Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy other parents and envy/jealousy

This doesn't stop just because your child leaves elementary school.

::sigh:: If only.

If you have a child (like mine) who is a social chameleon (also an area of PG, quite frankly), then anyone who meets her in only ONE venue is likely to believe that what they see of her is what she IS.

Ergo, when they learn that my 13yo is a highly successful (top 0.5% of her class) high school student, they assume that we must be:

a) making it up (ohhhhh... but she's homeschooled, so... Uhhhh, no. She's NOT homeschooled.),

b) somehow gaming the system to make her appear smarter than she is (? yeah, I don't get this one, either),

c) whipping her through crushing amounts of work (this also mystifies me, since I doubt that it's even technically possible at this level),
or

d) keeping her enrolled in some third-world equivalent of 'actual' high school (Really? You might try this on for size and see what YOU think of it... lots of families leave because it is MORE work than a B&M school).


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The problem is that they seldom keep such thoughts to themselves. There is a profoundly judgmental quality to this-- that is, the notion that we are being "abusive" to our child by... well, hothousing, I suppose. Underlying this, naturally, is this need that other parents seem to have to cut my child down to size so that-- well, perhaps so that their own kids don't seem 'inferior' to them by comparison.

That one boggles my mind-- do they also nudge the incredibly gifted athlete's parents after a huge win and say "Oh, but s/he's got all that private instruction. Otherwise s/he'd be pretty typical."

Do they murmur to the young musician's parents; "I'm sure that s/he would be much like the other kids if you allowed him/her to just have other interests."

I don't know-- maybe they do actually behave that way.

It sure is irksome, though. It bothers my DD, too. What those parents fail to appreciate is that she is the real deal, and also has the exceptional perceptions of a much older person. Most 13yo's might not notice if an adult were talking to their parents about them. DD notices and fully understands the underlying implications in these statements.

It undermines her self-confidence terribly.

Why on earth would another parent say "Oh, right-- but she's really just a middle-schooler," when my child is nearing the end of her high school career?? Do they think that we have forgotten that she's 13?

I suppose on the asynchrony front, such nonsense is something of a back-handed compliment. It does indicate that DD is comfortable being exactly who and what she is, after all. She can be multiple ages in different peer groups.

How do other parents handle this kind of thing with sensitive teens, though? I don't like how this sometimes leads DD to question her legitimacy intellectually.

I totally get it. I am not naturally an assertive person, and my first instinct is to stop demanding that my son get a decent education every time someone implies that I'm making it up, or forcing him into extra study that he doesn't want. (For the record, he told me the other day that he doesn't know much about history, so he wants a history book for his birthday). It's really difficult to keep advocating for your child in these circumstances. Even family does this. My own mother berated me for demanding a challenge for him, since apparently good grades are the only thing that is important. A friend of mine has a son who appears to be quite bright, but has some minor speech issues. When I mentioned how frustrated I was that DS was not getting the math instruction he needed (they stuck him on a computer with some advanced math, and had him figure it out on his own), she told me that I should just be happy that my son is doing well, and as the mother of a child who had a "real" problem, she thought I should just shut up about it.
The way DS is treated is even worse. His school librarian allowed him to only choose books within a year of his grade level. When I sent a note asking that he be allowed to read more advanced books, he was politely told that he wouldn't be able to understand the other books, and perhaps he should explain that to his mother. Really? How do you tell a child who WANTS to challenge himself that he is not capable of doing so?!? Last year when I started sending a notebook of extra work to school with him so he didn't spend 3-4 hours of the day drawing pictures, his teacher told him to put it away because it was "distracting" to the other students. (If your child is distracted by a spiral notebook and a pencil, he or she should be medicated, in my opinion). Poor DS is left feeling like it's a negative thing that he enjoys learning.
It's frustrating, I know. I wish I knew what to do about it. For now, thought, I've learned to save all brags to this board, and try to teach DS that he should be proud of his accomplishments without necessarily getting the credit he deserves from anyone outside our own home.

Yeah, I expect it in response to brags. This is more about people who are-- unsolicited-- asking questions, and then challenging the legitimacy of the answers.


It's the "what grade are you in?/how old are you?" conversation, basically.

Too many parents consider their children as their own status symbols. "See, I'm totally awesome, because I made THAT!" So if you say something that indicates your child is doing better than theirs in some way, they perceive it as an overt statement that you're better than them (because they assume you do the same over-identifying with your child that they do). This leads them to a defensive posture, as they attempt to protect their own silly insecurities.

So, I'd explain this to my own teenager, and my message would be, "Don't let that parent's insecurities feed your own."

Well, the issue could be a concern about the *future*.

If you produce average kids, and you are above average, then your future is at risk and you will suffer relative decline, possibly resulting in you falling into the ranks of the masses, with your life ending in defeat and despair.

Whereas, if you have wonderful, brilliant, shiny children, there is a good chance that your star will rise and you will spend your sunset days basking in the triumph of your progeny.

I just watch what I say and who I say it to. (Mind you, my kids aren't teens yet so maybe the dynamic will change). I'm lucky as well in that I have friends with gifted kids, so I have people I can talk to.

The issue that I have is people not understanding their emotional intensities (but that's a whole other thread ;)) It's easy to not talk about the gifted math program that starts for DD9 in September, but when she overreacts to a friend's comment or gets overly competitive or riled up and loses her social graces, that's more of a challenge at this point. People just think she's a brat. sigh.

Anyway, I just choose who I talk to very carefully. The same goes for another giftie Mom friend of mine. And you're right - people treat athletically, musically and artistically talented kids much differently than they do intellectually advanced kids.

I've mulled over what sociological/anthropological reason(s) could explain it (like, way back in time, the jocks were the food catchers, the artists were the cave painters, the musical ones made people happy, but the smart ones were misunderstood and thought to be crazy? Dunno). Also when people see art and sport or hear music, they think "I could do that if I practiced" but when they see evidence of higher intellect it makes them feel badly about whatever talents they may possess so they get defensive.

Whatever. sigh.

Parents take far too much credit for their child's achievements (and also failures). I thought I was the best potty-training parent on the planet until I tried with my daughter...it became clear to me that my ds trained himself.

A little tangential, but on the complaining side of giftedness, I see it this way: I was infertile for many years and bristled at pregnant women's morning sickness tales or got downright angry at parents' flippant remarks about their kids. They had every right to complain (parenting is exhausting)...but I didn't want them to complain to me.

