Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional LDs and district GT testing, and when to jump ship

Couple of topics here. First, public school GT testing and LDs.

DS7, in 1st grade, has recommendations for accommodations that we may be able to work into a 504 plan, although he has no formally diagnosed LD. We have dyslexia testing from three months ago that, combined with his WPPSI-III testing from nearly two years ago, determined he does not have dyslexia but that his slower processing speed affects his reading, his written output, and his ability to perform to his full potential on timed assignments. His second grade math teacher is going to work with us after spring break on getting a 504 or an IEP set up for him.

He didn't pass our district's GT test in K, and our WPPSI tester told us not to bother having him take it again till he was able to read the test on his own. She also recommended a grade skip for him if we stayed in public school.

So, DS 7 will have to take the district's GT test next year in 2nd grade, as our district screens all 2nd and 3rd graders.
I'm hopeful he'll score 98th percentile or higher on two of the tests so that we have one additional school option open to us - the HGT magnet in our district - if we want it. I'm not super optimistic he'll pass it though, as he scored lower than 50 percentile on two of the three tests in K. He scored only 94 percentile on the one that tested quantitative reasoning, but he is two to three years ahead in math concepts.

If we do get a 504, are there any accommodations for gifted testing? Our district administers the Verbal CogAT, Quantitative CogAT, and Raven's Test. The Raven's is not timed, but I believe the CogATs are. They take the top two scores from the three tests, and toss the other out. I'd assume they don't provide special accommodations because that would seem to defeat the purpose of a timed test, but I thought I'd ask if anyone knows otherwise on here as I start my research.

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Second topic, and the reason I'm hoping for better results on the GT testing next year, is how do you know when it's time to jump ship?

I get really frustrated with DS's experience every few months, look around at other schools and find they're no better, back off for a bit, and then get frustrated again. I'm in my frustrated stage now, especially after talking to DS tonight about how he hasn't found a new BF since his BF from K moved away last summer.

We talked about grade skipping tonight a bit more seriously than in the past (I brought it up) as his reading has improved enough through tutoring over the last 6 weeks that I think it's feasible. He's about a full year ahead in reading now, although still behind where he should be based on his other abilities. I'd need to look at the IAS before really moving forward, and I don't like the idea of dealing with the grade skip come middle school. However, he really prefers the kids who are one to two years older, even though he can easily devolve into the silly behavior of his age mates. I have a feeling that's not going to last too many years into the future though.

I don't know if a grade skip, or simply a different school, or just staying where we are is the answer. I came across an old Hoagie's article recently about the "steady as she drifts" philosophy, where parents are doing their gifted kids harm by saying "things could be better but they're not all that bad," and it was upsetting. I've been saying "things could be better but I can't find any place better" for two years now.

If he could do as well on the district's GT testing as he did on the WPPSI, we'd have the possibility of getting him into an HGT program where he'd be around other kids more like him and finally getting the challenge he needs throughout his entire curriculum. He's MG with a 130 FSIQ and 137 verbal subtest on the WPPSI, so he'd likely function well in our HGT program, his scores are the scores those programs are designed for. I'm not sure how that would work with his LD, if I can even call it that, since we don't have a label for it, just recommendations for accommodations. How do you decide whether to leave something that's working okay for something that may or may not be any better? We really love this school community and have a lot of friends and neighbors there. DD5 will start there in the fall, and I'm waiting to see how things work for her there too.

I've never lived in a place where we had the choice or possible opportunity for a GT program or school public or otherwise so I can't help with that.

I never saw that article. It's interesting. Not very encouraging and as you know my DD is now in 3rd, has never been accommodated for either Es of her 2Es and it's not that great however I'm not ready to jump ship yet, mostly because

1) she will pop back after decompressing or on weekends and there are non-school activites for her to do in the community where she has the chance of meeting other funky kids and having interesting adults in important positions give her positive feedback for her contributions and accepting her uniqueness.

