I have a couple questions and will try to be as concise as possible.

Dd11 has quite a few things in common with dh and both have ADHD inattentive type diagnoses. She has done better in some regards in a very structured middle school environment that her older HG+ sister would have hated b/c it has huge amounts of drill of mechanics. B/c detail and mechanics are weaknesses of dd11's, it is forcing some improvement in that area, though.

Some of dd's issues clearly seem ADD related, but some I'm not so sure on. So, I guess that my questions are:

1) what does one do to help with dyslexic symptoms in a child who is quite possibly HG+ especially when the traditional problems don't exist (phonics difficulties, reversals, etc.)?

2) what does this sound like if not ADD/does this sound like possible dyslexia (see below)?

Dd strongly dislikes reading, reads very slowly, and says that it gives her headaches. She loses her place on the page, misspells the same word multiple different ways on one page (although her spelling is still good -- at or above grade level whenever it's been tested on things like the WIAT), and frequently misread easy words when she was younger substituting "from" instead of "for" or skipping words (especially easy/short words) up until maybe 3rd grade.

On the WISC-IV, which she took at 7 and again at 8, she is HG or even PG (99.9+ the first time) with a lot of scatter (scores from 8-19 with very high VCI both times -- 99.7th the first and 99th the second with a breakdown that was 19, 17, 12 if I recall correctly). WMI and PSI are always much lower than PRI and VCI primarily due to massive amounts of mistakes not actual speed issues in the instance of PSI.

She performs above grade level in all areas including reading comprehension and was always advanced on tests like DIBELS which test phenome awareness/sounding out nonsense words. On the GORT (oral reading test) @ 8, she was in the 4th quartile for everything (comprehension included) except reading speed, which was in the 1st quartile.

Interventions for ADD help with some of her issues like lack of attention to detail, transferring the wrong answer to the answer line, calculation errors, overlooking entire pages on tests, etc. She chews gum to concentrate, drinks some caffeinated beverages like tea and a little coffee, the structure of her school and study techniques we've implemented, and some dietary supplements.

She is in accelerated classes and is very young for grade (started early having not made the cut-off by two weeks; we got around it by starting in a different district) and she is getting all As right now.

What continues to concern me is that she dislikes reading so much, would never choose to read for pleasure, and finds it so hard. Her reading speed also strikes me as something that will present her problems later on b/c the reading load is only going to become heavier as she moves into high school and I hate to have her options for AP classes be limited by her inability to read quickly. As it is, she's been working her way reluctantly through the same book (which she says is good) for months.

How does one treat dyslexia if that's what it is? The few methods I've seen, like making words out of clay so the person can recognize them in text (from the book the Gift of Dyslexia), don't seem to be cut out for her issues.

How is her vision? Has she been checked by a Behavioral Optometrist to see if her visual processing is affected?

Yes, she has. There was nothing wrong. The only thing they found was that she was slightly more far sighted than would be typical for age but no tracking or convergence issues.

FWIW, dh has the exact same symptoms plus possibly a few more. He, too reads very slowly, doesn't like reading, loses his place on the page, and says that he often has to re-read passages to understand what he just read.

I doubt that developmental/behavioral optometrists existed when he was a kid and he's not had that type of eye exam himself, but I am leaning toward thinking that it is some sort of hereditary wiring issue more so than an eye issue.

I was wondering about vision too, and also if you had a full neuropsych evaluation back when your dd was given the WISCs previously. Both of my dds have had issues with reading - and both did many of the same things you've mentioned about your dd above with respect to reading - but both dds were struggling for two very different reasons. Oldest dd (now 10) had vision challenges (tracking, convergence insufficiency, double vision which caused one eye to shut off, and severe lack of peripheral vision). My younger dd is more obviously intellectually gifted - she is one of the incredibly driven high-achieving types of gifted kids - and although she started reading on her own at a young age, she didn't progress as fast as most other children and by first grade she was only at grade level. She went through educational testing this spring that showed a large relative weakness in associative memory - in her case, her brain has a tough time remembering associations between pictures and words.