I imagine it could be seen the same way between a gifted child vs one with learning difficulties. Even if we're dealing with 2e...some parents may still not be able to empathize with our hardships.

LOL. Yes, I think that is just it. It's the vicarious impulse in parents to over-identify, or at least assume that anyone who might be overstating their kid's ability is doing so. We may be extra sensitive to this because of the frequent (over the years) accusations of helicopter parenting borne of our need to be involved to manage DD's (life-threatening) medical issues.

It's rhetoric which stops just short of;

"Huh. Well, I've seen your kid. Your kid doesn't seem like such a freak to me."

Gee--

Thanks??

If I'm honest, I've actually heard that statement from some people over the years-- and I'm less offended by that one, honestly stated, than I am about the sort of sly "because she's not that weird, it must be YOU, not her" (in spite of any evidence to the contrary). The honest statement is a compliment, if an awkward one to say to most parents. That one is related to how 'well-adjusted' our kids are. THAT is a statement that I will take credit for, because I do feel that we've had a lot to do with that one. It's the 'you're making it up somehow' vibe that rankles.


I'm kind of wondering-- at what point does this nonsense stop? DOES it stop??

That is, will my DD as a college graduate still be hearing "Oh, but you're really just a high school kid," from some insecure person?? "Oh, but you really just a college kid..."


Sometimes I just want to get her a teeshirt that says "I'm probably smarter than you, but I'm also good at not making YOU feel awkward. If it doesn't bother ME, why should it bother YOU??"

It's very peculiar that some PG kiddos get dismissed for their very ability to blend in and not make waves with peers. To meet unstated and nuanced expectations just about perfectly, basically, means that you're viewed as "can't possibly be unusual in any way."

I keep telling DD that someday that ability is going to matter even more than her raw IQ will. That is, the ability to put others at ease and effortlessly, graciously interact with them at whatever level they happen to be at is an incredible PG-level gift, too. Even if it does lead some of them to interpret that as her not actually being intelligent.

Which is mostly a problem for her dad and I, I suppose. It makes us indignant for her as often as it makes her doubt whether she's really all that different. It's not quite dumbing-down, but when it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy in the hands of another adult, then it is obviously a problem. They see what they expect to see, basically. She is also a great one for internalizing the judgments of other adults into her self-image. So we do worry about that.

She doesn't spend a lot of time with same-age peers, so her frame of reference is somewhat limited. The general scenario is that she enjoys the novelty of kids her own age. For a while, that is. Then it gets old because they tend to like HER a lot more than she likes them in large doses.

Am I wrong to consider statements like "Oh, yeah-- my ________ could probably have skipped a grade or two, too, in elementary school" as kind of toxic?

(And not a little disingenuous, by the way... while it might be true in one subject for some kids, it's rarely true that those kids could be grade-skipped twice and thrive longterm.)

I think that things like that, said about obviously average, or even 'bright' kids... in front of my DD... are pretty much intended to diminish her self-image.

But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the unspoken part of the statement isn't "So YOU aren't so special" but instead it is "but WE understood that it would be harmful to accelerate OUR precious children...."

Maybe we as her parents are the targets? I honestly don't think this is about us feeling defensive or threatened. We dislike adults who 'call out' her age/grade in positive ways, too. It always feels inappropriate to us, regardless of whether it's "ohh, you must be some kind of GENIUS!!" or if it's the kind of thing I've been referring to here of, "She doesn't seem so smart to me."


Added to this context is the fact that DD, whose academic peers are Ivy-bound 16-17yo's, often compares herself to those peers and thinks that she's "nothing special" by virtue of being 'omnibus' gifted rather than having an area of profound ability with everything else being more moderately exceptional and acting as a foil to highlight the singularity. Multipotentiality strikes again, basically.

That is, she isn't a "mathy" or "scienc-ey" or "geeky" or "wordy" kid. She's more-or-less average/normative against any of THOSE kids. It's a weird area of distorted perception for her, honestly. She doesn't seem to grasp that her Mathy friends don't have her ability in English and debate, and that her Writer-friends aren't also in the math track that she is. Oh, and that they're all a couple of years older than she is to start with, and most of them are really working at it.

So we worry considerably about any whiff of toxic 'you should doubt yourself a little more' verbiage from other adults.

CCN...

Why I like this board : I was also pondering the etiology of this "if I'm smart then I'm better than you" assumption. I'm sure there is a huge historical component with education being only for the "elite upper class". Here's another stab:

Intellectual giftedness is much more overarching than specific "skill" giftedness. People often attribute skill giftedness with an admirable work-ethic, as if there was no genetic "headstart". But people often see I.giftedness with the same contempt as fashion models: "They didn't DO anything special. They were just born that way.
2)

Well, truth be told, I guess as a parent I view it that way, too. I'm not 'proud' of DD's status as a PG person.

It just is, in our estimation. Like being born with curly hair or blue eyes. Genetics, of course, played a large role, and I suppose one could argue that we were open to it at a relatively early age, but beyond that, there's simply no way that a parent could "cause" any of what DD has become.

But to lash out at someone with the intention of diminishing what they ARE is bizarre, to say the least. That's like trying to convince someone that their child's hair isn't REALLY all that blonde. ??? And to do that to a young teen who is already self-conscious about her appearance-- is, well, toxic.

I think you and you dd have every right to feel offended at those snarky interactions...if was more about their own baggage and not your dd's.

Sadly, I just don't see it as bizarre because I've seen too much nastiness like this (I may be skewed. I'm a therapist). People often devalue the super rich that have inherited their fortune instead of "earning it". In fact, I think people tend to devalue the attributes and accomplishments of others (not all people, not all the time).

Isn't that what TMZ or The Enquiror is for? Exposing how NOT special rich and famous people really are?

Sigh. I love thinking up snarky (however slight) comebacks when my clients are dealing with a lot of passive aggression. Maybe you and she can brainstorm...that's usually thee best part.

I've come to the thought pattern that I'm unlikely to change the world and it's perceptions, even if I could I'm not going to devote that much time to it when I have my own child right in front of me with their own unique challenges and needs. Our solution is to take advantage of the typical gifted child's mind and sensitivities by teaching them some phycology. We’ve taught our children that everybody has their unique set of blessings and challenges and we all have a difficult time understanding somebody else’s gifts and challenges. When there is something we don’t understand people often jump to conclusions, those often being the simplist explanations, even if they are hurtful, negative, or plain rude. We’ve also taught our children that people will also often become attacking or demeaning when they feel defensive or put other’s down to make themselves feel superior. That behavior is simply showing a lack of self-confidence.

