Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion DD6 and lecturing /correcting / performing

Hi,

My DD6 has a propensity to lecture, correct, and perform in social situations in a way that is sometimes uncomfortable for me because I worry about her social life. On the surface, she seems very social and her K teacher wrote that she was "well liked by students and teachers." Yet, as I watch her launching into lecture mode, I sometimes feel uneasy. Yesterday, her grandparents came over and she had found a beetle and wanted everyone to sit around and listen as she lectured about beetles etc. This is common and I have seen her in teaching and correcting mode with her friends in a way that also makes me a little uncomfortable. We had an evaluation in the past and the examiner focused on giftedness while admitting she has plenty of ADHD symptoms. She was an expert in ASD, and said that she did not think there were any signs of ASD, but then again, she only met with her one on one. She has some sensory issues that seem better after OT though she is still highly excitable and even shakes her hands when excited. She is always smiling and is very creative with a great imagination and a quick sense of humor with a love of sarcasm. So far, kids seem to really like her, but I see her making social blunders that her younger sister would never make. Most people just see a very outgoing confident kid. Maybe I am just looking at things under a microscope for no reason. I am just wondering if typical gifted kids (esp. talkative highly extroverted ones who love the spotlight) do this sort of thing. We are thinking of having her enroll in a theater / singing class or camp because she actually has talent in this area and seems very comfortable on stage. At home, she wants almost constant conversation with me, if you can call it conversation. She wants me to listen and watch what I consider lectures or shows all the time. I have an introverted streak and find this highly draining. Once she has more to do outside of the home I think that things will be easier, I am just trying to get a feel if typical kids do this and if we should continue to ride it out or run it all by an expert again. I just don't know other kids anything like her LOL

I have the same dd6. Seems over the top to me a lot of the time with her attitude, out going nature, desire to perform. I correct her when she is being rude. I am pretty introverted so her desire to have play dates every day, talk non stop, jump on the coffee table and dance, and so on, does tend to be draining!
She likes ballet because she gets a chance to do real live performances from time to time, but it hasn't slowed her down.
I think she likes the challenge of the ballet dancing as well, but I am not sure she'd stick with it if not for the goal of a performance every 6 or 8 months...

Mine (far from typical, 2E/AS) definitely is the lecturer type. He tells people stuff, whether they are interested or no. Sharing interesting facts is one of the major modes of social contact that come naturally to him. He believes these facts (often obscure scientific ones) are of intrinsic interest to everybody.

My list of things to watch would be:
--does she have lots of other modes of approach to peers available, and does she use them all easily? Or is lecturing her main skill for approaching and talking to peers?

--does she listen to others as well as she lectures? What if someone else her age has a great idea?

--what happens when she is not in charge? Does she follow, or does she leave?

--can she engage in reciprocal conversational turn-taking with a peer-- turn-taking? How many turns?


You do NOT have to acquiesce to this all the time. You can say that "showtime starts at 6:30 pm, when the dishes are done, and I will listen to shows for 15 minutes" (or however long.) Please save up today's lectures and give me your best material then." She does need to learn that some people do not like being lectured to, and nobody can tolerate an infinite amount of it. That is not an unkind lesson, even from mom.

DeeDee

It's so hard to get a real picture of things at only 6. It sounds like you are really attuned to your DD which means she has a great model of excellent "social IQ". I see that gifted kids (like kids with ADHD and ASD) are often so lost in themselves that they miss social cues (even obvious ones like eye-rolling when they diatribe). Kids at 6 are egocentric anyway, hence why they often spend an entire playdate agreeing on a game instead of PLAYING the game. Also, there is no hard line between ASD, ASD traits, and eccentric. Old men with beards make diagnostic guidelines that cannot pinpoint the subtleties of each specific child.

thanks for your insight, DeeDee. I have gone round and round on here in the past and appreciate people giving me another opportunity to air my concerns.

She does approach peers in other ways and can engage in imaginary play with them, BUT she would prefer if they just listen to her stories. I have to tell her to let her younger sister add her ideas to the story etc.

She has a very hard time following another child, but she was obsessed with another child in K and would follow her lead from time to time. I do see her bend a little to others suggestions, but it isn't her natural mode.

We do not feel that she listens that well, but are not sure if there is an issue of defiance, inattention or something else. Example: say she did something wrong and we are talking to her about it. What often happens is that she does not acknowledge that you said anything and then launches into her needs. Her 4 year old sister does not do this--things seem to get under her skin.

I'll keep an eye out for reciprocal conversation with a friend. She is HIGHLY VERBAL and her voice tends to dominate many situations.

My DD also reads a lot of nonfiction, mostly science, and seems to think everyone is going to be thrilled hearing about facts. I actually keep hoping she meets a friend who does like those things. She is friends with some sweet socially adept girls who are not gifted and while I think they are good for her in some ways, perhaps she just naturally takes over. These more flexible, kind girls really like her and I think they often tolerate a lot from her even though she can be a lot of fun.

Oh, she also can be obsessive and has rotating interests that she will focus on until I can't stand the sight or sound of whatever it is. She can sometimes "sell" these to her friends though since these are usually characters from stories or animals.