If you haven't had neurospych testing, it would most likely be helpful in sorting out the issues - although... I'll add a caveat here... it has to be a neuropsych who understands gifted kids and reading. We were concerned about my ds12's reading development at his last neuropsych evaluation last year (fluency #s falling since previous eval, inability to summarize, reluctance to read, not reading front-to-back of books etc - yet still reading quickly and with a huge vocabulary). Our neuropsych still insisted no problem - and now 1 year later ds hit a huge bump in the reading road at school during his humanities course that imo is screaming stealth dyslexia. Soooo... I recommend a neuropsych and I also caution about it - I'm sooooo not helpful, eh? If you seek out a neuropsych, be sure to ask prior to testing about their experience with gifted kids with reading challenges.

Best wishes,

polarbear

The second WISC was given as part of a comprehensive neuropsych exam that was wholly useless despite a rather lot of $ spent. We went with this psych b/c she had extensive experience working with kids with LDs and did say that she had experience with gifted kids as well, but I'm guessing that she had less experience with that population than she presented.

She wrote into the report that there were no LDs, no ADD, and that dd was less intelligent than her older sister (one of her IQ tests was higher, the other was a few points lower than her sister's). She also went on to opine that dd's problems were caused by pressure from parents to perform above her potential and that, while dd seemed bright, she was nothing out of the ordinary. Given the inclusion of numerous 99th-99.9th scores in that testing (and her WIAT was closer to the first set of WISC scores from a year earlier), I'd tend to differ.

She attributed the higher WIAT than expected given the second set of WISC scores to hothousing on our behalf. Dd had not even been close to hothoused. She had been massively educationally misplaced that year in 3rd grade and we had done nothing in terms of enrichment. The only thing we got out of it was the WIAT in combo with the IQ was enough for me to get pushy and get her included in GT classes @ school despite wildly erratic group test scores that sometimes qualified and sometimes didn't.

The ADD dx came from counseling sessions with a different psych the following year b/c the prior eval really didn't explain the ongoing problems we were seeing. Despite the neuropsych eval stating that she should not be placed in GT classes b/c that would just pressure her more and create more problems and that she didn't need it, she's done much, much better in terms of achievement and self image since she's been included in these types of classes.

We really can't afford another $1,000+ full eval.

That is so sad - qualifies for the 'wall of shame' thread!

As for the ADD, I wish I could remember if you have gone the medication route, and if so, did that help at all? What were the pros and cons?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

How is her writing? Dyslexia tends to be really apparent in writing. Not just in the spelling but the entire structure of the writing. It tends to be really disorganized and choppy structure.

The letter reversal is not as common as people think, but reordering the letters in a word can be seen sometimes.

Does she seem to have an solid phonetic awareness? Does she sound out words or memorize them?

It is hard to imagine achievement testing related like Dibels or GORT being super high with dyslexia. I know some of the traits of ADD and dyslexia can be similar with disorganization, planning, time management, etc.



Could she be tired from trying to focus and getting a headache from that? I know DS gets mentally tired out by his ADHD. His physical energy is still running circles around me despite his mental drain.



That seems rather unprofessional to me! Why would her sister even be mentioned in a report about her cognitive abilities? How is 99th+ ordinary? I don't know how much weight I would give comments like that.

Oh yikes Cricket - that neuropsych was horrid!!! Ugh!!!!

You asked back in the OP about how one "treats" dyslexia - and like you mentioned, the remediation techniques tend to be aimed at beginning readers. From what I understand the approach varies according to a student's unique set of needs too (at least somewhat), plus if it's not what it typically considered to be dyslexia but instead some other cause - a dyslexia-oriented approach might not work. Sooooo.... given that another neuropsych eval might not be doable, I'd consider a few other things:

1) If you can afford a developmental optometrist evaluation and you feel relatively sure that the dr you'll see for it is credible, do that in place of her regular eye exam next year (I only say "in place of" because the eye dr that we had our dd's vision therapy through included a standard exam as part of his intake evaluation). Although it isn't true for everyone, our insurance paid for our dd's developmental optometrist evaluation and the bulk of her vision therapy - so, it's at least worth a look into.

2) Try to get your dd accommodations at school based on what you know already from her previous testing. Our dd who has the associative memory challenge has recommendations for accommodations that include books on tape (including textbooks), quiet place in the classroom for testing, not graded on spelling except on spelling tests, a copy of times tables etc or calculator during math work (that's not a reading accommodation, but a lot of kids who have challenges with reading have issues with memorizing math facts), and other accommodations which I can't remember at the moment!

