Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Kindergartener crying before school....

Hi! I'm searching for some help/insight/advice from y'all. I'm not much of a poster, but visit the website daily to read posts, etc.

A little background:

My son is in a full day kinder program at a Charter near our home. One of the Charter schools main policy that kids are ability grouped according to need, etc... and we were one of only a few children that were chosen by the lottery to attend for Kinder. SO I had high hopes for this year.

(my daughter is in a self contained gifted class at a different school that starts in 2nd grade in our district)

It started out slowly, but every night before bed and every morning before school I have tears and begging not to go, he says he HATES math at school... that he doesn't know why I can't just teach him math..and on and on.

I've had several conferences with his teacher about his strong dislike of math (which is btw his FAV subject at home)... He is currently in Kinder but in the First Grade Saxon Math group (highest level in his class).

I asked that he try the second grade math group (he could be with first graders doing math at that level instead of second graders so would be kids close to his chronological age). But was denied, his teacher gave him an end of the year second grade math assessment and he only scored around 65 percent correct. She also mentioned that she didn't know if a kinder would have the appropriate focus to sit with the older kids. I asked if there was a specific problem with my son and his ability to focus and she said that he was average with his agemates.

I then asked for different homework that was more challenging. And instead ended up with ADDITIONAL homework that he had to complete after his original homework. Also the new challenging homework is often not challenging him either. The only way that I can get him to do his homework is challenge him to a race... I pick something to do and tell him that I bet that he can't be finished before I am. Then he is quick!!! That 'trick' may work now, but I'm not confident that it will always be successful.

We just had him tested at the GDC (results are not in yet... will get them on Monday) .. but the tester did say that she "couldn't believe that he was just a kindergartener and that he was pretty amazing"...

My plan for next year is to move him to his sisters school. He can't apply for her specific program until next year but they (they being the administration and first grade teachers) seem like they are proficient in differentiation in the classroom and are willing to work with me in finding a fit for my son for next year.

There are two months left for this school year. My question is should I try and get something for him in place at his current school now, maybe having the testing will help? I'd pull him out and home school him but my husband is strongly opposed to that option. I just don't want him to lose his love of learning, his love of math that he shows at home. He'll sit for hours doing IXL math on his own... He wanted to try it after his sister had to do it for homework.

I wondered if they won't move him to a higher group (even if they caved and tried to move him... the rest of the school has math during his recess).. would it be appropriate to ask that he just do IXL math independently during math time?

So I guess my question to y'all is... what should I do about the rest of this year? Should I attempt to get something in place? Should I just let it go since we are close to the end of the year and leaving the school anyway? Should I share test results when they come?

I just want school to be a place where my children learn something! I think that should be a reasonable desire!

Seriously knowing what I know now, and living what I've lived - I'd pull him and 'homeschool' for the rest of the year. Or keep him home for a week and start looking for new schools for him to finish out the year, if you don't want him to whine to be homeschooled everytime things aren't going his way from now on.

Of course that's silly to decide now, with the report coming back on Monday. Of course you 'should' call (or better yet show up) at the school and cry your eyeballs out about how upset you are about how upset he is. Or get ready to beg on Monday that the tester call the school and 'FIX THINGS NOW.' I don't care that he got a 65 % assesment on the end of 2nd year test. Take a look at the test. It's possible that
a) he got the answers correct and was improperly graded. Not out of spite, just the human tendency to 'see' what we are sure we are going to see.
b) he got answers correct but not clearly legible.
c) he understood conceptually, but made 'careless' errors
d) he missed points for things that are simple, but he hadn't ever seen anything like before - such as 'pints/quarts' or he didn't recognize that version of the division sign, but he knows perfectly well how to divide.

What I wouldn't do is to leave him in the current situation as it. 2 months is 'forever' for a kid, and full day kindergarden is a long day to be stuck in a poor fit classroom.

It isn't normal for kindergardeners to cry in the morning before school. The school folks will care if they know and see how much this upsets you.

Let us know how Monday goes. Take good care of yourself until them.

Love andMore Love,
Grinity

I would point out the patent absurdity of denying a kindergartener a chance to study math with the first graders because he only barely passed the test for knowledge he should have acquired by the end of second grade.

And then I'd homeschool, because that's what saved my DD.