...sorry had to break up post.

As a psychotherapist working with kids, I try to break down the complexity of social rules and communication in whet seems like a blatantly obvious way to those who don't struggle. For example, discussing that one always apologizes for an accident (bump in line, knocking a pencil off someone's desk) despite the fact the act wasn't intentional. You can make it more fun by giving her stickers or pennies or tickets when she picks up on social cues or appropriately follows a social rule despiteher contrary inclination. Some kids need algebra explained step by step...others need body language tutorials.

thanks for your input, Evemomma. I actually do spell things out in detail and have even drawn pictures explaining social and behavior things, but the next time she is in that situation, it seems she forgets. I often get an uncomfortable feeling in social situations with her that I don't feel with her younger sister. She does remember please, thank you, and excuse me though. I guess I have to remind myself that some things have gotten better eventually even though it took one hundred repetitions to get something that came naturally to her sibling.

We do use charts but I am certainly open to doing more rewarding (verbal and otherwise) for socially smart moments.

Your dd sounds a lot like a boy in my dd's class. 9 years old and loves to talk about all the things he knows, especially science. Unfortunately, this year he was labeled a "know-it-all" and at one point targeted by a group of girls who made fun of him. My dd stood up for him and we purposely invited him over for some playdates, which (I hope!) helped to make him less of a target. DD9 really likes this boy, and they have a shared interested in science. The guidance counselor at school was also a big help, not only in working with this boy but in working with the girls and helping them understand that people behave differently in social situations. Does your dd's school have a guidance program?

I think you are right on target having your dd maintain friendships with some socially savvier kids. Aside from that, how about role playing? Could you play your dd and show her how she is behaving and the way others are reacting? Sometimes that works for us. Explaining things doesn't seem to sink in with my kids as much as demonstrating their behavior.

Evemomma, what a strange formulation. Beards? Really?

I would not say that diagnostic guidelines are perfect, or always clear, or always applicable; but neither would I discount them as worthless, and your description of bias in them has much to answer for.

DeeDee

DeeDee...no offence meant whatsoever. I'm a mental health professional (licensed clinical counselor/art therapist), and that was my favorite professor's (clinical psychologist, taught abnormal psych) way of reminding us that diagnosis is art and science combined. It was not meant as a dig against psychology or anti -female. It was our colloquial reminder that people are people first, and that whatever system we apply diagnosticslly will be imperfect. Hence the changes in the upcoming DSM5 that changes specifics like age of symptomatic onset for ADHD, completely revises the previous Axis II personality disorder categories. Asperger's disorder only made its debut in 1994 in the DSM IV. The field of psychology is in a constant flux of what
characterizes a diagnosis versus a normal variant of the human condition.

Is a lot of the issue that she doesn't adjust her vocabulary and syntax to suit the occasion? My DS-now-8 had on a couple of school reports things like "At times, it can sound as though [DS] is reciting a passage from a textbook". He would get carried away and not notice when people weren't interested (though if they were interested and joined in, I think he was always just as happy to listen as talk). That was a problem that we and school worked on.

However, I think part of it was just a consequence of advanced language skills. If your language is age-typical, it doesn't often matter if you don't learn to adjust your language to the occasion, because your natural speech mode is what your peers expect. If your language is advanced for your age, it does often matter, because you have to learn to speak in a way that will be understood by your age peers. We talked about it, but I felt this was an instance of his being asked to learn a skill that most children his age don't have, not an instance of his lacking age-typical skills.

In both aspects he's a lot better now. He will still talk about Minecraft to me even though I have zero interest, sometimes to the point that I impose "no more Minecraft talk today". I completely agree that it's appropriate for you and other people to place limits.

My son was a lot like your daughter. He doesn't have ADHD or ASD but was very high energy when he was younger, especially when excited. His sensory issues caused a need to shake his hands "to get some of the excess energy out."

He loved learning, especially science, and at six he didn't realize that it was rude to correct adults. He didn't think it was fair that it was perfectly acceptable for adults to correct kids but not for kids to correct adults when they were obviously wrong. After he finished kindergarten at a public school we homeschooled, more like unschooled, and I encouraged him to tell me if I said something that he thought was wrong and we would check it out together. He was usually right. Maybe this wasn't a good thing for my son socially at the time but I was not really worried about that.

I think he knew that not everyone else was as excited about learning things as he was but it was almost like he thought if he shared these interesting things with other people he could change their minds because how could anyone not think science was amazing.

My son loved to perform so we put him in musical theater at age 4. He loved it and it was a very good outlet for his energy and creativity. The older kids liked him for his sarcastic, quick-witted humor. He got to be with other gifted kids who didn't fit in but not all of them were gifted. I overheard a girl in his class tell her friend that he was speaking in "some geeky language she didn't understand." His friends understood and that was all that mattered.

His social ability improved over the years. His very social sister says he does not have any problems with social skills--at least with young adults. He doesn't share what he finds interesting unless the other person first expresses an interest. He continues to make jokes and he combines his acting ability with his quick-witted humor. I think putting my son in theater was the best thing I could have done for him.