3) You might be able to find a person through your local dyslexia association who could either give you advice or give your dd a dyslexia screening for much less $ than a neuropsych evaluation. Our ds had a spelling tutor many years ago who we found through our neuropsych who was "just a mom" initially but went back to school to become an educational consultant after raising her own dyslexic children. We had our dd screened for dyslexia through a retired sped teacher who now consults for our local homeschooling community.

4) Re-read the Eides' books and see what they suggest. I've got that on my own list of things to do - one of these days...

Best wishes,

polarbear

FWIW, my dd10 who went through vision therapy after struggling to learn to read tested high on DIBELS, and high on parts of GORT too, but lower on other parts - it's been way too many years for me to remember what she scored high vs low on... all in all... it didn't stand out like classic dyslexia and fwiw dd *did* look very much like a child with ADHD (her pediatrician was convinced she had ADHD, as well as her parents!)... but she doesn't - the behaviors that looked like ADHD were for the most part tied to her vision challenges.

Trying to figure out what's up with things like this can be soooo so very challenging!

polarbear

Her ideas are very good and I'd say that overall she's again a very good writer for her grade level but not performing on par with her VCI. She won a regional writing contest last year as well.

Where I'd say she has problems in writing is with the mechanics of it. Punctuation is in the wrong place or missing, for instance. They've focused on mechanics and punctuation ad nauseum this year, but she still isn't totally fixing the errors she makes. It isn't atrocious, though.

I'd say that her phonetic awareness is good. She wrote things phonetically when she was younger and they made sense -- stuff like "I luv kats," when she was 4, for instance. She still misspells things but she does so phonetically. I do think that she is mishearing things at times, though, and has a few things that she consistently mispronounces (like pah-ler bears instead of polar bears). Another example was the other day when she was writing the shopping list while my oldest dictated what we needed. Kalamata olives became something like camalata olives.

There is no hx of ear infections or hearing issues, though, and her speech was very early and well enunciated. She was putting two words together by 5.5 months and really never used baby talk.


To be honest, dd has pretty decent time management and isn't horribly disorganized or someone who has trouble with planning. Where she does have major issues are in attention to detail, misreading directions b/c she has a very divergent way of reading things and reads something totally different into it than what would be "obvious" to most of us, and in making simple errors like simple calculation errors or miscopying things.


Maybe; I'll ask her.

That was my thought as well. It was in the context of family history -- something like "[dd] is the younger of two sisters..." and went on to state that she seemed to be less intelligent than her sister later in the report when it was opining on the reasons for her problems (anxiety due to parental pressure, trying to live up to a sister who was more able, and so on). I was really quite unhappy that this was in there. Honestly, dd11 may be more intelligent than her sister for all we know.

We did have her looked at by a developmental optometrist when she was about 8 before the last set of testing. She found nothing wrong other than the slight farsightedness. Vision therapy was not recommended. I do know that our insurance will not cover anything related to vision at all, though, other than basic eye exams @ the peds office. Since it came back clear once, I'm not inclined to spend the $ on it again.

Books on tape might help and I've been thinking about that for home, honestly. No one would know if she read the Lord of the Flies or listened to it on tape!

The reason we haven't sought accommodations has been b/c the few we've tried haven't helped and I haven't known what else to ask for. Extra time made no difference; that was the main one we tried last year. Not being graded on spelling might, though.

Do you think that someone with experience testing for dyslexia would recognize it in a HG kid who is performing beyond age expectations in reading/writing?

I actually haven't read their book although looking more at their website and other stuff is also on my list. Do they have more than one book or should I be able to find it just by looking for the one book they've written?

Thanks!

No, we have not. Dd is very opposed to treating ADD at all. She's been refusing to take o-3 supplements even although they seemed to help last year. She seems to view it as us saying that there is something wrong with her that needs fixing. I don't expect that I could talk her into meds and I don't want to force it on her.

I try to go the supplement route with those things that seem to make a difference surreptitiously. I put magnesium in her smoothies, feed her foods with ALA o-3s since the only veggie DHA comes from algae and tastes so bad that she'd notice if I slipped it into food (although DHA is probably better)...

Cricket2, have you read "the Dyslexic Advantage" by the Eides? they have a website related to the book as well. It's all about reframing dyslexia as its strengths and how to develop them in people/kids. There are probably some ADD books like that as well. Thomas Armstrong comes to mind.