Agree that you try to work with the school first (perhaps put something in writing) but may end up pulling him soon. A lot of it depends on how flexible the school is. I hope the school is flexible but unfortunately they're not always flexible or accommodating based on my experience.

I pulled my eg/pg son last year when he was 5 years old and in pre-K after 2 1/2 months of a traditional gifted school. He was crying and begging me not to send him to school too and was having psychosomatic conditions. This year my son's at a different gifted school and while he's not crazy about the school I'm just trying to get through the remainder of the year. Next year, I plan to homeschool.

Keep a close on it because an educational mismatch can escalate those conditions (http://www.sengifted.org/archives/a...octor-fit-in-the-care-of-gifted-children).

Totally agree with Grinity - take good care of yourself. It's exhausting dealing with that kind of situation. I found it emotionally draining. Take it easy.

We are in the same situation.

Mr W just turned 4 and his reading has exploded. He is reading Magic Tree house now.

He is in an "advanced" academic PreK with older kids and they are still on letters. He is complaining of being bored and he no longer wants to go there and wants to stay at home where he can read and learn about stuff.

He wants to focus on one thing for 1-2 hours then play then focus again. He cannot do that as the class rotates every 30 min or so on things he already knows. The school does not fit his learning style nor what he wants to learn.

So, home school it is.

mara, I know this seems like an odd suggestion since there are only 2 months left in the school year, but does your DD's current school, which you are considering for next year, possibly have kindy openings, preferably with kids similar to your DS? then he will get to know some of the kids in first next year, if he goes there. Just a thought.

Also, did you tell the teacher that your son cries before school each day? that is what really struck a chord with our DS's kindy teacher, and did eventually result in our DS receiving pullout instruction in 2nd grade math with the gifted coordinator. Would the current school allow your DS to do online individualized math, like aleks or EPGY for. The rest of the year?

As for homeschooling, I think it took the psychologist who tested our kiddo to convince my DH that it was a good option. I myself was resistant to the idea because of incorrect preconceptions about what it was. we now have it always as our backup, which is a relief.

Ditto. I do wish I had homeschooled some those early years. Do you already understand your husbands concerns or can you listen very carefully find out what he's worried about?

I've never used Saxon math... but its supposed to be an incremental, spiraling curriculum with LOTS of review. This makes it great for lots of kids. It also makes it very frustrating for some gifted kids who can't tolerate the pace and repetition. If this seems to be the problem then pull-out math with Aleks or EPGY might be a better option than further acceleration with Saxon.

I don't have experience and hindsight on this but the scenario you describe is one I fear down the road. I would personally start by having my child taking a break from school, while I work at the adult level, much like what Grinity suggested. A few days out of school with some firm messaging to the principal or teacher may shake some things loose for the remainder of the year, as it really is a temporary situation. In the meanwhile your son can get to enjoy math on his terms.
The test results may or may not help, as the teacher or administration may have already dug in their heels on this. You'll know during the few days off if this is the case...

Just a word to look at the absentee rules for the school and be careful to work inside those to protect yourself. At DD's K school I called her in 3 days in a row once (she actually was sick, she was sick alot that year) and got a call from the district that she was truent. The secretary had not recorded my calls and sent them on the correct path.

When my DD was doing that, crying and begging to not want to go to school, I'd take her out a day here to give her a relief while we were still trying to fix everything (trying to work with the school).

Anyway I didn't realize but I guess I had hit the limit of her absentee days (6 for the whole year were what was allowed) and got a very nasty letter from the principal.

Luckily, the letter was on it's way in the mail after I had decided to take her out and homeschool her until further notice, and she was out free and clear and legally.

I think it's one of those things they really don't care about unless they are trying to give you a hard time, but they can throw the book at you if they want.

Interestingly enough, when I went to submit the paperwork to continue homeschooling for the next grade, that following summer, the secretary in the district was soooo mad because she had just made a bunch of copies of the form and bcause so many people from the district were submitting the paperwork to homeschool their children she had run out already!

Hmmmm....did that tell them anything?!

Just some experience to throw out at you...hopefully your situation won't get that bad!

So what percentage did he need to get right on the end of year test to study at that level, surely the point is to actually learn that year's material during the year, not start already knowing 90% of it?