2) academic learning does happen for her, just not in school...and I do think her teacher is helping her with the writing process. I honestly don't know what to do about the handwriting but hopefully that will come after her private evals later this spring.

3) there are no other suitable options right now for other schools, no open enrollment across districts, no charters or magnets, and I won't consider any privates until we get the more indepth testing and I can "present" her most appropriately to a new school. I don't think at this point we'll have her continue through the middle school track for this district and I have some other ideas that will develop over the next 1 1/2 years as we explore and gather info.

4) She would not accept homeschooling at this point because she loves the process of walking to school, she's making some inroads with dealing with kids who bug her (and we're heaping on the compliments for that) she's learning to self-advocate in a more smooth manner. We do take those "mental health days" when, oops, sorry, couldn't get that doctor's appointment any time except during the school day! However because we homeschooled for 1/2 of K and 1st, we continue to act like we live on 1 salary because we would not hesitate to take her out again if things sunk really far really quickly.

For knowing when to jump ship, if your child is so down that they are not eating, playing, interested in their home passions even after "decompressing" at the end of the school day or going into the weekend, things like that...that's time for some serious action. Either pulling them out and homeschooling/unschooling if you can or decent counseling, some combination...

For the gifted/LD testing for the school, can you get some articles that best help you articulate the 2E issue and just call or write to the school and ask them about accommodations etc.? Is there anything on Wrightslaw that helps you get your thoughts/questions together? Or your state's LD organization if there is one? One thing I've done is joined a local group/network for parents of kids with learning differences and they offer all sorts of workshops that you can pick and choose from. I've signed up for a "parent advocacy 101" workshop, which isn't for another 7 weeks or so but it's in enough time to start getting ready for the next grade.

I'm not happy at all with her school experience and the things she's missing by not being appropriately challenged academically at school. Often she's too tired after school for me to to any supplement during the week, so I've given up on that. But she reads her library books and she is learning ALOT. For the history, they've not learned any history at all in 3rd grade, and just some very, very basic geography earlier in the year. But they can't keep her from learning it anyway.

I'm on this all the time and there honestly isn't anything I think I could have done better so far. I'm not happy with the private assessments we had in the past because they weren't explained well. It was like "congratulations, you have a very bright child!" here is the outline to give to the school, good luck! But neither were serious enough about the peaks and valleys. I did have the sense to ask, but unfortunately the valleys are still average enough and I was laughed at (literally, the first educational psychologist laughed out loud when I asked him about learning disabilities) and the second one just looked at me like I was deranged and said "such a bright child who can learn so well DOES NOT have learning disabilities"

So what can I say...I try not to mentally beat myself up or feel too guilty. We work on things as we go but try not to focus too much on the deficits, and enjoy our family life above all else.

Good luck : - )

I'm back again because I forgot to include my take on the whole "socialization" thing.

There is socialization vs. social development and the former is what the school focuses on and is really about conforming as a form of behavior management. This is a concern and needs to be counter-acted I think through family support if you're child doesn't fit into the norm. Good social skills to have in society I think are things like writing thank-you notes, not interrupting, driving courteously, taking turns, accepting people who are different than you. This is different than dressing, thinking, and acting like everyone else and generally the "keeping up with the Jones" stuff regarding owning things and what your house and car look like.

People who are successful with "socialization" in group settings of people who are basically like them don't necessarily always display these common courtesies.


"Getting along with others" often translates to "going along with others". You can get along with others without going along with habits and thinking patterns of those around you if you do not believe they are right. However, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to "go along" at the schools and that hurts alot of things like truely fostering individual and critical thinking, combating bullying (since bullies rely on bystanders not speaking out). See above paragraph about successfully "getting along with others"...easy if you are going along with the majority. You are not creating any waves.

So, IMHO, this sort of thing needs to be monitored just as closely as the lack of academic challenges. This is part of larger societal issues but you can try and come out as unscathed as possible if you are open-minded and diligent.