Your DD sounds pretty sophisticated with regard to her opinions of treating ADD (a relative of mine's son did also when he was younger and now he's majoring in educational psychology at college, he's pretty passionate about it!) Is she mostly keeping away from artificial dyes, tons of preservatives, high fructose corn syrup etc.?

When I was 12 I had severe poison ivy (in bed for 2 weeks, couldn't walk, my eyes were closed shut). They gave me pain meds but I ended up refusing them because of how they made me feel. I wanted to soak in a tub and rest etc., have silence.

Maybe if you could reframe these issues with her to realize the strengths they translate to for her and what she can offer?!

That's what the Eides book is all about.

I used to have a friend who taught K and she said she saw her ADHD kids as the "hunter gatherers" who were good at staying still for short times but moving around alot, darting when needed...and the sit-still, scheduled kids as the "agriculturalists" who followed the rhythms of the season, could patiently wait, etc.

oh yes and the stuff about the older sister is horrible. It's one thing when people make comments within earshot of a child, but someone you're paying to help your child? Please?!

As a second daughter and the quiet/slow one I take personal offense - !

Here is an short summary of the different types of dyslexia.

http://www.macalester.edu/academics/psychology/whathap/ubnrp/dyslexia/types.html

My DS19 has the phonetic/coding issues type of dyslexia. His misspelled words didn't even have the phonetic awareness and his over writing was disorganized even when spelled correctly. He is MG not HG+. I will say his MG has helped him overcome the disability as well as can be expected.

I know there are at least 3 types but I'm not familiar with the others.

I have heard friends mention caffiene can help with ADHD. I had a doctor ask me about my caffeine intake and if I was self medicating with the coffee ...hmmm I'm still pondering that one.

Cricket, so many of your daughter's challenges sound similar to my DD. I've been contemplating whether we need further assessment or alternate diagnosis for her too. I understand your frustration and desire for answers.

I seem to recall that the Sally Shaywitz book Overcoming Dyslexia had a passage about a gifted dyslexic who was a high functioning but slow reader. I haven't read Dyslexic Advantage -- it wasn't out yet when I was in my obsessive reading phase about gifted dyslexics. I did read the Eides' Mislabeled Child and listened to their webinar on Dyslexia and Writing Challenges in Gifted Children. The webinar mentioned that gifted dyslexics were not caught by most typical screeners for dyslexia including phonemic awareness. Unfortunately, the DVD had such poor resolution that I couldn't read the graphic that they presented in any detail. They said that the one area where gifted dyslexic consistently struggle is with writing conventions and spelling. They felt that keyboarding was imperative for these kids. They recommended Write Out Loud software and some others that I can't recall. They found that spelling and conventions improved after several months using this type of product. I'll see if I can borrow those DVDs again and give them another listen. It probably would be good for me to revisit this info. I'll let you know if they had any other recommendations. I would assume that most of the content got into Dyslexic Advantage since it came out shortly after that.

As for rocky mountain dyslexia folks, they were very nice but didn't really view my DD as dyslexic. Most of the kids they work with are not reading two years above grade level. You could give them a try. They may have gained different expertise in the interim. Another recommendation that I got was to contact Beverly Trail. She is on the CAGT board and wrote a book on 2e issues. I never got around to doing it so I can't tell you if she is helpful.

If I were totally responsible for her diet, she'd be eating none of those items, but dh has a major sweet tooth and buys huge amounts of complete crud. His last shopping trip (he likes shopping a lot) included three packages of oreos and licorice.

I'd say that she eats 75-85% stuff that I buy and then dad slips in junk. My stuff is all whole grain, lots of fruits, veggies, nuts, beans, things like tempeh, no preservatives, no HFCS, no trans-fats, low sugar in general, no food dyes, etc.

Thank you all for the book recommendations, BTW. I'll see if I can get both the Eides' book and the other one mentioned later.

Sounds like the problem may be visual dyslexia. Most visual dyslexics can describe the visual problems that makes reading difficult. Some visual dyslexics will assume their vision is normal but reveal their visual problems in a discussion about vision and reading. All you have to do is talk to her.

Ask if she has any trouble seeing the letters or words that makes reading difficult as a start.

Ask if all the letters and words are complete ( no parts missing) , clear not fuzzy , uniform ( look the same ) , stable ( not moving ), all in focus at the same time , words or lines run together and last if she has any reading induced headaches or if reading makes her tired or sleepy.