If your husband is adamantly against homeschooling, have you asked him what solutions he would try? He may have ideas the two of you can discuss, and if he doesn't, you might begin a subtle campaign of making him more a part of the morning drama so he is aware of what your son is going through.

We had a bad fit one year with my youngest, and we had a lot of Yellow Bus Fever that year as well (as in the symptoms passed once the bus passed our house). Some days I insisted he go, and other days I would go sign him out for "appointments" around the time he had the subject that was creating most of the problems at school.

More homework for a 5 year old is not a good accommodation, in my opinion. And if the teacher isn't receptive to dealing with the stress your child is experiencing, I'd enlist the school counselor who will be more motivated to deal with your child's mental and emotional well being and may carry more clout with the teacher.

The advice to stay within the truancy laws is good - but within those contraints, I'd do a lot of zoo, museum, and explore days from now until the end of school. But I'd initiate them before the crying starts so that your very bright and perceptive child does not decide to use crying to manipulate.

The year my son had such a hard time, his grades were horrible. I was fretting over this until my husband pointed out that no college looks at the second grade GPA. It put it in perspective. I quit fighting the teacher and just made sure the damage to my son was minimized. The next year's placement was much better, and the Yellow Bus Fever disappeared with it.

Thanks SO much for all the responses. I've got a lot to think about and I'm going to attempt to use the quote feature and respond as soon as I get my kids off to school. Thanks!!

For the DH convincing, presenting the at-home days when the child is already crying can get you into a corner, especially if the DH is going by "theory" or logic only (Formula A: never give into a child who is asking for something no matter what they whip out...which is correct parenting under "normal" circumstances).

If the DH is never in the midst of the drama it's hard to bring them out of the theory/logic mindset. This goes for morning as well as after school before the all the decompressing and destressing efforts turn the frazzled kid into a calm and presentable child hours later when daddy comes home!

Last year on one really bad morning (really poor teacher fit last year) I walked away from her and out of the house before I had a nervous breakdown, and left him to take her to school. His concern for his daughter and responsibility did kick in when left alone with her.

He was completely shattered after this one experience and was more open to the improving-things conversations after that.

The K homeschooling wasn't as hard to convince him because of how the school people acted at meetings...very unprofessional, not worth the effort at that young of an age.

bzylzy brings up an excellent point. It's a lot easier to discount behavior/emotions you don't see/deal with first hand. I know I've situations similar with my husband where I just had to leave the kid(s) with him for a while for him to deal with so he could start to understand what I was seeing.

I had the same question about the test, if he got a 90 percent on a second grade end of the year test, then I'd probably want him in third grade math, no? And the questions he did miss on the test were a mixture of careless errors, and unfamiliar concepts (fractions and timeline)


DH has strong opinions on the no homeschooling thing, I was hoping that at the conference with the tester on Monday that she would provide that as an option and help DH towards a better understanding and less judgmental opinions. I think it will help my case that it is only for two months, that he has a potentially better fit with his sisters school in the fall.

I asked in the beginning of the year about there being space in his sisters Kinder classes but they were full at that time. I've got a meeting set up with the principal of her school to discuss his needs for first grade, and was planning to ask about it then.

So going to see what happens on Monday at our conference. And then going to really need to sit down with DH and look at our options! I'm pretty bad with confrontational situations, but for my child I'll do what I need to do!!

I have mentioned it to her, and I've mentioned that I'm worried regarding his intense feelings for math class are going to affect his love of learning, etc.. But I haven't gotten the feeling that she sees anything like that at school. I think he saves it all for me when he's at home.

I'd love for him just to get a pass on the rest of saxon first grade math, and just do independent work at a table or at the computer. For goodness sakes, I'd even go into school every day at math time and teach him math if that's what it took. I do have a degree in special education and a masters in Ed. Psych. I could handle his hour long math class. (hehe)

That's an idea I hadn't thought of. I don't even know if his school has a counselor, I'll have to check into that. There doesn't seem to be one listed on the staff page...although there is a psychologist, maybe she pulls double duty. Because in the long run, I'm not pushing and pushing to get him ahead of the other kids, or cram information into his little head. I just want him to be happy and if not HAPPY then not so miserable! If he was happy I wouldn't be pushing at this stage.

He was okay going to school today, he didn't want to but there were no tears. Of course he has pictures in the middle of math class (coincidence that he was better today?) and he's got a dr. appt in a few hours going to pull him and he knows about that.

