Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Learning Environments Help me identify options for DD9

For background, DD just turned 9 and just finished 4th. She skipped 2nd, had a great teacher for 3rd, and had a less-great teacher for 4th. We've got no formal testing, but she missed the DYS 4th-grade cut on the EXPLORE by a point; I'd anticipated that the achievement score would be the part she'd more-likely fall short on.

As I said, she had a less-great teacher for 4th grade - particularly for math. (DD told me today that her teacher scolded her for solving a problem comparing fractions denominated in 14th and 7ths by rewriting the second fraction in 14ths, because they were supposed to use whatever 7*14 is as the implied common denominator.) So we've been summer-schooling math in an attempt to break the bad habits she's gotten into, establish better fraction-handling habits, and develop some number sense. DD is not intuitively mathy, but she likes math.

Fifth grade math is taught in a self-contained classroom in our school - one teacher for all subjects, no ability grouping. We've requested a teacher who's good at teaching math, but there are only 3 teachers to choose from, so "good" is relative. Sixth-eighth grade math is at the middle school across the parking lot, with a dedicated math teacher and 2 or 3 ability levels. State law lets you test out of any class by passing a test in that subject with a score of 90% or higher, and out of an entire grade by passing the tests for each subject.

I'm trying to brainstorm possible options for the coming year, including options unacceptable to one or more of us. The ones I've come up with are:

- be a normal 5th grader and suck it up
- be a normal 5th grader and assiduously afterschool (DD suggested this one; she says school is less boring if she's got something to learn after school)
- full grade skip to 6th (possibly not within her abilities, since Social Studies in 5th is all US history, and we've intentionally done no work in that area)
- subject acceleration to 6th in math
- subject acceleration to 7th (pre-algebra) in math (a stretch, but likely not impossible)
- subject acceleration to 6th in science (with or without an accompanying acceleration in math)
- subject acceleration in some other combination of subjects (unlikely due to lack of kid interest)
- homeschool for a year, possibly with the addition of outside tutoring
- private school (multiple possible options, none of them ideal, and the late-in-the-game timing makes it more difficult, also unlikely due to lack of kid interest)
- online charter public through K-12 or Connections Academy

Anyone have suggestions we haven't thought of? We don't have the option of part-time school / part-time homeschool, due to state law.

[This is more commenting on the options you've got than offering new ones, sorry; I realise it's not what you asked for.]

Why do you say homeschool for a year? Just in order not to look beyond next year, or do you think middle school is going to be much better for her? (That doesn't seem to be what people say in general about US middle schools, but ymmv!) I think you may need to be looking a little beyond this year, just in terms of: is middle school something you think will give her things she needs, or something to be got through as fast as possible...

To clarify: to skip 5th entirely, and go to middle school in a few weeks, she'd need to learn the US history content of 5th in the next few weeks, is that right? Is that the only thing you're doubtful about her passing in the tests for skipping? How does she (and how does your DW) feel about that option?

Can she take both the tests that would let her subject accelerate to 6th in maths and the ones that would let her go to 7th, or do you have to commit to having her take one or the other (so that just missing the cutoff for 7th would leave her in 5th grade maths? or would they do the sane thing and put her in 6th in that case? how would it work?) Are you basing your estimation that she could go to 6th but is borderline for 7th on a careful look at the syllabuses? I don't know how it is in your state but I think this is the stage where there starts to be a fair amount of Stuff in US maths classes, i.e. it'll be more important than it was with her earlier skip to make sure she's been exposed to everything she needs.

If she doesn't full skip this year, do you think she will probably be doing it next year (skipping 6th)? One option would be (with or without subject acceleration for next year) to spend next year planning for her to full grade accelerate next summer, i.e. over the year she's in 5th, afterschool whatever's in 6th that she doesn't know now. Of course that leaves you in a fix if you decide not to go for a full skip next summer, or she doesn't get it - it leaves her in 6th learning a bunch of stuff she's already done in afterschooling. Hmm...