Sometimes we don’t give kids enough credit, especially our own gifted children. My kids completely understood the thought patterns expressed above even at an early age, in fact, they actually felt sorry for the people who exhibited such behavior and even said prayers for them. We often can’t change the world’s perception, try as we might, we can, however, change how we deal with them. If these people are in our child’s life daily, obviously it needs to be addressed and another solution pursued, however, for the comment made from the casual meeting, some education in phycology goes a long way.

When it comes to people in our child’s everyday life making such comments, the best solution is educating them in a calm, genuine, and helpful way about the truth and realities. If that doesn’t remedy the situation, then it’s time to get higher ups involved or simply find a way to remove our child from the person being involved in their daily life.

I guess, in short, take the high road, nothing good is going to come from anything else.

Good advice, OldDad.

DD similarly sees the more overt variety of nasties in that light. Or at least she always has.

I've mentioned elsewhere that this is one of those socially-PG things that she seems to have always had a grasp of.

It's the more sly stuff that we see being harmful to her now that she's a somewhat insecure adolescent. It feeds self-doubt in some very particular ways, and plays into task-avoidant perfectionism, which she's had trouble battling.

Same-age peers often are so fond of DD that they will act as though the PG thing isn't a problem (well, more properly the grade placement difference isn't), but then it turns out that there is a subtle but continuous 'patter' of negativity and "me-too" attempts at one-upsmanship from both the peer and not infrequently the child's parents, as well.

It's the low level barrage that we see being of concern. The more overt material DD knows well enough for what it is. She lacks the maturity to see the low-level inundation in the face of a contrary statement in that same light, though.

Any advice on how to manage that aspect of things? My inclination is to remove DD from situations like this, but with an adolescent, that becomes less and less a viable solution. I guess we can talk about 'healthy' relationships and unhealthy ones.

I just wish that there were more that we could do about it.

From what I've started to understand about myself, I honestly spend far more time stressing about my 2e's education, homework, performance, etc., than most parents do. But I can talk about his deficits all day long and get commiseration and kind comments from parents. But let me talk about my gifted kid with no 2e issues, and the rules change. They just do. People like to meet us in a place of commonality; that's human nature. But when our kid is so uncommon, that is very hard to do.

So my policy has become this: if a person is making snide, unkind, unsolicited remarks within hearing of my child, mother bear is deployed in full force. My kid needs to know I will defend them and that being gifted is nothing that should be disparaged. But if a person makes a comment that comes off as unsettling or unkind within the course of an adult conversation, I tend to simply remove myself from the conversation in the most graceful way possible. I will not change others' insecurities, biases, or judgments of me and my stellar parenting skills (bwahahaha), so I won't begin to try.

Sorry to be so vocal, here, I feel empassioned for some reason. I think everyone has a bit of a 'mean-girl' in them...and that really does seem to come out the worst in adolescence.

Here's what I teach my teens:

There's different ways to handle conflict, and different ways are warranted by the situation at hand.

1) Aggressive: actively trying to deal with conflict in a hurtful way (whether emotional or physical).

2) Passive: doing nothing (or avoiding) in the face of conflict.

3) Passive-Agressive: handling conflict by attempting to hurt someone in an underhanded way, so that you are saying one thing but implying another by your actions or expressions.

4) Assertive: actively attempting to solve your side of a conflict without knowfully causing harm (either mentally of physically).

The best remedy to passive-aggression is assertiveness. But this is sometimes extraordinarily hard to teens (and adults) to master. That is where the 'comeback' coaching I talked about earlier comes in. I don't mean that you help your dd think of nasty things to say to her friend. But maybe, if your dd feels like her friend is getting really irritated with her recent great grade or academic success, she could say, "It seems like you're mad that I got an A". The other girl may not agree (most likely will not)...but asserting oneself and calling attention to the underhand stuff often shuts it down.

4)

What kind of strategy is suitably respectful but assertive with the parents of those friends, though?

(Right now, this is an issue with a boyfriend and his parents, so that is why I ask.)

Yes!! As in, we can't change other people, but what we can change is how we react to other people.

Soooooo difficult when a child/teen is being slyly chastised by an adult. The rules of conduct say that a teen should bite his/her tongue lest he is seen as disrespectful. I talk with my teens about when you DO have to be passive to a conflict because of authority issues (principal, police).

If it is occuring in front of you, I think you have every right as a parent to assert for your child by calling the other parents out on it (even if it's when the teens are conveniently on a walk...). If it's when you are not there, I think it is would be something that the BF needs to address with his parents.

I guess I'm likening it to "in-law" rules: You deal with your people; I'll deal with mine."

So tough. I was not liked by my future mother-in-law for a myriad of reasons, and it really did effect my self-esteem.

What we're looking at here is conflict management when insults, untruths, or defensiveness is involved. When it’s difficult or you simply can’t walk away from it, your best bet is to get to the core of the problem. That’s usually done through calmly asking clarifying questions such as;

“What makes you feel that way?”
“What gives you that impression / perception?”
“On what do you base your statement?”

Once the root of the problem is understood, gentle education of facts and reality is usually the best way to cure ignorance. It might take a different approach if the root problem is jealousy or feeling inferior. I usually go with the discussion of everyone has their blessings and challenges thought pattern and educate the person on the unique challenges that are involved as well.

When it comes to a boyfriend / girlfriend / spouse, it’s best to talk about where each person’s talents and challenges are and how both can work together as a team to be stronger together than they are as two separate people. My lovely and gifted wife has a grand array of skills, education, and intelligence, I have a different set of skills and a different kind of intelligence, however, we depend on each other’s strengths to balance our own short comings. It takes maturity to do that, something that teens haven’t yet developed. It might take some coaching to help either get over self and see how they can help each other to potential.

Sometimes the best thing we can teach our kids is that it's okay to say to adults "I'm sorry, but I simply don't feel comfortable discussing this with you." Assuming it's a case of the grownups cornering your daughter when she's socializing with their son. Which, fwiw, is just about the height of gaucherie, IMO.

If it's you they're cornering, the same response probably would work, too. Or the ever-popular "why do you ask?" and "I'm sorry, but you seem to be mistaken."

In that case, isn't the appropriate response to say something along the lines of:

"I am profoundly more than you in ways in which you can only begin to comprehend. We have spoken enough for now and I grow tired of your questions. You are dismissed."