Now that he is 14 some people describe him as quiet and studious, a big change from when he was six years old. I have also noticed that adults talk to him more--like people who stop to ask him lots of questions about the musical theater group, but it also happens a lot when we are shopping at music stores, Best Buy, video game stores, etc. I guess he looks both knowledgable and approachable. As he got older he learned to tone down his high level vocabulary and explain things in a way that I could understand often using humorous examples. He can't stand to watch videos of professors speaking in a monotone voice and slowly explaining things that should be interesting in such a way that would make most people lose interest in the subject.

Hi TT
With DS6, I too was worried about the performing, and relationships with peers. In Pre-k he had a terrible time with the other kids, always wanting to be in charge. His response at the time was that what they wanted to do was boring and his play was better. He tells people obscure things, because "don't they want to know them!" In K in a gifted school, I noticed his play was more turn taking, there was more conversation with peers. In social settings where he is uncomfortable because it's new or where it's showcase something he isn't good at, he had a tendency to become performing fact man. Now that the kids are demanding he perform on cue, not so much fun, so we had a chat about saying, I think it's someone else's turn. But even at his gifted school, there is a real acknowledgement that he knows more than they do, and he interprets it as he should share his stuff so they know it too. And in both prek and K there was a fascination with his story telling because he creates fully developed worlds. But he is just now learning to invite them in to the world and allow them to actively participate - meaning add to it - rather than just be passive. But my sense is that most kids his age are not creating at his level of depth so he finds it boring to let go the control. But when someone is doing that he is plenty willing to follow rather than lead.

We saw this with his 2-5 years older cousins. They accept him completely for who he is and play with him but since they are older they don't tolerate him being in control. But I don't even think he notices that it is back and forth, and he even follows some of the time. So I would add to DeeDee's always good advice, what does she do with real peers, not age mates, or older kids if no real or approximate peers. And I second DeeDee's telling you to do what you need to do for both your sanity and her development. We have realized, probably a little later than we should have that allowing DS to dominate discussions, play, etc is not good for him or us. First it's the we are the adults factor, not a plaything, and second, it's the modeling social skills factor. So I will tell him later, not now, I'm reading, etc.

But I know what you mean about the social mistakes, DS has made some that just make me cringe, and worry about his social life. But some of the stuff the other kids do are equally cringe worthy - they aren't all innately skilled socially - although there seems to be a higher standard for girls, or a lower quirkiness standard!

DeHe

thanks, DeHe!

She has never played with a peer :-( I keep hoping for one, but we haven't met any. This may be due to the classes she has been in or our lack of a neighborhood. I don't think that she is that unusual that she wouldn't meet another child like herself in this community where the word on the street is that the children are very bright overall and gifted kids are not that uncommon. I am hoping that she meets someone in her first grade class this year and that they took that into consideration with placement. I know she is being placed with two very bright boys, but those boys are more gifted in math and she could really use a creative, imaginative, verbal little girl who can jump in with her, lead, and follow, and who challenges my DD6 in a good way. A mom can dream... We have not sought acceleration because we keep being told that there are other gifted kids etc. The highest group in her K class was still very low for her, but I am hoping that they can do better next year.

We did have some testing that had her at third grade while still in preschool. I had my doubts about skipping her due to emotional and social issues. She had a good year in K and was loved by her teachers and a true leader. I really don't know what to do next year besided wait and see. I tend to worry about the social and emotional piece whereas the school sees this confident kid who had no problem speaking in front of the school twice and who seems very outgoing. I guess I see the vulnerabilities that others don't see.

TT, is it possible that the school is also seeing strengths that you don't see? It sounds like your dd doesn't have playmates at home, and you're her social focus by default. It can be really tough to find playmates for any kid (gifted or not) - parents and kids' schedules are busy, there isn't much time after school, whether or not other kids that your child meshes easily with are in your same neighborhood is really somewhat happenstance. We have been very lucky to have playmates very close by who our daughters bonded easily with - so they are living that typical life where they free-range between houses with same-age peers who they spend hours on end just playing with. They are also fairly close in age so that when they are home without friends, they have each other to play with. My ds, otoh, is older than my daughters, and there are no boys in our neighborhood who are anywhere near his same age, and he can get bored at home really really easily. When he was around 6 years old, he used to talk-talk-talk-talk like crazy to me, always wanting to share some interesting fact or ask really intense questions that he wanted to know the answers to right then. I think if he's simply had a playmate close by to hang out with for a few minutes here and there we wouldn't have seen so much intensity at home.

I also agree with DeeDee's suggestion to schedule a time for the performances - my daughters both like to put on performances for my dh and I (they like to dance and generally act goofy in their performances). When they are eager to perform, we ask them to do the "show" after dinner is over. They generally then go off and work on adding more things to what they want to show us... don't know if that might work for your dd or not? After dinner works as a good time for us to watch because we're tired and don't mind sitting plus it's close enough to bedtime that when we (parents) have seen enough, we can close it out by saying it's time to get ready for bed etc.

Hang in there!

polarbear