Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional 2e or not 2e, that is the question

Sorry, I couldn't resist :-)

My DS, age 9, is a DYS. He has a strong profile in VCI, PRI and WMI, but very low processing speed, giving him a GAI of 148 and an FSIQ of 142. His achievement scores from the WIAT a few years ago, and ongoing achievement at school for NWEA MAP- all tend to be in the 98-99.9th percentile, across the board. Except writing.

Writing has always been the problem and we recently had him evaluated for dysgraphia because it was nagging me that something wasn't quite right. And this is our current conundrum- so I'm trying to piece it together and I'd love some feedback and help.

Ed.psych says not dysgraphia because he is not significantly and substantially impacted academically, when doing grade level work. However, his coding score has dropped from a 9 to a 6, leaving a PSI of 97. In comparison to working memory (141 but two years ago), that is a huge discrepancy.

She noted that he is low average on any fine motor test and below average on the visual motor integration tests (an 82 on the VMI test). According to her report, he is left eye dominant but right handed. After all the evals, she said "not right now" but maybe later.

This all feels so frustrating. I have a 9 year old 5th grader, taking two online classes that are several years accelerated and he's rocking both of them. Ask him to write a timed paragraph and you will get something that resembles a 2nd grader, with low vocab, shortened sentences and serious writing avoidance.

So... what now? We are currently homeschooling but the plan has been for him to return to school next year. I know for certain that he will suffer in any class that has required, graded notes, even if it's on grade level- ignoring that it wouldn't meet the academic needs that he has.

He sounds just like my friend's son, now 10. He's 2e - HG with Written Output Disorder (as well as CDC).

My DS8 has written output problems too, and a language processing disorder. At school he has an IEP which accounts for this and allows for him to do less written work. He had the IEP before his formal diagnosis, so you may be able to get similar accommodations for your son if you don't have a diagnosis before he returns to public school. It would depend on the school and on the team, I guess.

Good luck

How did you manage to get an IEP without a diagnosis? For something else? The school wouldn't even agree to test him, let alone consider an IEP. The basic answer was "You're kidding, right? You realize he's already grade skipped plus subject accelerated and getting A's."

I'm petrified for him for any AP exam, SAT or any school timed test at this point. Couple his intense gifted perfectionism with his fear of failure and his writing problems and I can't imagine this is going to go well.

Sounds like you're going to need to get some private testing to get the diagnosis to get the IEP.

Either that or get a lawyer to write a letter to the school encouraging them to shell out for the testing.

Our experience has been quite similar to yours. Although we have never been able to get an official diagnosis other than "other physical disability" for our DD13, we now have a 504 in place due to her VMI of 6th percentile. (She is a straight A student in accelerated classes.) What helped for us was having our district OT come to her determination meeting and say "If this child were an EC child, I would be serving her immediately." We also advocated on the basis of her needing accommodations officially in place for when she takes AP English and other AP courses in the future, as well as for the writing portion of the SAT.

Best of luck in advocating for your child as he returns to public school.

Unfortunately, this was private testing :-( She is a very experienced gifted tester, but maybe not so much on the 2e end. She said she's never seen a profile like my DS's and was really confused by him.

And we got a few recommendations of what to do next- but they're all stuff we're already doing. He already has daily handwriting instruction (much to his complaint), daily typing instruction and modified assignments where writing isn't necessary.

Revmom- That is exactly it- the long term accommodations need to be in place pretty soon or they won't really be honored.

CAMom, is the ed. psych. saying that she can't give your ds a *diagnosis* because he's achieving at grade level, or is she saying that your ds won't qualify for accommodations at school?

I'm on my way out the door and don't have time to reply at the moment - but fwiw I have a 2e ds12 (7th grade) who is dysgraphic as well as has an expressive language disorder which impacts written expression and an IEP. If the ed psych is saying that your ds needs to be below grade level in achievement to be diagnosed with dysgraphia, she's incorrect - the diagnosis is not related to academic achievement, it's related to a neurological inability to develop automaticity of handwriting - which *in turn* impacts a student's ability to use handwriting to fully show their knowledge (which may also be very well ahead of grade level). If the ed psych is saying that your ds needs to be below grade level in achievement to qualify for IEP services or 504 accommodations, that's also incorrect.