I'm confused a bit here. Are the negativity and one-upsmanship problems with the parents of the boyfriend or both the boyfriend and the parents?

If this kind of negativity or one-upsmanship is coming from the boyfriend, I'm thinking that it's time to have a sensitive and gentle talk with your daughter about the importance of getting involved with people who respect you and who treat you with respect. And the equal importance of avoiding "friends" who make you feel bad.

Agreed, Val-- and eldertree, too. Gaucherie. Yes. JonLaw, my DD is probably fully capable of actually saying that, but probably not with a straight face. We've been gently exploring the fact that being asynchronous means having different peer groups for different things, yes... but it doesn't mean DENIAL of the other parts of yourself for others' comfort. True friends will not ask that of us.

DD has been distancing herself from the entire situation over the past few days, and this is a part of the reason why. The other reason is that she's... just... not.. THAT... into him (and he is VERY into her, which she is beginning to find mightily irritating).

The parents are one thing, but nobody needs this subtle stream of "you're not really as good as you think you are" from peers who are theoretically "friends." Of any sort.

But then again, I think that some of it may be coming from the parents... as in the peer in question may be feeling that DD (a rising 11th grader) is a bit of a... er... well, that she might be out of his league or something?

And maybe his parents are reassuring him that this isn't so by delegitimizing DD's very real intellectual standing?

The reason that I wonder is that this didn't start until after the two of them let on to parents about the budding relationship. Our approach was "Hey-- that's really cool that he's not intimidated by the grade difference," but then that seems to maybe have not been so true after all... since now it seems to keep coming up, and I can guarantee that it isn't DD bringing it up.

Interesting also that the mom made a crack about DD to my DH over the weekend that really had him steaming. He was dropping their DS off after a social thing, and it was just an opportunistic jab. Weird. We aren't the ones thinking that our DD is "too good for" their son... but they seem to be downright determined to act preemptively just in case.

It's turned into a downright odd situation.

I really appreciate everyone's insights into this one. It is helpful to get some additional ideas to impart to DD.

While I suspect that your dd is probably more gifted than mine and more accelerated, a lot of what you've said in this thread and this part, in particular, resonates. Mine is 13 and just started her sophomore year of high school (she'll be 14 fairly soon). She, too, compares herself to the most advanced sophomores in her peer group/grade although most of them are 15-16. There are about 500 kids in her class and it is one of the highest performing schools in our state so the top 10-15% of the class are 4.0+ students and taking a plethora of AP, pre-AP, accelerated classes and many taking "zero hour" classes so they can fit more hard classes into their schedule.

Dd doesn't see herself as particularly special in comparison especially b/c she opted not to take two science classes this year as she did last and isn't enrolled in a 6 a.m. zero hour class. She probably recognizes that she is better at English/reading/writing than many of her grade peers, but weaker in math than some/those for whom math is a strength as well.

We've seen a lot less of the issues you describe in regard to cutting her down to size since she's pretty much stopped socializing with age peers, though. In regard to the boyfriend issues that is a problem in and of itself b/c, the one boy she was dating briefly in her grade was much older and that creates its own set of problems. There was no need to downsize her in his mind or his parents' minds, though, as far as I could see, but once she let on that she was 13, which he didn't know, that was kind of the end of the relationship (which, honestly was fine given some hesitations I have about her dating older boys).

I have mixed feelings about letting the good majority of dd's friends be very bright older kids, but it does seem to have worked better. When she was younger, we too heard a lot of stuff from parents of kids her age about how their kids could skip grades too, etc. and, like you, knew that this was implausible if we were talking about the kids really being successful b/c these weren't HG kids (or often every MG kids). She kind of shut down these relationships herself in favor of hanging out with her grade peers over time.

I apologize if I've missed this in the thread earlier, but are you running into these issues with grade peers and their parents as well or just age peers and their parents?

Cricket, it seems to be just agemates.

The reaction from grade peers is a shrug, usually, and the reaction from their parents is curious awe (tempered by how socially astute they are).

We've tried to not 'force' DD to abandon age peers, but to explore for herself which peers are for which kinds of interactions and friendships. Our reasoning is that we can't possibly know which people have the capacity to meet which needs for her, ultimately.

She doesn't have a lot of natural interactions with age peers, though, and most of the 'natural' relationships that do develop with them seem to involve those who are technically not really age peers, but seem that way via placement in extracurricular activities. They often turn out to be about 2y older than DD, but are roughly compatible in terms of overall developmental levels. She has only three friends who are close to her in age-- one is nearly 14, one is 14 already, and one just turned 15. We consider those girls to all be "agemates" for DD, though she just turned 13. The one closest to her in age was 'grandfathered' in by virtue of a work-based friendship among parents, and the others just turned out to be compatible in terms of interests and temperment.

You've perfectly captured how DD sees herself. "Nothing special," basically. Her school almost treats her like a celebrity... but she doesn't really see it, because obviously the teachers aren't talking about her in front of her (which is good, of course-- she'd be mortified). Similar kind of academic peer group; filled with chess champs, INTEL science competitors, math Olympians, and semi-professional musicians/writers. I actually love that group of kids; they're really great people and they do a lot of community service projects together and as individuals.

She "hangs" with all of them and winds up in about the top 10% of whatever class she's in. However, many of her high school teachers have expressed open delight to me that they've "been waiting for years" to have her in particular in their class, or that "they always hoped that they'd have the chance to work with a student so gifted" as teachers.

Even DD picked up on this last year and was giggling after the school picnic that Ms. {12th grade Brit-Lit teacher} seemed pretty crestfallen that Ms. {Barracuda that has a mutual love-fest with DD} was going to "get" her in AP Lit instead this year. Sweet girl now says to me... Well, maybe I could take 12th grade Honors after AP, so that I could be in her class...

So clearly she is something different even from her peers in that setting, though she doesn't see herself as being exceptional. She is quite willing to label pretty much anyone older than herself in comparative and favorable terms-- often just taking their words for their competence, in all honesty. If a 17yo friend-of-a-friend tells her that they are a science geek and flash a little of what they (think) they know, well, she's happy to report that the person is "way smarter than I am." In other words, at 13, she hasn't yet figured out that saying you're a budding Einstein isn't the same as being one; a lot of these kids are mostly talk.