I think socialization is a very important issue when talking about things like homeschooling or grade-skipping. It is more than just writing thank you notes, etc.
In the work world, IMHO, some of your success comes down to how much your work colleagues like you. It isn't just how good at your job you are. It has to do with social skills, being organized, being friendly, communicating well, etc.
I saw this at a number of prestigious universities in science. Kids (or adults) can be extremely brilliant but if they are so bizarre or off-putting, it can become difficult to work with them long-term.
With my kids, I try to always remind them how important social skills are. My little one is a social butterfly, but my older one has been a loner. I think part of it is that he is hearing-impaired. This year, he ran for and won as class representative for their student government, which we thought was just terrific.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly on the importance of being well-liked in the workplace to workplace success, I completely disagree that GenericPublicSchool makes any effort to teach that useful life skill.

To answer your questions re gifted testing and accommodations, it depends on the test and the accommodation. I don't know about the Ravens (I just don't know anything about that test, no experience). I wouldn't think they would give an extended time accommodation, for example, on an ability test such as the WISC because that's the whole point of the timed sections - to assess how well a person does at that particular ability. My ds *did* however get an accommodation on his school district CogAT testing for the gifted program - in his case, the accommodation he was given was verbal answers instead of writing them, and the tester read the questions to him, plus he had individual testing, not with a group. He was able to get accommodations for the gifted testing because he had an IEP that included those accommodations for regular classroom testing.

How is your ds in terms of where his head is at emotionally? I think the first few years of elementary school can be very tough for the parents of 2e kiddos because we've often spent those early years of our kids lives just enjoying their bright minds, seeing how creative and smart they are and never dreaming they'd have any challenges once they started school. When we find out about the challenges, first we have that to adjust our big picture to fit and that can seem kind of "must do now" at first, but the reality is we adjust, move on, find new challenges, adjust again, etc. It's going to be a long journey.

You asked "how do you know when it's time to jump ship?" I don't look at it that way - I see it more as what all parents do (with or without 2e kids) - we look forward and sometimes have to make the decision to move based on meeting our kids' needs. I get the sense from what you've written that you have two things going on - one, which is possibly at the forefront of your mind is, how do I get my kid to qualify and if he doesn't, yikes, what to do - and second, but I think more important at this point - what is the impact of the challenges he has. Sometimes with 2e kids in early elementary we have to spend more time focusing on those challenges rather than seeing the gifted side of our kids blossom, but there is a payoff for that later on because we're building the foundation that will let them fly as they get older. The GT magnet school *might* be a great place for your ds, but it might not. So you'll want to do your research eventually if your ds qualifies for it. We chose not to send our ds to our district's GT magnet because it was a very strict environment and highly focused on achievement (yet ironically, our ds probably was just as far ahead at the end of elementary having *not* gone there as most of the kids who attended it were). The teachers gave a ton of homework, and there were a lot of parents who were all about how high their kids' IQ is. When we thought about the concept of sending our EG kid there, it sounded like the right idea, extremely smart kid goes to school for extremely smart kids. But it really wasn't the right fit for our ds.

The tough part, of course, which you've asked - is how do you know what *is* the right choice to make. I think with 2e kids, it can seem like we may have to sacrifice academics that build on their strengths sometimes in early elementary while focusing on the area of challenge, as much as we don't want to. If you find that happening, please know that it's not going to be that way forever. What you're doing in elementary when you focus on those areas of challenge is to build the foundation that will later allow your child to soar.

Do you feel like you have a good understanding of your ds' challenges? You've been concerned about reading and you have had a dyslexia screening, and you know he is not dyslexic. Do you feel like you know what you need to know about his reading challenges? You've also got an early set of testing showing he has a slow processing speed relative to IQ and you mention handwriting speed etc. Do you have an official diagnosis of anything? Do you feel you need one? Do you feel you have the paperwork etc you need to advocate?