After the discussion you will know if she has visual issues that need to be addressed. You would be amazed at the # of surprised parents of even adult children that find out their child with reading difficulties thought it was normal to have to wait for each word to come into focus before they could read it or having to guess what the letters were because parts were always missing or thought reading was like a long wheel of fortune game with letters missing from words where you just guess and go on.

Visual dyslexia is much less common than dyslexia and much easier to remedy but the reading symptoms are similar. Visual dyslexics normally lack the oral language and communication problems , word confusion , executive function , short term memory , left / right , language delay and other associated problems that are often found to indicate dyslexia.

You can find more information about visual dyslexia at dyslexiaglasses.com/visualdyslexiasolution.html if your daughter describes any visual problems that cause reading difficulties or you can eliminate visual dyslexia as causal if the discussion is negative for visual problems.

I can cover up the taste of the fish oil with mint extract.

DD eats these "bars" that are black beans, honey, cocoa powder, flax meal, and fish oil all mixed in the food processor. I stir in raw oatmeal, then squish it into blocks with wax paper and freeze it.

Looks nasty, but she's eating it willingly and getting 300 mg of fish oil each day without complaint.

Has anyone had luck with these types of glasses? It looks like something similar to irlen syndrome to me and I know that most major dyslexia associations don't believe that colored lenses actually work. $220 is a lot to spend for glasses unless they really work.

John Hayes appears to own that website. It's spam.

Yeah, quick easy solutions always bring out the skeptic in me. When they are being suggested by a first time poster, I would tend toward even greater skepticism.

The difficult thing when dealing with stuff like this is that a lot of the treatments that people suggest, vision therapy included, are not well thought of by the greater traditional medical community and, as much as I'd love a "fix," I'm not sure that there is one especially in these types of things that have little or no scientific data to support them.

Mostly, I'd like techniques that we could use to help her learn to make her own accommodations for the areas where she struggles. In re to the ADD, we've been somewhat able to do that. She underlines words in directions that are asking her to do something so she remembers that there are three things to do, for instance, rather than just two b/c she underlined three words. I just don't know what the work arounds for her other issues might be.

I am going to pick up the books suggested earlier, though, in the hopes that they might have some ideas.

Hi Cricket,

I don't have any great advice to add. As you know, we are in the exact same boat with DD9.5. She has great accomodations, for the most part, but we are often left wondering if we are doing the best we can. I have pretty much given up trying to tease the ADD issues from the dyslexia/dysgraphia issues. Everything is emeshed deeply in the fiber of 'her'. I'm not sure what each individual accomodation addresses, but I do know that on a whole they are helping... thank goodness because it took us three years of trying to achieve moderate success!

Before DD's dyslexia diagnosis was 'removed' (she has stealth dyslexia), we had her on a waiting list for Orton-Gillingham tutoring. They organization that ran the program checked in regularly and advocated strongly for us to continue to foster a love of the written word. If your daughter does not already have an IEP or accomodations about reading, this may be a place to start. She absolutely should have access to audio books. We were advised to give unlimited access and to offer to read to her each night.

RE: her dislike of reading, my husband is undiagnosed ADD (would stake my coffeemaker on it) and he has not read an entire book in the 14 years I have known him. He wants to do it, and often starts books, but his inability to pay attention prevents him from a)getting anything out of the book, b)enjoying what he is reading (he engages in verbal battle with himself to keep reading rather than paying attention to what the words mean, and he has to reread passages multiple times), c)finishing the story. In his case, the reading difficulties are completely ADD-related. It is very likely that your daughter is battling both the ADD and dyslexia with her reading difficulties making it a more complex picture and harder to get the accomodations just right.

As I have said before, I wish you were someone I knew IRL. Your daughter and your family struggle with the same dilemmas we face daily. Best of luck sorting it all out.... and if you ever do, can you tell me what works???

These folks claim to have scientific data - although there are levels of quality of scientific data - if you start reading, do let me know what you think.

www.cogmed.com/
www.heartmath.org/research/research.../research-center-home.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130896102

I haven't used any of the above methods - my DS15 thinks it's 'hippie stuff.' I'm currently trying to moderate my levels of alertness and energy (similar to Neurofeedback) using Meditation breathing, and yup - I aim for about 5 minutes daily while most people do 15 to 20 minutes.