ETA: Now that I'm thinking about this more, though-- maybe she has figured out that these people are fulfilling some inner need of their own, and she's calmly-- and typically-- putting that front and center, accepting those statements and even reflecting them flatteringly-- in order to put others at ease. It's one of those things that she does as a social Jedi. Maybe I need to ask her some questions about this particular aspect of things, which hadn't occurred to me. I'm pretty sure that she doesn't really think that someone who "doesn't like to read" and found it "hard to learn" couldn't have actually completed a double grade skip.
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(We tend not to overtly correct her, so much as ask probing 'why do you think so' questions.)

I'm just wondering why her self-image seems to be so vulnerable to this kind of thing. It's mystifying to us.


I've read your own posts about the dating issues here, Cricket, and I agree-- it's rough either way. We were initially really pleased that the agemate thing seemed to be working, and figured that was preferable to a first boyfriend being four years older. (Now, of course, we're seeing the downside of this version of Boyfriend 1.0.)

DD tends to assume that her classmates will see her as "a little kid" (and maybe that third year in the gap makes the difference), though if it does we've not noticed it. Agemates that aren't academic peers are really intimidated by her. It's still a taboo to have a girlfriend who is this much smarter, apparently. I really wish sometimes that she didn't have sibling-type relationships with the handful of HG kids she knows well. They're a better peer group overall than either agemates (which they aren't-- quite) or grade peers (which they often are). When I mentioned one of those young men to her recently, though, she wrinkled up her nose and told me that "He's like-- MY BROTHER, MOM." (Complete with teen glare of outrage.)

At this point, she's pretty much writing off the entire "boyfriend" thing, though, so that may be an ultimate side benefit to this situation. LOL.

We see pretty much the exact same thing with our dd13. In math in particular, she's convinced that she's "bad" at it partially b/c she has friends who are in pre-calc this year and she's not, but again these other teens are 15-16. I recall last year that pretty much all of her teachers were shocked to learn that she was 12 at the start of the year b/c they assumed her to be one of the older students and I've had many teachers over the years tell me that she's one of the most gifted kids they've ever taught.

I see her willingness to view herself as "typical" gifted/bright as both a benefit and a drawback of grade acceleration. On the benefit end of things, she at least doesn't have a big head. In 4th grade, her GT reading class had an end of year poetry reading in which they read their own poetry and a dedication they had written. No fewer than two students had dedications that started with something like, "there is this girl in my class, [dd], who inspired me..." and, one of the moms, when she heard that dd was my child, went on and on about how she's heard some of her poetry and was amazed by what she could write. 6th grade the next year was much better in terms of her not being hero-worshiped.

The draw-back, as we've both seen, is that the child compares herself to what she views as her peers (high ability much older kids) and doesn't realize how special she is even in her weaker areas. I always remember what dd's 3rd grade teacher said to me, [dd's] "weak areas are other people's strong areas." (i.e. if other people's strongest suits were things that were interpersonal weaknesses for dd, they'd be really good at that area.)

Yes, exactly! That is precisely the same statement that we've heard from the gifted specialists. (Though my DD's weaker skills include written communication, at least unless she's having an 'on' day.)

The obvious problem outside the context of this situation is that DD still isn't challenged to that ideal '80%' level even among this peer group-- thus the interpretation that she's "about average" and that apparently everyone else doesn't work all that hard at academics, either, combined with rampant task-avoidant perfectionism and procrastination as a motivational tool-- but this is about as far as we're comfortable pushing things on the social front. We definitely don't want her to become the class mascot, as she's very sensitive to feeling like a circus freak. She desperately wants to "pass" in her peer groups, and mostly does.

We're all hoping that the boyfriend just sort of goes away after school starts at the end of next week. DH and I because of these concerns, and DD because he's kind of not taking "no" for an answer regarding unwelcome physical advances (which she's given him factually valid reasons for, and hard boundaries about), and he's super clingy-- almost obsessively interested in her. He's way needy, constantly texting-texting-texting her and bugging her to "see" her daily. Well, good heavens, she is BUSY. She's really just not that into him, and less so as he continues that behavior. He's now employed the typical junior-high technique of calling in his "posse" for backup, which... well, let's just say that this has seriously failed to impress DD.

Ugh. This reminds me of when I was around 6 years old and my mom dropped me off to hang out with a classmate. The parents were drinking beer and mockingly telling me to show them how well I could dance to their Bon Jovi music. I was in dance class at the time. Even at that age, I knew what they were doing was messed up and that I was being mocked. I was in dance class and I don't think their daughter was... There was a jealousy element at play (maybe because I lived in the nicer neighborhood or maybe the mom just didn't like my mother) and they were trying to bring me down a notch. I was 6!

They might not have been acting in a mean-spirited way, but just lightheartedly letting you know that they recognized certain differences. I'm reminded of the South Park episode Chicken Pox, which explained how we can live in harmony with such people:

Mr. McCormick: (saying grace) Lord, we thank you for this staggering payload of frozen waffles you have bestowed upon us. And since we have been faithful to you, we know you will send us some good fortune, one of these days, even though you sure as hell seem to be taking your sweet time. Amen.

* * *

Kyle's father: ... Kyle, we humans work as a society, and in order for a society to thrive, we need gods, and clods.

Kyle: Gods and clods?

Kyle's father: Yes. You see, I spent a lot of time going to law school, and I was able to go because I have a slightly higher intellect than others. But I still need people to pump my gas, and make my french fries, and fix my laundry machine when it breaks down.

Kyle: Oooohh, I see. Gods and clods!

Kyle's father: That's right. So Kenny's family is happy just the way they are, and we're all a functioning part of America.

Has she taken an IQ test, the SAT or ACT for a talent search, or a math contest such as the AMC 8? Her scores provide an objective indication of her intelligence and math talent, and if you think she is being too negative you could remind her of them.

I do think that you have it harder in that regard. My dd has some real processing speed issues (she's pretty average in terms of how fast she does things, deep not fast, save for reading, at which she is extremely fast). For that reason, and b/c she's been able to subject accelerate in some areas, take AP and pre-AP classes, etc., the fit is reasonable for her at this point. She also has to work if only due to the massive quantity (she had 4+ hrs of homework last year most nights, which is apparently the expected quantity for freshman with heavily loaded schedules as she had last year). We couldn't accelerate more b/c she would likely be crushed under the sheer quantity of work. There are areas, especially English, where the challenge level was still poor last year, but that's one where she's really never had a good fit save for maybe two years in her entire schooling. Yours may be more evenly gifted, though. Mine has some areas where she's somewhat regularly gifted and some where she's super gifted.