I could go into more detail, but I've got to get out the door for now... and it would help to know which way to interpret the ed psych's comments before I start rambling on ad nauseum about dysgraphia/disorder of written expression and expressive language disorders - so let me know and II'll give you some ideas re your next steps.

Best wishes,

polarbear

ps - is your ds getting all that daily instruction (writing, typing etc) during the school day? Or are you after-schooling those things? Or did you say you were homeschooling - I'm sorry, I already forgot! Do you think he's getting enough time per day on intellectually challenging work, not just the frustrating things that he is challenged by? If the time balance is weighted heavily toward writing/typing/etc I would think about pulling back a bit on the handwriting instruction, and moving the typing "practice" to typing his regular schoolwork but not drills and then add in study in something he's really good at and enjoys. With kids who are dysgraphic, trying to do too much re handwriting remediation can backfire, with kids who are 2e, giving them a bit of intellectual stimulation can go a long way to get past the frustrations of dealing with a disability, and back to kids with dysgraphia, depending on the cause, typing might not be much easier than handwriting, just different. It *will* go faster than writing by hand, but he might not turn into a rapid-fire typist. Last thought before I really have to go - if he's trying to learn touch typing and not making much progress, let him make up his own system.

Thank you so much Polar Bear! So much good stuff in there.

Yes, the psych is saying both that he doesn't quite qualify (she said if he had scored 1 pt lower, she would qualify him based on visual motor integration, mixed dominance and weak, shaky motor control of hands but didn't write it in the report.) and that he isn't below grade level anyway so it doesn't matter.

From the report:

Beery Developmental test of Motor Integration:
___achieved a standard score of 82 , which is just below the average range for his chronological age. Overall motor output was shaky and occasionally inaccuracies were made in the details of designs. Poor planning and overall organization difficulties were noted.


Developmental Test of Motor Coordination
This test requires the student to copy sets of designs within a designated space. Fine motor control is measured while the student is allowed five minutes to complete all 30 designs.___was able to complete all 30 designs within the five minute period. He scored a standard score of 81, which placed him in the below average range for his age. His ability to stabilize his motor control was inconsistent, resulting in several errors outside of the designed parameters.


A bunch of other tests in the average or low average range, including several in the 30th percentile.

Followed by:


At this time, ___s writing skills do not fall substantially below those similarly aged peers. It also does not appear to significantly interfere with his achievement or written expression at this time.

Poor handwriting alone is not enough to diagnose impairment in written expression. It appears that ___s fine motor control is not well developed enough to exhibit good motor control and speed when given paper to pencil tasks. However, he appears able to compensate for this weakness when given a computer to type out the information or given additional time. His overall motor coordination is within the expected realm for his chronological age both in motor coordination, finger dexterity and strength.


As for homeschooling, we spend about 30 min a day on typing and handwriting stuff. I will say that his typing has gotten significantly better now that he is playing Minecraft :-) The rest of our daily work is definitely at his level academically and is sufficiently challenging. I make modifications like- I copy the math problems from the book (AoPS) to the paper, then he works on the paper. He does a lot of math work on a whiteboard or online as well. I try to sneak in fine motor stuff that is fun, like learning to knot friendship bracelets, tie fishing knots or make fuse bead stuff for friends.

CAmom
I posted on my thread about spacing issues in writing about my DYS DS 6. He has an IEP for writing, he gets OT for that. But it seemed from the VMI that there was something else so were referred to an eye teaching hospital and we did an extensve round of vision testing and will be going back for an additional test. His handwriting is definitely affected by tone and other things the OT will help with but I am more and more convinced that it's a vision thing. But it's so easily missed because his reading ability is so over the top. I think the VMI is a good first step, my DS had it twice, but it wasn't nearly as diagnostic as what the vision people did. And the rankings against peers seemed more detailed. So you might want to try that because the report coupled with the rest of the neuro psych might help. Although we are in the middle of this like you are so take it with a grain of salt. and we did get extended time and stuff even though he technically doesn't need it now.

DeHe

He sounds 2E to me. What about a 504 for the writing (extra time & typing) even if you can't convince the school to offer the IEP? Actually, handwriting isn't the big concern; the quality of the writing is the issue (low vocabulary, short sentences, avoidance).