Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment extended norms

Hi all-
I posted last night in the 2E thread about DD8 - we just got WISC-IV and WJ-3 testing back. Psychologist says she is gifted, and has a reading disorder/disorder of written expression - her WJ-3 scores in these areas were 30-40 points below her WISC IQ. (And we've been concerned about this from things we've seen at home and school.)

I think her scores are not high enough to make extended norms relevant, but wanted some other input from folks who know more than I do. My DS11 is a DYS; I feel like DD8 would benefit even more than he has from DYS resources, but her GAI on the WISC-IV is 140, below the required 145. Psychologist thinks that in reality her IQ may be higher, but she is really struggling with reading and writing - something we plan to work on moving forward!

Her scores were:
Verbal Comprehension: 138
Similarities - 19
Vocab - 15
Comprehension - 13
Information - 15

Perceptual Reasoning: 129
Block Design 10
Picture concepts 16
Matrix Reasoning 14
Picture Completion 14

Working Memory 126
Digit Span 16
Letter-Number Sequencing 13

Processing Speed 115
Coding 12
Symbol Search 13

Thank you!!!!
Susan

Technical Report #7 on WISC IV Extended Norms says

"The extended norms are useful when a child’s score is the
maximum (ceiling) on two or more subtests (e.g., obtains scaled scores of 18 or 19 points)."

It appears that your DD's scores don't qualify for the extended norms. She is clearly a gifted little girl. Good luck sorting through her 2e issues. The parents on this board can definitely help you in dealing with your 2e/gifted questions.

Thanks fwtxmom! Before I saw your email, I came across this:

"The extended norms only apply if your child achieved at least one subtest score of 19, two scores of 18, or a mixture of 18s and 19s."

from http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/Extended_Norms.html.

Has anyone here ever used extended norms with just 1 subtest of 19?

I'm probably just stretching. I'm feeling discouraged that my daughter is a bright girl, but because of the reading issues, it looks like she will not qualify for the gifted program at school, or any other more advanced work. We're meeting with another person Friday to discuss more, but I'm not optimistic.

She's had a hard year, and I can see her self-esteem suffering. I want her to feel and believe that she is talented, and to find ways to use those. But the reading just keeps getting in the way.

We just got these results, so I've got a number of different things I've just started putting in motion to explore options...I guess today I just feel discouraged, and intimidated by the costs, and unsure of what might work out....

I am not sure why the decision is made one way or another sometimes. My DS had 2 - 19's and an 18 in one index and the tester did not want to use the extended norms. I think he might have been more willing if the difference in his score was going to gain entrance into a program. He literally said no based on the fact that my DS already qualified for DYS without the extended norms.

I have not heard of it being used with just a single 19. That said, if the technical report is validiating it being applied in that situation, then you could certainly ask the tester about it. Keep in mind I think she would have to have a perfect raw score in that section to gain 5 points in her scaled scores. I'm not certain, but if I'm reading the report correctly, it appears that way to me. I'm by no means an expert in testing, I only excessively read through the material trying to understand my own kids scores.

Given you already have the experience with DYS, I would look into all of it for her. The worse case scenario is you don't gain anything from it. If you do gain something the payoff for you DD could be huge. Good luck

Hi JamD,

It has been a while since I have looked at the extended norms, so I'm very rusty on the subject. But here is what I remember.

The use of the extended norms is determined by the raw score of a subtest. It is not dependent on how many 19s or 18s you have. I think psychologists just use the number of 19s or 18s to gauge whether it is worth the effort to plug the raw scores into the extended norms table or not. Sometime a subtest score of 19 will be a soft ceiling, and will not translate to a different score on the extended norms. And sometime a 19 will be a hard ceiling and the score will change substantially with the extended norms. The more 19s a child has, the higher the probability that one of those 19 will be a hard ceiling.

My son had three 19s and an 18 on the WISC-IV, but only one of them had a raw score that was in the range of the extended norms. When the raw score was corrected with the use of extended norms table, the scaled score jumped from a 19 to a 22 and his PRI score changed by a full 10 points, from 145 to a 155.

So I would recommend looking at the raw score for the Similarities. The 19 scaled score may be a soft ceiling or a hard ceiling 19. You really won't know until you look up the score on the Extended Norms table. It doesn't take much time or effort on your part, and it would give you some peace of mind to know.

The other thing to keep in mind is that, while we treat the WISC-IV as the "end all, be all" for IQ testing, it is really just a snap shot of your child on one particular day. I don't know how many kids end up taking the WISC-IV twice over several years, but I think the scores have some movement or fluidity to them. My DS12 scored in the DYS level both times, at a 7 year old and as a 10 year old, but the scores changed quite a bit. One year the PRI was 10 points higher than the VCI, and then the next time they flipped. The VCI was 10 points higher than the PRI. So I am a firm believer in the view that any test is just a small piece of information for a large and complex puzzle. Maybe that is because my child is VERY complex, with significant 2Es: ADHD, sensory issues, and a large helping of asynchronous development. I would guess that for a more balanced child, the scores would be more stable.

Hope this helps?

Do you have the raw scores so you can see yourself if the # is likely to change? That might give you a clue as to how much the overall # is an underestimation (if it is). My one child for whom we were told the composite # was a bare minimum and who has always appeared more than the MG-mildly HG her FSIQ and GAI appeared on the WISC at 7, had a big jump when I went back and looked at her one 19, which lent credence to my assumption that she was more able that the test indicated.

Like a pp said, it is more likely that the ceiling is "hard" when there are a lot of scores in that 18-19 range, but when you're dealing with just one 19 that jumps to something like a 22 or 23 with extended norms, it might be a good clue that the other #s in that index might be a bit low if they aren't similarly high. I hope that I am making sense here (very tired!).

For instance, my one whose 19 would have jumped to a 23 had an 8 on block design, another test in the same index. She wasn't given any alternate tests in that index and, from what we understand, refused to complete the block design test so the big jump on the 19 on one of those other two tests in PRI was a reasonable clue to us that the PRI was a low ball based not only on the 19 moving, but that she presumably could have done better on the the one where she got an 8 had she not frozen on it.

*like*
I also wonder about the gifted program. Do you think your daughter would benifit from that level of instruction? Even if her reading is weak, her Verbal scores are very high, higher than most of the kids when the cut off is 130. If you think she would benifit from the program that they have, I'd encourage you to ask for it. It's interesting to see how strong she is in every subscale - it makes me think that she'll respond strongly to the extra help in her challenge areas.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

I'd ask the evaluator to give you the raw scores and recalculate the GAI yourself. If it meets Davidson criteria, have the evaluator issue a new report.

Thanks for all the input! I contacted the testing psychologist. She actually had already looked at extended norms and found it would not help with DYS. (But I'm happy to hear that she is so informed and proactive that she already looked!)

I just posted more in the Twice Exceptional thread, under "dyslexia diagnosis." The school meeting was discouraging. Gifted program seems unlikely, though not ruled out...

Dottie, thanks for the 2E list suggestion - I will subscribe.

Thanks!