Yes on all of the above except for the AMC. She's qualified as gifted even as compared to kids in her grade and above in math on both the SAT and ACT (talent search awards, per charts like this ). It doesn't stop her from seeing it as a weak area b/c it is a weak area for her in comparison to her other strengths and b/c she knows kids who are, albeit older than her, who are more advanced than she is right now.

None the less, I'm hoping that this isn't a major issue and don't want to totally derail HowlerKarma's thread to make it about my kiddo! I mostly wanted to commiserate although she's dealing with a more accelerated kiddo than am I b/c we have some similar issues.

Yes, the issues are directly comparable, as DD also still shows up as "highly gifted" even after a three year acceleration. The workload is also the greatest challenge for her, not the level of that work.

I don't think of this as derailing in ANY way. It's a discussion about different facets and experiences with this same issue, in my estimation. It's a series of interconnected problems that are obviously not unique, or we wouldn't all have such similar experiences.


Bostonian, she tends to chalk up such experiences to 'singularity/luck' or "I was just having a good day-- EVERYONE has good days once in a while." It doesn't seem to occur to her that no, not everyone seems to have "good" days precisely timed to coincide with every standardized testing experience they ever have. Or that even under what could only be construed as extremely adverse circumstances, scoring in the 99th percentile out of grade level anyway is... er... exceptional. We've not done much of the nationally normed stuff thus far because of problems managing her (hidden, medical) disability via formal accommodations. (It took College Board nearly twelve weeks to approve her for a series of accommodations this spring, and there was no way that she *could* test without them.)


Iucounu We love South Park-- DD most of all. (Probably ought to be embarrassed by that, huh?) My DD is also a HUGE fan of The Simpsons. She is Lisa.(But shhhh... don't tell her.)
And LISA...

Young lady, in THIS house, we obey the laws of Thermodynamics... -- best quote EVER from The Simpsons. The full clip here:

It's so hard to be 13, even without the challenges she has. Do you think her disability has any issue with her inability to acknowledge her own achievements?

My dh has always been quick to dismiss or minimize his accomplishments (which is infuriating). He claims it's because he's always been really good at lots of things but not great at anything - this from a collegiate athlete who also can play nearly anything on the piano by ear AND can instantly transpose the key. I think some of his comes from having a PG older brother. His parents were careful to never compare the boys and always really emotionally supportive of his endeavors. He says he never believed his parents' praises were genuine because "they were obligated to praise me. I suspect this issue is made worse by his intense perfectionism. He measures himself to the elite in everything and falls short.

Oddly, my family was very "so what?" about talents /accomplishments. My family's favorite joke for me was, "She cheats in school." But my self esteem is miles higher than dh. Not that we're adopting this technique for our kids. No way.

No, I don't think that the disability is necessarily making her less likely to acknowledge her strengths rationally. It's more like your DH's situation. She just thinks that she's "mediocre" at something if she isn't, I don't know, ranked in the top 2 or 3 in the U.S., or something. It's truly wacky, because she still hasn't discovered her "thing" yet, either. So none of us have seen what she's actually capable of when she puts the pedal all the way to the floor cognitively, but the flickers that we've seen when she performs under strain are pretty awe-inspiring, even in the context of DH and I both being HG+ ourselves. So I suspect that someday, she will find something that she's proud of and pleased by, and that will be that. It just hasn't happened yet.

With that said, however, she certainly doesn't need "taking down a peg" by anyone.

She already beats herself up plenty, to the point that we've only just moved comfortably past perfectionism-fueled anxiety issues so serious that we were concerned for her health!

The disability issue is one that forces a very hard boundary on some kinds of physical contact, and the boyfriend is continuously trying to "negotiate" on this point, which is starting to really tick my DD off. She's well aware that both her cognitive abilities and her experience (after all, she's lived this way all her life) make her personal judgment on this subject pretty much the only expert opinion between the two of them. At 13, he really CANNOT get it the way she does, and she knows it, but is desperately trying to avoid being forced to tell him so in quite bald terms. If anything, her PG status makes her far more capable of managing on that front, even if the disability does make things trickier to begin with.

Well you can go through life with no idea what you want to go do with yourself. I've been doing that since high school.

I think I'm celebrating my 20th year of teenage angst this year!

Most people don't have my particular problem, however, so I think it's a low risk outcome.

No, because one is expressing appropriate personal boundaries, and the second is just snotty.

What about if he'd added, "... so that I may focus on creating my race of atomic supermen, to take over the world!"? Wouldn't that take the edge off?

That's pretty much where I was trying to go with it.

They have to understand that they are already obsolete.

Kind of like no one buys Apple II computers anymore. Who wants an Apple II when you can get an iPod, an iPad, an iPhone, and an iRandomOverpricedUnderpoweredConsumerGood.

I'm not sure why a gifted non-savant would ever find their "one thing."

Generally, it seems to help your life if you have some sort of primary vocation or avocation that means something to you.

Otherwise, you're like me and you just kind of wander around life feeling completely aimless and lost.

I think it's important to obtain some internal pleasure or satisfaction out of what you do, whether it's your job or a non-job interest.

JonLaw, you might like to read about Barbara Sher's scanner concept. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...524712-8792631?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

When you take your enjoyment from the act of learning and exploring curiousity, it is a bit of its own ends and means. Skill accumulation is a wonderful hobby/way of life and glimmers of cross-over knowledge and interconnectedness have additional rewards. Good times, good times.

Yes, I enjoy cross-over knowledge and interconnectedness.

After all, who doesn't want to play the Glass Bead Game?

"The Glass Bead Game takes place at an unspecified date, centuries into the future. Hesse suggested that he imagined the book's narrator writing around the start of the 25th century.[2] The setting is a fictional province of central Europe called Castalia, reserved by political decision for the life of the mind; technology and economic life are kept to a strict minimum. Castalia is home to an austere order of intellectuals with a twofold mission: to run boarding schools for boys, and to nurture and play the Glass Bead Game, whose exact nature remains elusive and whose devotees occupy a special school within Castalia known as Waldzell. The rules of the game are only alluded to, and are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Playing the game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. Essentially the game is an abstract synthesis of all arts and sciences. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass_Bead_Game

However, as noted by a commenter to the book you referenced on the Amazon site...

"Finally, some examples seem unrealistic and even dangerous for some career changers. For example, on page 136, Sher describes "Huey," who chose to become a secretary to gain time for reading nineteenth century novels.

"Huey" claims he has 3.5 hours every evening, plus 12 hours weekends and holidays, to fulfill his literary passions. Clearly, Huey isn't married, and for sure he doesn't have children, dogs or a health club membership.

