd be focusing more on the "accepting responsibility" skill, just because it's a dealbreaker by middle school if you can't apologize and move on. Everybody screws up, so everybody needs this skill.


I suspect that once he finds out that cheating was a bigger deal than he thought, and a bad grade is not, you will have made it worth it to him to not cheat. Maybe praising him in other areas for doing his "honest best" and finding stories where someone takes the high road will support this too?

DeeDee

ETA: the other thing we do for DS that's relevant here is meds for anxiety, along with open conversation about what's worth getting upset about and what isn't. He's come a ways with this.

Yes, that's exactly how I read the situation when it was my DD cheating.

"captain literal" made me laugh out loud! I have one of those as well ;-)

Makes for some interesting conversations though!

Cheating was a big, classroom wide issue in my DD's class this late winter/spring. I was not "contacted" so she was not one of the problems, but it was pretty widespread.

The school has been high-ranking for years but has been very slowly slipping and they want to get back up there.

This is a big year for her grade taking assessments, and the introduction of core standards or whatever they're called. The whole school is one big stress machine. The cheating issue was the subject of many dinner conversations. At first DD had a shoulder-shrugging attitude when we talked about the seriousness of this, that we were proud of her for not following this path, and she made comments to the effect that it could be the way to go, easier, that sort of thing. Then she slowly came around when we talked about how it would hurt her in the long run and it was like lying (she hates it when people do that) and people not following rules (including teachers who are under pressure to cheat as well).

In today's ranking-oriented and competitive environment, there is alot of stress on kids even if we don't put it on them directly. That plus the natural perfectionism and other elements of a gifted kid can add to the mix. To me it's something to be continuously aware of and monitored, but doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a child at all. There are many temptations out there and character building takes a long time and requires guidance and attention.

First a disclaimer - I am not a psychopath (and I'm also a parent who places huge importance on teaching my children our family values, which include honesty and not cheating)... and.. I have to agree with your ds, I don't understand why he needs to write an apology letter.

This is just my take on it, and I wasn't there and don't know your ds, but fwiw - he's (I'm guessing) going to have some type of consequence for the cheating at school. You've talked with him about it at home, and about how it relates to your family's values. You've expressed your disappointment to him. I probably wouldn't tell my child to write an apology letter.

I've also known quite a few 9 year olds in my life - and it's not all that unusual to try to cheat or steal or do something like that once. For most kids, doing it once and getting caught leaves enough of an impression to never do it again. Unless this was a pattern and it's happened before, I wouldn't worry about it predicting any dire future behaviors.

I would, however, be sure to address what was going on underneath the surface that led to cheating - was he just trying to get a good grade, or was he worried that he *had* to get a good grade - understanding his internal motivation and helping support him if he's worried about perfectionism etc would be what I would focus on, rather than extending the guilt and apologies.

polarbear

Yes, he is 2E, AS as well, DeeDee. You're right that it's a battle just for the faking it part, usually.

He had to write an apology letter because DH told him to, but what I was trying to do was to get beyond the "faking it" to try and get him to understand why what he did was wrong. These are the discussions that make my head hurt. As it turns out, DH told the principal that the reason he had to write an apology letter was to waste his time the way he wasted the school's time having to write him up and call home to make sure he got his pink slip signed. I didn't personally think that it was such a great idea to say it was for wasting time, but ...well, anyway. I was trying to get it past the pro forma apology and into the understanding of the matter, so that he wouldn't just be "forced to apologize" without knowing why.

His punishment at school for this was a pink slip and one day of detention (stay in at recess and specials). We really wanted him to understand that it was more serious than that, to get it into his head that this is unacceptable. (Not to mention ridiculous, given the fact that he almost never misses a spelling word anyway -- occasionally one on the Morrison-McCall 50-word tests, resulting in GLE of 12th grade or 13th.)

He does go to a counselor outside of school, though insurance battles have led to it being rather sparse this school year.