I may go crazy before our GDC conference on Monday! Thanks again for being a place where I can vent/discuss/question. It helps so much.

Another idea for talking to your DH...could you ask him to talk about the specific reasons he is against the homeschooling? Sometimes people have a particular bias, in theory, but they could make an exception and his being specific could help you tailor a plan to ease his misgivings.

For example, with my DD, my DH just did not want her sitting home. He thought she would feel like a failure, and feel out of sync. So I signed her up for a few after-school classes to be with kids her age and learn something new...even things she wasn't learning in school like Spanish. That made DH feel more secure, and she really did learn alot! She got alot of encouragement from these after-school teachers and even continued with them the next fall. We weren't simply sliding back into pre-preK days, it was just getting her out of there but being part of society so to speak and learning continued, but in healthier environments for her.

When it came to the next grade, seeing the change in her and knowing from how the school acted and not having a decent alternative, DH was completely on board with continuing. However when we moved we agreed to try school again.

That's a whole other story, but so far it hasn't been as bad as that K year. Last year was challenging but DH was against removing her in the middle of the year, that she'd get the idea that when things get rough she quits. We got her through and she jumped up and down and was crazy happy on the last day of school.

This year has been better. It's never a perfect fit with the higher gifties and/or 2E kids but you have to go with the least worse as others have written on this board before.

The future of her education needs alot of work but we're still working on it. But having him see her at her most anxious and talking to her about what she's doing in school (not much!) rather than just breezing in and out like an upper-management level person has really helped alot.
Good luck!

I agree that this is a key step for Moms. I was guilty of 'protecting' my DH from 'the worst of it' and then blaming him for being so 'clueless.' As things got bad enough, I started the subtle campaign and got great results. A few playdates with 'regular' kids is a great way to get dads asking "Is there something wrong with X's friend?" Making Dad do the dirty deed of school drop off is a great way to get past the 'logic' and open up the feelings.

I would go so far as to say that there is only a finite amount of feeling associated with any situation. The more difficult feelings I 'volunteer' to feel and express, the less bothered my DH or DS are by any particular situation. When I start saying, 'Oh, it'll be fine soon.' that's when I get DH or DS expressing their concern. It is OK to decide if expressing feeling intensely is the best way to get to the desired result. A little playacting is allowed to break old habits that might be even less authentic than the playacting.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Update:

Had the conference today and long story short, my husband has agreed to pulling him out of his school for the remainder of the year. (yay victory!)

Their recommendation was that when he returned to school that he enter 2nd grade next year instead of 1st but first things first.. figuring out how to withdraw from school THIS year.

Thanks for the advice all... I had some questions about his results as well but will have to wait as I need to pick the kids up from school and start up the after school activity taxi.

Mara, I just sent you a PM. Also, wondering if you have any plans to meet with the school to go over the results of his testing before going through with pulling him out. (And if you do want to homeschool I can probably help point you to some resources!)

I think this is great news, the pullout victory and skipping 1st. Hurray!

We thought about doing that but felt that in the end it wasn't worth the fight. If we didn't have it in our plans to go to another school for the fall, then I would have tried to make it work first before pulling him. It seemed easier and a better fit just to pull him out for the last 31 days of school.

I'd love any and all help regarding homeschooling for my 31 day session that begins tomorrow! Yay!

Yippee for DH having a softening of the heart. Hopefull the conference helped get him 'orriented' to the new reality. Yippee for starting over as a 2nd grader next year. That gives you a target to try and reach in the next 31 school days - LOL!

Smiles,
Grinity

That was the testers rec for next year. (2nd). Still need to meet with the his sisters school and see what they have for us. That's on Friday!

This seems to be happening so fast I'm a little in shock but I know its the best thing for ds.

I think this is a very good sign. I always felt a little nervous about all the things that we requested for our DS, and skipping 1st, and then moving our DS to a GT school mid-year 2nd grade. But DH and I always knew it was the best thing to do, and that made all the difference. You know your child best - you have had him full time his whole life. I think one of the best things we showed our kiddo is that we would indeed help to fix things if the school situation wasn't right. You are showing this to your little guy too, and it's a good thing. Hope things continue to go well at Friday's meeting.