Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Dyslexia or ADD

I have a couple questions and will try to be as concise as possible.

Dd11 has quite a few things in common with dh and both have ADHD inattentive type diagnoses. She has done better in some regards in a very structured middle school environment that her older HG+ sister would have hated b/c it has huge amounts of drill of mechanics. B/c detail and mechanics are weaknesses of dd11's, it is forcing some improvement in that area, though.

Some of dd's issues clearly seem ADD related, but some I'm not so sure on. So, I guess that my questions are:

1) what does one do to help with dyslexic symptoms in a child who is quite possibly HG+ especially when the traditional problems don't exist (phonics difficulties, reversals, etc.)?

2) what does this sound like if not ADD/does this sound like possible dyslexia (see below)?

Dd strongly dislikes reading, reads very slowly, and says that it gives her headaches. She loses her place on the page, misspells the same word multiple different ways on one page (although her spelling is still good -- at or above grade level whenever it's been tested on things like the WIAT), and frequently misread easy words when she was younger substituting "from" instead of "for" or skipping words (especially easy/short words) up until maybe 3rd grade.

On the WISC-IV, which she took at 7 and again at 8, she is HG or even PG (99.9+ the first time) with a lot of scatter (scores from 8-19 with very high VCI both times -- 99.7th the first and 99th the second with a breakdown that was 19, 17, 12 if I recall correctly). WMI and PSI are always much lower than PRI and VCI primarily due to massive amounts of mistakes not actual speed issues in the instance of PSI.

She performs above grade level in all areas including reading comprehension and was always advanced on tests like DIBELS which test phenome awareness/sounding out nonsense words. On the GORT (oral reading test) @ 8, she was in the 4th quartile for everything (comprehension included) except reading speed, which was in the 1st quartile.

Interventions for ADD help with some of her issues like lack of attention to detail, transferring the wrong answer to the answer line, calculation errors, overlooking entire pages on tests, etc. She chews gum to concentrate, drinks some caffeinated beverages like tea and a little coffee, the structure of her school and study techniques we've implemented, and some dietary supplements.

She is in accelerated classes and is very young for grade (started early having not made the cut-off by two weeks; we got around it by starting in a different district) and she is getting all As right now.

What continues to concern me is that she dislikes reading so much, would never choose to read for pleasure, and finds it so hard. Her reading speed also strikes me as something that will present her problems later on b/c the reading load is only going to become heavier as she moves into high school and I hate to have her options for AP classes be limited by her inability to read quickly. As it is, she's been working her way reluctantly through the same book (which she says is good) for months.

How does one treat dyslexia if that's what it is? The few methods I've seen, like making words out of clay so the person can recognize them in text (from the book the Gift of Dyslexia), don't seem to be cut out for her issues.

How is her vision? Has she been checked by a Behavioral Optometrist to see if her visual processing is affected?

Yes, she has. There was nothing wrong. The only thing they found was that she was slightly more far sighted than would be typical for age but no tracking or convergence issues.

FWIW, dh has the exact same symptoms plus possibly a few more. He, too reads very slowly, doesn't like reading, loses his place on the page, and says that he often has to re-read passages to understand what he just read.

I doubt that developmental/behavioral optometrists existed when he was a kid and he's not had that type of eye exam himself, but I am leaning toward thinking that it is some sort of hereditary wiring issue more so than an eye issue.

I was wondering about vision too, and also if you had a full neuropsych evaluation back when your dd was given the WISCs previously. Both of my dds have had issues with reading - and both did many of the same things you've mentioned about your dd above with respect to reading - but both dds were struggling for two very different reasons. Oldest dd (now 10) had vision challenges (tracking, convergence insufficiency, double vision which caused one eye to shut off, and severe lack of peripheral vision). My younger dd is more obviously intellectually gifted - she is one of the incredibly driven high-achieving types of gifted kids - and although she started reading on her own at a young age, she didn't progress as fast as most other children and by first grade she was only at grade level. She went through educational testing this spring that showed a large relative weakness in associative memory - in her case, her brain has a tough time remembering associations between pictures and words.

If you haven't had neurospych testing, it would most likely be helpful in sorting out the issues - although... I'll add a caveat here... it has to be a neuropsych who understands gifted kids and reading. We were concerned about my ds12's reading development at his last neuropsych evaluation last year (fluency #s falling since previous eval, inability to summarize, reluctance to read, not reading front-to-back of books etc - yet still reading quickly and with a huge vocabulary). Our neuropsych still insisted no problem - and now 1 year later ds hit a huge bump in the reading road at school during his humanities course that imo is screaming stealth dyslexia. Soooo... I recommend a neuropsych and I also caution about it - I'm sooooo not helpful, eh? If you seek out a neuropsych, be sure to ask prior to testing about their experience with gifted kids with reading challenges.

Best wishes,

polarbear

The second WISC was given as part of a comprehensive neuropsych exam that was wholly useless despite a rather lot of $ spent. We went with this psych b/c she had extensive experience working with kids with LDs and did say that she had experience with gifted kids as well, but I'm guessing that she had less experience with that population than she presented.

She wrote into the report that there were no LDs, no ADD, and that dd was less intelligent than her older sister (one of her IQ tests was higher, the other was a few points lower than her sister's). She also went on to opine that dd's problems were caused by pressure from parents to perform above her potential and that, while dd seemed bright, she was nothing out of the ordinary. Given the inclusion of numerous 99th-99.9th scores in that testing (and her WIAT was closer to the first set of WISC scores from a year earlier), I'd tend to differ.