On the subject acceleration side, I don't think it would make much sense to subject accelerate her in science without also doing so in maths. At least in principle there comes a point where the science needs the maths anyway, so getting science ahead of maths formally requires a way to undo that later. And it's pretty clear (isn't it?) that one year of subject acceleration in maths is within her capabilities anyway.

I know I'm like a scratched record on this (that simile's not going to last, is it?!), but what are you doing for her problem-solving abilities in maths? Manipulating fractions is all very well, but it ain't maths :-) Don't let her off doing the fun stuff because she "isn't intuitively mathy"! How does she do if you give her a JMC paper for example?

LOL! If I weren't up for that, I wouldn't ask on the internet.


In order to not look beyond next year, for the most part, but I do think that middle school will be easier than elementary - you get more-interesting subject matter, from teachers with an interest in that subject, and limited ability to set your own schedule. Plus there's ability differentiation to some extent, and the other-parent rumors are that the ability differentiation isn't "more homework for smarter kids."


Honestly, there is no parent support for an additional full grade skip. There's no way to undo the skip (we've asked), and we're concerned that a second skip would limit her choices for college. (Either because the school would think she was too young, which is sort of what happened to me, or because she would feel unprepared to live semi-independently thousands of miles away from us.) For her first skip, she was well-qualified using the IAS with some conservative guesses for IQ and achievement; for a second skip, she'd be marginal even with a high guess for IQ and known-good achievement scores, entirely due to factors beyond her control, like height and skipping the transition year. DD vacillates between wanting a full skip and not wanting one.


We'd have to commit to taking both, so she'd take the 5th test, then if she passed it, take the 6th (probably the next day).


Yes, although the syllabus is not written in a particularly helpful manner. For instance, you might remember from elsewhere that I had difficulty finding examples of addition of fractions with unlike denominators, and looked at the pacing guides and sample end-of-year tests, only to discover that that skill is apparently not tested! Or at least, not sufficiently heavily weighted in the test that you'd get many problems - the sample tests are about the same length as the real thing, and contained no problems on that topic.

I've given her pieces of the end-of-fifth sample test, both sections I thought she could do, and sections I thought she couldn't. And she got all the problems I gave her correct, although there were a few she balked at, saying there was no correct answer or she didn't know how to tackle them - but when I encouraged her to give it a try, she did just fine.

The only reason I'd consider a placement in 7th, rather than 6th, would be to get pre-algebra, rather than basic math. I don't think it would necessarily be a better placement, though, either academically or socially.


Because of the nature of the testing, I don't know that we'd need to take that into account in deciding whether to test. I worry more about conceptual gaps - like the decimal multiplication problem she solved correctly, then asked whether you counted from the right or the left when picking where to put the decimal point. (Upon discussion, it was clear she did not understand why you moved the decimal where.)


No, because we don't really want another full skip. I think if she didn't subject accelerate for the coming year, she would for the next.


Agreed - and DD doesn't particularly want a science acceleration.

At least in principle there comes a point where the science needs the maths anyway, so getting science ahead of maths formally requires a way to undo that later. And it's pretty clear (isn't it?) that one year of subject acceleration in maths is within her capabilities anyway.


I have insufficient math background to figure out how to begin to tackle most of those problems, so can't scaffold them for her. And she's been underchallenged long enough that she's unwilling to attempt a problem that she can't figure out how to solve in a minute or two.

Err, what? You may lack confidence but you don't lack maths background! None of these require anything beyond about 5th grade maths. Look again...

That's the problem that needs to be fixed... But seriously, I think you'll find she *can* figure out most of these in a minute or two, if you can get her (and you!) over the "this isn't a familiar question type" hurdle. And getting over that is absolutely crucial...

My personal opinion is I would subject accelerate in math because it's the most repetitive of the subjects if you already know it.

This one sounds attractive as setting up for a grade skip later. On the other hand, there's no reason to delay a subject acceleration in math now, and she might be able to assiduously study up on social studies enough for a skip over the summer.

I'd try for this by cramming history over the summer. What's to lose? You could fall back to a subject acceleration in math.