My question: What happens to Huey when he turns thirty, forty or fifty? I'm reminded of Tama Kieves, who wrote This Time I Dance. Kieves, a disgruntled lawyer, took a waitress job "serving curly fries" to her former colleagues. These jobs are fine when you're young -- but as you reach forty and fifty, with no other options, they stop being a Good Enough Job, let alone a lark, and start feeling like a trap."

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/15...524712-8792631?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

Hi I hope you don't mind me jumping in as I"m new to this forum. My 6 year old just recently tested gifted and he's currently in the 2nd grade. When I "vent" to my friends or co-workers because I feel as though he is being treated unfairly at school (he's always in "trouble" for acting up when really he's incredibly bored and emotionally intense) I get told by them that either all kids are gifted so my child is not smarter than them, he probably has issues and should be evaluated as "THEIR" kid would never act like that in class or I'm not doing enough as a parent to discipline him so he doesn't act up in class. I totally relate. I literally at this time have nobody but my husband and my parents (all 4 of us kids excelled in something or were labeled gifted so they've been through it). So I just wanted to say I completely empathize with you on this.

Only if he weren't serious. Some folks, hard to tell.

My point, though, is that kids who stand out (for good or ill) can have targets painted on their backs. Sometimes the most willing archers are adults who should (in theoory at least) know better. As parents, it's important to help our kids develop their own social boundaries so that they feel confident not engaging with people who are just using them to make a point.

The "acts up because he's bored" thing is a hot issue, and one I have a hard time discussing with my kids' classmates' parents, gifted or otherwise. The biggest problem I've seen with it is that there are some folks (not including present company, but thinking of people we've encountered over the years) who think that recognizing the problem is all there is to it, and that it's not their responsibility as a parent to ameliorate it. Ultimately, nobody outside of the parent and teacher cares why little Thor is being obnoxious (be it giftedness, ADHD, or both). They just want him to quit. So if the school cannot or will not challenge Thor to a perfect level of engagement, it's up to us to teach him coping skills. Which we should be doing anyway, because as an adult he's going to have plenty of opportunities to use them. And as soon as you say "Thor's bored in class" chances are your audience makes the leap to assume you're That Parent, and immediately crosses Thor off the birthday invitation list.

Of course, you can teach Thor coping skills, like drawing on blank paper when he's bored, which should bother no one...and have his teacher still throw a blue hissyfit because he's not gazing at the teacher with rapt attention while he goes over the product of twice nine for the eighth time. In which case Thor gets another lesson, which is How To Deal With Unreasonable People.

Which, when you get right down to it, is also an important lesson for any Thor or Hera.

Not like those coping skills will ever go long without use. LOL.

One thing that has helped my DD to tolerate boredom with a more-- er, 'sanguine' outlook is to point out to her that if she is obnoxious, it hurts others who DO need to be paying attention and learning what she already knows. Compassion is the best coping skill for her; she chooses activities which are non-disruptive in order to be kind to others.

That works with DD because she's actually Deanna Troi in disguise, though. Might not work with other kids, but I figured I throw it out there for anyone with a super-empathetic child.

Perhaps the sad part of all of this, despite the social / emotional problems we're all discussing is that most schools still see a TAG program only as the need to challenge kids academically and do little or nothing as far as counseling.

There's nothing quite like entering adulthood intellectually overpowered while remaining an emotionally immature social-emotional fiasco.

Hear, hear!!

Honestly, given the one-size-fits-nobody approach our district has taken to gifted academics, I'd just as soon they leave counseling the heck alone.

Not sure how far outside of academics I really want the school to wander, reading through DS6's Student/Parent handbook last night I already feel like I've fallen into a Pink Floyd song.

You know, I've really learned it depends on the system you're in. I've seen numerous schools where unfortunately the administration makes the decisions, scheduling, program and curriculum choices for the TAG program and has their normal counseling staff work with the GT kids. Few if any of the administration has any background in TAG education or counseling.....all while having multiple fully certified TAG specialists on staff and who would better understand, direct, and counsel those TAG children.

On the other hand, I've also seen schools with administration who are wise enough to surround themselves with great TAG specialists and let them do what they were trained to do, what they know, and what they do well and simply provide backing.

All too often with administration, it's a case of them not knowing what they don't know but feeling they know best.

Oh, heck YEAH.

As with most large scale organizations, seldom is the whole system sound, you can, however, often find INDIVIDUALS within the system who make a huge difference for your child. I've yet to see what I'd call a great public school as far as TAG education, I have, however, seen numerous outstanding individuals both highly knowledgeable and passionate about GT education at numerous public schools who have made a world of positive impact for our family.

Sure. We've had a whole range of teachers/guidance counselors/classroom aides/what have you, from the magnificent to the downright horrible. I'd still rather they not get into counseling, and let the good ones do what they do best, and the lousy ones do (relatively) no harm.

You could make the argument, I suppose, that it matters whether you're in a 2000-child district or a 150,000-child one. You certainly see more bureaucratic bungling in a bigger one, but I think the effect could be just as devastating on a micro level if you got a lunatic doing the job in a small one.

This fits more with the earlier posts in this thread.
Even though we're not leaving elementary we're just now joining it.
My husband said, "our son can read already", at meet the teacher yesterday.  I said, "I think he reads at a second grade level.  I would have told you privately after the meeting". The teacher said, "just tell me if he knows the sight words I send home and I'll give him the next sheet".  

Then we met a friend in the parking lot outside and my husband said, "I don't know why you were embarrassed".  Our friend said, "Some parents will talk about you and say your son's just smart because you worked with him, but don't be embarrassed about your son.  You should be proud of your son.  He's doing good". 

My sister runs a home preschool and she tells everybody her son can read, partially because he's smart, but also because she works with him.  She said some parents take that the wrong way, like she's saying their kid's not smart, but all she's saying is that she does work with the kids a little each day while they're there. 

I think mothers act differently than guys, more competition.  My husband says he tells the guys at work I'm introducing division to our kid, and all the guys are impressed.  All most all the guys brag about their kids, he says.  Also, if I say anything, I only say what he can do consistently, not what he's done a few times or is starting to learn.  

There you go; by trying to be socially appropriate I've been told twice that looks more like I'm embarrassed of my son.  Once from another housewife who admitted that some other parents will say he's just smart because I've worked with him.   She still said by hesitating to talk about it I'm acting like I'm ashamed of my son.  