She attributed the higher WIAT than expected given the second set of WISC scores to hothousing on our behalf. Dd had not even been close to hothoused. She had been massively educationally misplaced that year in 3rd grade and we had done nothing in terms of enrichment. The only thing we got out of it was the WIAT in combo with the IQ was enough for me to get pushy and get her included in GT classes @ school despite wildly erratic group test scores that sometimes qualified and sometimes didn't.

The ADD dx came from counseling sessions with a different psych the following year b/c the prior eval really didn't explain the ongoing problems we were seeing. Despite the neuropsych eval stating that she should not be placed in GT classes b/c that would just pressure her more and create more problems and that she didn't need it, she's done much, much better in terms of achievement and self image since she's been included in these types of classes.

We really can't afford another $1,000+ full eval.

That is so sad - qualifies for the 'wall of shame' thread!

As for the ADD, I wish I could remember if you have gone the medication route, and if so, did that help at all? What were the pros and cons?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

How is her writing? Dyslexia tends to be really apparent in writing. Not just in the spelling but the entire structure of the writing. It tends to be really disorganized and choppy structure.

The letter reversal is not as common as people think, but reordering the letters in a word can be seen sometimes.

Does she seem to have an solid phonetic awareness? Does she sound out words or memorize them?

It is hard to imagine achievement testing related like Dibels or GORT being super high with dyslexia. I know some of the traits of ADD and dyslexia can be similar with disorganization, planning, time management, etc.



Could she be tired from trying to focus and getting a headache from that? I know DS gets mentally tired out by his ADHD. His physical energy is still running circles around me despite his mental drain.



That seems rather unprofessional to me! Why would her sister even be mentioned in a report about her cognitive abilities? How is 99th+ ordinary? I don't know how much weight I would give comments like that.

Oh yikes Cricket - that neuropsych was horrid!!! Ugh!!!!

You asked back in the OP about how one "treats" dyslexia - and like you mentioned, the remediation techniques tend to be aimed at beginning readers. From what I understand the approach varies according to a student's unique set of needs too (at least somewhat), plus if it's not what it typically considered to be dyslexia but instead some other cause - a dyslexia-oriented approach might not work. Sooooo.... given that another neuropsych eval might not be doable, I'd consider a few other things:

1) If you can afford a developmental optometrist evaluation and you feel relatively sure that the dr you'll see for it is credible, do that in place of her regular eye exam next year (I only say "in place of" because the eye dr that we had our dd's vision therapy through included a standard exam as part of his intake evaluation). Although it isn't true for everyone, our insurance paid for our dd's developmental optometrist evaluation and the bulk of her vision therapy - so, it's at least worth a look into.

2) Try to get your dd accommodations at school based on what you know already from her previous testing. Our dd who has the associative memory challenge has recommendations for accommodations that include books on tape (including textbooks), quiet place in the classroom for testing, not graded on spelling except on spelling tests, a copy of times tables etc or calculator during math work (that's not a reading accommodation, but a lot of kids who have challenges with reading have issues with memorizing math facts), and other accommodations which I can't remember at the moment!

3) You might be able to find a person through your local dyslexia association who could either give you advice or give your dd a dyslexia screening for much less $ than a neuropsych evaluation. Our ds had a spelling tutor many years ago who we found through our neuropsych who was "just a mom" initially but went back to school to become an educational consultant after raising her own dyslexic children. We had our dd screened for dyslexia through a retired sped teacher who now consults for our local homeschooling community.

4) Re-read the Eides' books and see what they suggest. I've got that on my own list of things to do - one of these days...

Best wishes,

polarbear

FWIW, my dd10 who went through vision therapy after struggling to learn to read tested high on DIBELS, and high on parts of GORT too, but lower on other parts - it's been way too many years for me to remember what she scored high vs low on... all in all... it didn't stand out like classic dyslexia and fwiw dd *did* look very much like a child with ADHD (her pediatrician was convinced she had ADHD, as well as her parents!)... but she doesn't - the behaviors that looked like ADHD were for the most part tied to her vision challenges.

Trying to figure out what's up with things like this can be soooo so very challenging!

polarbear

Her ideas are very good and I'd say that overall she's again a very good writer for her grade level but not performing on par with her VCI. She won a regional writing contest last year as well.

Where I'd say she has problems in writing is with the mechanics of it. Punctuation is in the wrong place or missing, for instance. They've focused on mechanics and punctuation ad nauseum this year, but she still isn't totally fixing the errors she makes. It isn't atrocious, though.

I'd say that her phonetic awareness is good. She wrote things phonetically when she was younger and they made sense -- stuff like "I luv kats," when she was 4, for instance. She still misspells things but she does so phonetically. I do think that she is mishearing things at times, though, and has a few things that she consistently mispronounces (like pah-ler bears instead of polar bears). Another example was the other day when she was writing the shopping list while my oldest dictated what we needed. Kalamata olives became something like camalata olives.

There is no hx of ear infections or hearing issues, though, and her speech was very early and well enunciated. She was putting two words together by 5.5 months and really never used baby talk.


To be honest, dd has pretty decent time management and isn't horribly disorganized or someone who has trouble with planning. Where she does have major issues are in attention to detail, misreading directions b/c she has a very divergent way of reading things and reads something totally different into it than what would be "obvious" to most of us, and in making simple errors like simple calculation errors or miscopying things.


Maybe; I'll ask her.

That was my thought as well. It was in the context of family history -- something like "[dd] is the younger of two sisters..." and went on to state that she seemed to be less intelligent than her sister later in the report when it was opining on the reasons for her problems (anxiety due to parental pressure, trying to live up to a sister who was more able, and so on). I was really quite unhappy that this was in there. Honestly, dd11 may be more intelligent than her sister for all we know.