To top this all off, the principal sent an email today. She talked with him some more when he turned in his pink slip, and she reports that he mentioned cheating on the SATs to get into a better college. Good thing he won't be taking those for a while! DH has him doing a report on the SAT cheating scandal of the past year, which I'm afraid will be regarded by him more as research than as deterrent. Gak! Well, at least we know he wants to get into a good college, and that he will, one way or another.

Hi Nautigal,

Have you done any CBT with him? They are pretty good at changing unreasonable thinking.

We have a professional, but also do a lot of explaining ourselves, and just keep making sure the consequences in our house line up to encourage the right behavior.

I think it will take a while for your DS to understand the abstract reason why we don't cheat, but if you keep working on this kind of thinking, it WILL come over time.

DeeDee

First of all - read through this -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg's_stages_of_moral_development

He isn't acting in a very mature way, but that might be appropriate to his age/stage. Some gifted kids are advanced in some areas - this doesn't seem to be his. OTOH, if he wasn't personally involved, his 'moral reasoning' might be quite advanced.

"the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." King James Bible

I take that to mean that what a person understand is always more difficult to apply.

I think it's great that he realized that he wasted everyone's time, that time is precious, and that now he is 'in the penalty box' for a while. Howard Glasser has a long riff about how basically every punishment is some form of being prevented temporarily from doing the good stuff - ie having your time wasted. He thinks that even a spanking represents wasted time.

Anyway, you can't expect him to learn much in the middle of a storm. When things are going well, narrate aloud the process you go through of getting an impulse to do wrong and show him how you mentally process the possible outcomes. You might want to read "I Can Problem Solve"

www.thinkingpreteen.com/icps.htm
I Can Problem Solve (ICPS) Program For Families. The focus of this program is on developing a set of interpersonal cognitive problem solving skills that relate to ...


2 How upset was he about the possibility of getting a wrong spelling? If he was really anxious, I would see that as perfectionism and advocate like @@@@@ to get him accomidated spelling words and a few other things.

Please stop telling him that he should expect to miss items on tests. It's like you are saying one thing and doing another. Hard to think that YOU get blamed for the actions of his school but from the child's point of view, all adults are basically working together. SHOW him that you believe in his enough to place him in an educational setting where he can make mistakes and ALLOW him to experience what it's like to MAKE mistakes and STILL by loved by you. When he complains that he feels like you won't love him, he really is saying that HE can't love himself. Your Mission, if at all possible, is to get him into environments where he gets to learn to handle making mistakes and keeping loving himself through them. Kids are way to concrete to be 'told' that something is 'normal' they have to experience many things for themselves.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I remember being the same way. In 1st and 2nd grade I was a straight A student, working ahead in the books and just on top of everything. Then I transfered to a private school for 3rd grade and that is when everything got overwhelming.

I remember drawing a picture and getting yelled at for it because I was supposed to be doing an assignment and I didn't understand what the big deal was. I remember having a math test and not knowing how to do any of the problems at all and then just writing random numbers. None of it made sense to me but I got my test back and saw I failed and I remember just not caring because I didnt understand. Later on my mother told me she cried at night because I struggled so hard and was so frustrated.

I remember stealing around that time in my life too. I stole from 3 different stores in one day at one point..just stupid stuff like balloons or candy. I got caught because I offered some to my godmother after she took me with her to a party store.

She told my parents and they cracked down on me hard. I remember crying in my parents room. The made sure I understood that what I did was wrong. I remember after that I was different. But during that time in my life I wasn't able to comprehend certain things.

I'm glad my parents did what they did when they were strict with me. They made me go back to each store and return what I stole and apologize, it was hard but it opened my eyes. Now I am one of the most empathetic people I know but I'm not sure why I was like that back then. I always wondered why I was like that and then others around me seemed to be normal and not getting in trouble like me. I don't know how I didn't realize the things I did were wrong looking back on it but with the love of my parents I made it through.

No matter how angry I got, how much I failed, or anything I did, my parents never once gave up on me and they helped me grow to where I am today.

I think there method would work well here, enforcing punishment and maybe he should directly apologize to the principal himself. I also got in trouble when the secretary of my school used to give me my ADD medication everyday, i used to throw it on the floor after she walked away because I was mad that I needed it. They found out and my parents made me apologize to her.