I'm starting to see the whole "but you work with him/her" thing as a tool to use to deflect other parents' resentment of giftedness.

They want to think that? Fine by me. I no longer care (sometimes ). I have the added "benefit" of having a kid (DS8) with issues who I actually need to work with (fine motor practice, curriculum review because of attention difficulties, etc), so they tend to think "oh she has to help him"

I heard it A LOT with DD9 when she was little.. "but you work with her" (um... not really... it's kind of the other way around) ...and "hey can you teach my (3 year old) to read too?" (um... not really... I'd love to take the credit, but...)

A huge hot button phrase for me is: "I just let my kids be kids"

(insert profanity from me here)

Anyway.

Why I think the ultimate superpower might be to ACTUALLY shoot darts from one's eyes....:)

LOL

I've found that most people actually believe that my kid is really smart but then immediately start explaining why their kid is a good fit where they are, like they need to defend why their kid hasn't skipped a grade or something. Generally just makes the conversation turn awkward and just about as annoying as when I am accused of making it up or pushing work on him. I dont care too much about people's opinions of me as a parent but I do feel a little bad when people feel like bad parents because their kid is the oldest in the grade and mine skipped even if that is a really silly thing to think. I can't help it that this is my kid's strength. He's certainly not an athlete and I don't ever feel bad about that at all even though I live in a city where sports are huge.

Btw I have found this thread very amusing =]. I could think of a few superpowers that would be useful in parenting a gifted kid lol.

A Doctor X mind-control power would be quite useful, I think. I'd use it to purge all that "we don't do grade skipping even though we have a district policy that says we do" nonsense right out of the room.

That was exactly what I was thinking!! =}

Just to update...

DD 'broke up with' the boy in question.

She just found his immaturity and... well, his lack of "breadth" relative to her and her other friends-- too much to compensate for over time. In other words, once the initial physical appeal ("He's so CUUUTE!") wore off, there was no there there.

He was incredibly insecure and needy, which she found annoying and immature. He was also constantly 'on her' about seeking reassurance that she thought he was "smart enough" in general, and also trying to spend less time with her other friends and more time one-on-one (which we obviously didn't think was very appropriate for a pair of 13yo children to begin with). The latter habit was very definitely due to his dislike of "sharing" DD with her friends, and his fear that he is noticeably out of the intellectual league that the rest of them are playing in.

Throughout the past month she has been;

a) gracious and kind,

b) resolved to stick to her principles re: healthy relationship dynamics and boundaries (which the boy attempted to circumvent in several different ways, I might add-- and this was probably his fatal miscalculation with DD)

c) compassionate even in her break with him-- genuinely extending "friendship" and truly explaining that her reasons really are about HER and not that there is anything wrong with HIM. She explained that she simply does NOT have the time for the kind of relationship that he is seeking, and that her school year looks radically different than his does by virtue of their different placements (him: 8th grade, her: 11th grade). She also expressed the sentiment that she isn't really seeking "that kind" of relationship with ANYONE at this point in time.

He sulked for a couple of days-- but there seem to be signs that he may be willing and mature enough to remain friends. This could have something to do with the hard physical boundaries that DD never budged on, which would have made this very, very awkward otherwise.

We're very proud of how DD has conducted herself. We're also proud of how well she communicated with us throughout (particularly when she wasn't sure what to do/say in response to something odd/outrageous/objectionable), and acted thoughtfully and in accord with her own needs and beliefs. In some ways, this is completely typical DD-- incredibly mature socially.

She didn't want to tell him via text, but eventually decided that it was kinder to do it SOONER rather than waiting to do it in person, and that an unpleasant 'scene' with him was less likely to be face-saving for him and therefore more likely to deprive him of the ability to remain friends platonically. (This boy is definitely not socially adroit and has few friends; DD intends to remain one of them.)


I am also happy that she took NO pleasure in being idolized, and even less in being manipulated or "possessed" by another person, and yet still deeply dreaded hurting another person with her own actions. She wasn't being reactionary in any way. She is growing to be a lovely young woman.

On the personal Mommy-grizzly side of things, here, after DD announced this to us and showed us her the conversation on her phone...

I couldn't help thinking to myself;

Yeah? How "typical" does my 13yo seem to you NOW? HUH?

I've not seen a more gracious break-up-- EVER-- coming from a teen, and seldom even from adults. This was a boy who was basically behaving with stalkerish intensity, and DD seems to have skilfully disentangled herself without too much trauma to either one of them. Yeah. "Typical" my Aunt Fanny.

Yes, I realize that this is a rather unsavory sort of thought. I'm not proud. But there was that little inner victory lap in my own black heart. LOL.

Pics or it didn't happen.

You may want to make sure that there aren't any signs of a major jealousy reactions on the part of the 8th grade boy.

I definitely remember engaging in property damaging behavior (fortunately for me, it was minor damage) in 8th grade due to extreme jealousy, however it was directed at the boy the girl was dating instead of me, rather than the girl.

I was pretty much jealous/angry for the better part of a school year, IIRC.

Ah, middle school. Such memories...

Oy, that is definitely a worry, yes.

Bigger worry? If he went all Fatal Attraction with DD, she's incredibly vulnerable physically. It would be horrifyingly simple and he could go entirely undetected. I think that isn't likely. I hope, anyway.

While I've not posted publically here about my DD's disabling condition,(I am not reluctant to share, just reluctant to post, so the insatiably curious can PM me to ask)-- it makes placing her safety into the hands of a potentially petulant/angry/vengeful 13yo boy downright heartstopping from our perspective. Property damage is actually pretty acceptable by comparison.

This was part of the problem anyway-- DD was savvy enough to KNOW that she couldn't trust him that much. Not because he didn't care enough-- but because he wasn't experienced enough or, frankly, cognitively able-- to learn to manage what it's taken us (and her) a decade to learn imperfectly and with near-fatal mistakes along the way. There was no way that she was trusting him to lock lips with her, and he was very definitely not getting the picture.


So yes, critical that she conduct herself in such a way as to minimize any possible hard feelings. She didn't treat him gently out of a sense of self-preservation, though; it just genuinely pains her to cause distress to others. She really is that nice.

Eldest DS simply didn't date all through public school. He said that he hadn't found any HS ladies that interested him because there was a lack of maturity combined with intelectual attraction. He's now making up for it as a Freshman in college it would seem, at a college where the female to male ratio is 60/40 and older more mature women are many.

Well, that's certainly good for college men.

Not quite so good for college women...