Thanks, Grinity. I'm kind of a research junkie and a bit weird in that I'm a bit of hippie at heart myself but I want data to support the alternative things that appeal to me. Although I must admit that I'm more willing to try dietary changes and supplements without data than other things possibly b/c they are cheap and, if they don't work, I'm not out a lot of money -- lol!

We have a busy next two weeks, but I'll try to get to reading some of this and getting the earlier mentioned books once our exchange student heads home.

When we were looking into vision therapy last year for DD, we let it go because it was so expensive and we really couldn't get any good data to conclude it would work. And the guy's contract really emphasized about how if we didn't do abc for xyz amount of time per week, he was not to be held responsible for lack of effectiveness.

Always be wary of someone who is telling you what the problem is AND telling you that you need to give them money to fix it for you!

For the vision, playing darts and doing alot more throwing and catching and a target-shooting multiplication game seems to help. And just being allowed to hold her books/worksheets at least 8 inches away from her face.

I tend to be skeptical about non-traditional ideas and also of people who make a profit off of those ideas, but fwiw, vision therapy actually has a good reputation and a long history of success for people who's vision difficulties are related to muscle weakness. Vision therapy for our dd was first suggested by a neuropsychologist (board-certified, highly respected neuropsych). My dh and I were still beyond skeptical because it sounded like hocus-pocus to us, so I did the very most next logical thing - asked our family eye dr, whom I happen to also respect She *totally* surprised me by saying, yes, the claims are true - traditional eye dr exams do not test for the types of vision issues that behavioral optometrists test for, and that as long as the reason for the vision challenge is related to muscle weakness, vision therapy can be very successful. It's also respected enough that our eye insurance covers it. Soooo... with both of those things in mind, we moved forward and in our dd's case, had amazing results. The caveat from both our eye dr and our neurospcyhologist were that vision therapy is sometimes sold as the cure-all for educational challenges that are really neurological challenges, and it *doesn't* work for those challenges - so that's where it can get a bad rep. But not all kids who are struggling in school have neurological issues - our dd looked ADHD and struggled like crazy to learn to read, with signs in her oral reading that looked like dyslexia to teachers and to us as parents - but her neuropsych testing showed that she didn't have other symptoms of either ADHD or dyslexia, and a vision therapy intake evaluation revealed severe challenges that were related to weak eye muscles. She did have to go to vision therapy for over a full year and she did have to work on vision therapy exercises at home daily to see improvements, but it was by far the best investment we ever made in any therapy for her

I'm also reminded of something that also happened with our same dd - she developed a chronic medical challenge starting at around 2 years old. At first it fit a typical pathway of progression but eventually morphed beyond what her drs were used to dealing with. Thanks to the internet we had the opportunity to network with other families who were going through similar challenges, and I remember when one potential testing/treatment route was being discussed online I mentioned it as something we were interested in to our dd's dr and I was lectured (in a not-so-friendly manner lol!) that it was *NOT* proven medical science and had *NOT* been through the route of tried and true clinical testing approved by the AMA etc.. and that even if the testing started "today" it would take 20 years to get through the full evaluation before anyone would be able to for sure guarantee that it was a viable protocol. There was NO WAY this dr would condone one of her patients trying it and would never ever consider it for her own family. Everything our very well-respected dr said made good sense, but one thing nagged at me - in 20 years my dd would be grown up - and have gone through a very difficult childhood! What was the point in not trying something that wasn't going to harm her if it offered up the possibility of help? I only mention it because within 5 years, so many of the patients her drs were seeing for the same condition were suddenly also having the same challenges she did, and all of a sudden... the very same drs group who lectured me on how inappropriate it would be to try it.... were in fact... advising their patients to do parts of the very same protocol. DD's pediatrician and specialist ultimately collaborated on research into one aspect of it, they started recommending it to patients, and guess what - it really *did* help my dd. Yikes, I am getting way off on a tangent here, and I apologize... but the gist of what I'm trying to say is, we can't knock everything that hasn't been thoroughly researched *yet* or that isn't widely accepted by the medical/educational/whatever community *yet* simply because it isn't widely accepted yet. We have to be careful not to be taken in by people trying to take advantage, but we can also sometimes benefit from having an open mind

Best wishes,

polarbear