Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Is Algebra Necessary?

I mostly just lurk on this board looking for good information, but felt that I must make a comment here or bust in frustration :-)

I think some of the comments regarding math and whether or not a child should go to college if they can't do algebra have been a bit elitist.

I have a master's and my husband is working on a PhD and is a senior administrator at a small local LAC and neither of us were very strong in math. I would have given up years ago if someone had told me I didn't belong in college because I wasn't good at math. And by not very good I mean I started in basic college algebra and almost failed.

I think one thing that is being overlooked a great deal of the time on boards such as this one is the fact that not all gifted children are gifted in every area. And I'm not talking about the my child is a gifted athlete or my child is gifted in interpersonal skills (I did have classes on Howard Gardner's theories in graduate school.) But, that some children are gifted verbally and some children are gifted mathematically.

I have a daughter who in years past I would have said was generally gifted in both areas. She just turned 15 and until she hit algebra she was/is gifted in both areas. But as years have passed and she has grown, she is much more gifted verbally. I do not have an IQ score on her but with subtests and SAT's from when she was 11 and her recent ACT score and other evaluations over the years she would probably hit in the HG to low PG range. Never applied to Davidson, (did Duke Tip instead) but I could take her current scores and she would qualify as a Davidson scholar. But math is not her thing. She started taking classes at our state flagship university at 14, but not in math or science subjects. I would hate for someone to tell my child who is off the charts on the verbal side that she is not college material because she struggles in math.

Now, she can do it and will pass with more than a C, but it is not easy, we have had to slow down, we have had to back up and review and this is a child who has never had to review anything. We do not do repetition. She usually is a tell me once I've got it kind of person. Now part of it is that she doesn't like math and in her teenage state of mind sees no need for it in her future career as a writer. If she applied herself more she would probably do even better, but math does not come easy as it did when she was younger and it's not because she didn't learn the basics well.

There is another thread talking about written expression disorder. Should we not send those kids to college? Never mind they may excel at math, they may struggle to write their college papers.

I try to be careful of saying that "I don't understand what's so hard about writing a research paper, my child could write them in 2nd grade", and I think others should be careful to not say "what's so hard about Algebra my child could do it in 2nd grade". I have tried to teach my children that everyone learns at different rates and in different ways from the time she was 3 and 4 and reading chapter books when her friends barely knew the alphabet.

I'm not saying water down the curriculum or that basic Algebra skills are not necessary for higher education, they are. But does my daughter need Pre-Calculus and Calculus, maybe not? I just think we have to be careful of judging who's college material and who is not based solely on Algebra skills. And I did not fully blossom in education until I hit college and had some professors who believed in me and told me I could do it, and I did. I wondered why I had wasted my high school years, but I'm glad others did not give up on me before I even started.

So, just my little vent. Sorry so long.

Thanks for that RJED. Great explanation!

Thank you, RJED, for putting into words so eloquently what I've been struggling to say since this thread began. I am the parent of a verbally gifted daughter (2 actually, but the youngest is too young to start calling "gifted" yet) who really dislikes math. Her processing for basic arithmetic is pretty slow. While she reads on a 6th grade level, having just turned 7 years old, her math is pretty much on-level or just slightly above in a testing situation. The idea that she isn't gifted, or even further, isn't college material, because she struggles with math, is offensive.

To be honest, I see this a lot on the internet discussions of giftedness. There is a lot of information and support for parents of children who are mathematically gifted, and there are classes, camps, scholarships, and all for the students, but verbal giftedness seems to be a sideline--Oh, if they're reading early, then obviously all you need to do is give them more books. It's almost as if, for many, gifted = gifted-with-math.

On the one hand, I wouldn't want kids who could otherwise successfully attend and graduate from college not do that simply due to algebra. On the other hand, I can't help but think that this is yet another example of the dumbing down of our educational system.
After Algebra I comes Geometry, Algebra II, and Calculus. It doesn't seem too much to ask in 4 years of high school to have kids take Algebra I. Kids in most other countries do that and more. My son in his G/T class will take Algebra I in 7th grade.
There are lots of kids who are gifted verbally and not in math. Still, I personally think everyone, gifted or not, really should try to make it through Algebra I.

The dumbing down of our educational system is a major topic for me, being a public high school teacher. On the one hand (since we're using hands, LOL), I do worry about the dumbing down, as you said, and see it in my own subject area (English). On the other hand, as previous posters have mentioned, we're educating children at a higher level than ever before, where children who wouldn't have been to high school before are now required to attend, at least until age 16.

I consider the abstract thought required for Algebra, and wonder if that's the problem with forcing all students to take it in 8th or 9th grade. I teach 9th graders: I can tell you that a lot of them are still thinking very concretely. Perhaps the outcome would be better if they could take Algebra as an upperclassman? The problem, programmatically speaking, is that states require multiple years of math for graduation, and the math classes run sequentially. So, a student waiting until junior year to take Algebra 1 will not have enough time to complete the requirements and graduate on time.

I do agree with you- I hope that I didn't sound snarky saying, everyone should take Algebra. I see lots and lots of kids who just aren't "mathy" kids, when I've volunteered in my kids' classes, and they should still be able to go to college.
But it is a slippery slope.
Look at what, I'm sure, you see, with your English classes you teach. Probably often not as much writing, or the spelling is sloppy, or the grammar is poor- and you just go with it because all of the kids just about write like that.
It's like our state standards here in California, with our yearly STAR test. At the end of second grade, they tested things like- how to tell time. Lots and lots of kids didn't know that! I don't even think that is a gifted thing- I think that we just keep lowering the bar so everyone can pass and feel good instead of saying, let's set the bar higher and everyone tries harder.

My daughter is going into 10th grade this year. Unfortunately, setting the bar higher for everyone dumbs down the individual course. I get very tired of this since she needs to go through Calculus.

She is a very gifted math student - and really all around.

Maybe this is the problem, in that we're requiring too many units of math for graduation. For the non-college bound, it appears to me to involve too much needless repetition. When I was in HS I was that "ambassador" type who could move among social groups at will, and I had a number of friends who were, shall we say, less than diligent in their studies. I had a few conversations with individuals about their math difficulties, and they let me flip open their books, at which time I discovered that HS students were still working on decimals, fractions, and other skills I'd mastered in elementary school, in a class they required for graduation.

Unless the goal is to teach a child to hate math, what is the point?

I could see making Algebra I a graduation requirement, then making individual decisions for students on what it would take to get them to that level. If they need remedial math, fine. If not, I think they'd be better served taking the class when they're ready, getting it out of the way, and then making a decision about whether to pursue math further, or just take extra electives.

RJED...thanks for your excellent points.

I won't diatribe about my concerns with the expectation that EVERYONE needs a 4-year degree in order to be gainfully employed. But, I thought I would discuss the disconnect between higher math and our culture's incompetence at living out basic math principles (ie: if you pay for your $500 ipad with a credit card charging 22% interest AND you only pay the minimum fee each month...). Of course this sort of responsibilty starts in the home, but I think every high-schooler would benefit from life-math education. I have seen far too many young adults of late with ENORMOUS college debt and the skills to repay none of it. Maybe the students are offered this practical instruction...but I see little evidence if it.

A high school graduate should be able solve problems involving decimals and fractions. If they were having difficulties, as you state, the point was to bring them up to a certain level.