I'd try for this at the very least, unless you firmly resolve to homeschool her next year. There's no point in stunting her math growth for a year, or even in having her completely waste her time in math class while afterschooling.

I bet this might make her really come alive, as long as you've prepared her well enough.

I guess this might work. I usually worry about increasing awkwardness with the social group unless it's on the cusp of a move or other change in circumstance. Here, I guess if you're considering a skip, the homeschooling year might help you prepare her much better than afterschooling-- you could probably cover multiple years' worth in all subjects in the same number of hours per day or less. And if she's to skip, it will shake things up regardless.

What I might do is get several irons in the fire-- request end-of-year testing at the start of next year if you decide to go for the skip, request the subject acceleration, etc., then plan to homeschool if things don't go your way.

LOL! Sorry - that's what I get for assuming I've looked at something before! The PDF comes up with the hardest problems first. That said, what I lack on the harder ones isn't computational power; it's "how do I start this." But yes, I think enough of those are accessible to her that it's worth giving them to her with plenty of encouragement.

I've skipped ahead and haven't read beyond colinsmom's post... (I'll return to add to my post if needed).

Connections is what I would recommend over K12 for gifties grades 3-8... reason being that they have effectively got a gifted pull-out which is the real deal with true ability-grouping and live instruction with peers, and has outside work (homework, essentially) that involves higher order literature analysis and synthesis.

K12 offers... hmmm... acceleration through the regular curricular offerings.

One other advantage that Connections would have for you is fluidity. Math is decoupled from the rest of the curriculum, so that would be an area of individual placement, effectively. She could effectively use the Connections program as a "bridge" to accelerate a year, and not have to actually "skip" anything. It would be superior to pure homeschooling in two ways: a) it retains a public school transcript, which makes the entire "grade-skip" discussion a moot one once you return to a local school, and b) while it can generally be completed by most GT kids in about 2-3 hours a day, it also strengthens the 'standard' skill set that schools expect, so homeschooling wouldn't worsen any extant asynchronies. (We found that was a real problem in homeschooling-- my DD could and did rely on preferred methods of learning and expression, which allowed her to leap ahead in some areas and lag in others.)



Compacting and accelerating like this is what we did for 4th-5th with my DD, by the way.

Adding:

It also doesn't mandate a skip (as in, a change in actual grade) since "placement" is a separate thing entirely with Connections. That is, a 7th grader can be taking a couple of high school classes with them and not BE a high school student, if that makes sense. I understand your concerns about a second skip. The Connections program would be a solution to a lot of your problems here, in my opinion.

The way our system is set up, if she tested for the skip, we'd be stuck with it. There's no provision for, "she passed the test but isn't going to take a skip." And we have no parent support (honestly, not from either of us) for a 4th-to-6th skip.


That's the only reason I'd push for it. I looked at the AOPS pre-algebra placement test, and I think she'll be able to pass it by the end of the summer - not that AOPS would be an appropriate math option for her. (I'd do that as a hole-filler once she covered the concepts elsewhere, if I were AOPS-inclined.)


She is already super-awkward. She's the kid who can't do sleepovers because she gets too lonely and scared to sleep at someone else's house. She's the kid who talks like an old-fashioned book, and is doing schoolwork over the summer for fun. She does sports, but not the sports anyone else cares about. She's extremely anti-religion in a part of the country where pretty much everyone is evangelical. And her reaction to feeling othered is to emphasize, rather than downplay, the stuff that's different. (Including things like calling people names in Chinese.)


That's kind of what we're up to - homeschooling is my last-resort backup (based on how our summerschooling is going). But we're getting to the point that we need to decide on acceleration, because it affects what we'd cover in summerschooling. (The last date for signing up for the test is 3 or 4 days before the test date, which is the first week in August.)

Thanks!

I asked the CA people about curriculum compacting back in February, and never got a very clear answer on that. (It's possible that it's too late to get in for the coming year - they say they need applications by 3/31 to get the inter-district transfer.) But it's good to hear that someone had a good experience with them.