If not, I'd start there - do what you need to do to fully understand your ds' challenge, and then be sure you have as much documentation as you need to advocate for your ds. Then meet with the school to formalize accommodations through a 504. Also be sure your ds is getting any extra help he needs, for whatever reason - for example (this has nothing to do with your ds, just an example!) - does he need OT for fine motor? If so, can you get it through school? If not, can you get it privately?

Once that is all in place, then start thinking about academics and what one school offers over another.

Re having a BF move and not finding another - fwiw, our ds had one BF throughout elementary and by the time he was in 2nd grade he was starting to notice that the other kids seemed to all be branching out and finding more friends, and he wasn't. He started wondering if something was different about him (re making friends). I think it's easy (and makes sense) when you have a HG kiddo to think, hmmm.... he's not with his peers, so he would be happier if he was with older kids or he would be happier if he was in a school with intellectual peers etc. BUT... it might be something simpler or more closer-to-home than that. For our ds, it was related to how he felt about himself from being in school and not being able to keep up with writing. *If* your ds is in school all day struggling with one of the basic early elementary skill sets (and I don't know that he is so this may totally not apply!) - but if he is, it might be impacting his self-esteem in a way that in turn impacts his ability to feel like he fits in with the other kids in his grade. That's a big part of the reason I feel that in early elementary it's really important to focus on understanding the challenges our kids face and do what we can to help there - because even if you find another school such as the GT magnet that solves the issue of appropriately challenging intellectual material, without understanding and accommodating for the challenge, your child is still going to be in the same place re self-esteem and social issues etc. Not that that's an issue at all for your ds, it might not be.. just tossing it out there in case any of it sounds like it might be.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I know this thread is oldish but I have some experience with 2e and non 2e in this HG program with my twins. I'd be happy to give mmy insigt via pm if OP is still investigating.

Coll I feel your pain with the "when to jump ship" question. Last year DD was in such a horrible school situation (a multi age magnet in the neighboring city - not our home school district) for kindergarten I asked myself that question every day. Twice I went to the school with the intent of withdrawing her only to be convinced by the vice principal and/or school psychologist that they would address the issues. By the end of the year literally everyone who knew and loved DD was asking me why she was still there and telling me I needed to get her out. It was only kindergarten so I could have probably withdrawn her and not enrolled her elsewhere with no ramifications but I didn't want to set a precedent for her to think just walking out of school was an option.

We planned to enroll her in an amazing but very expensive private school for first grade that we were sure would control the anxiety that this horrible school had triggered. Then we got the results of her testing by our school district showing major 2E issues. She was labeled as "significantly learning disabled" and the district set about convincing us that she needed to be in a public school in order to have all the services she would need. Once we did the math and saw what it would cost for us to provide the ld services at the private we realized she had to be at the public school.

What we have found is an eagerness to address her ld's, an interest in containing her anxiety (along with a few bone headed moves that dramatically increased it) and absolutely no support for the gifted areas. When her anxiety was ramped up last month resulting in daily headaches we again had people urging us to pull her out of school. Home schooling, home bound tutoring, unschooling, trying the private were mentioned by everyone we spoke to. The problem with the ld's would still follow us though - we realized she needed to be in the public school to access those services. We hired an educational consultant who discussed with the director of special services for our town the possibility of both our pulling her out for a while and/or sending her for half days so she could get the special ed services.

What we did instead is ramp up the enrichment we were doing with her on our own, ask the classroom teacher a bit more forcefully for appropriate differentiation (and provided her a copy of the book "101 School Success Tools for Smart Kids with Learning Difficulties") and instituted a reward system to encourage her to change the attitude she had towards school. While not 100% I can tell you that our situation has improved dramatically.

I guess my point is that last year no matter what we would have done the school situation could not ever have been healthy for her. I don't think I will ever forgive myself for not "jumping ship." This year, though, I *think* we are on the right track. If you can access an IEP you may have the ammunition you need to have the school more effectively address his needs. Sorry but I don't know enough to hazard a guess about whether a 504 would accomplish the same thing. It really depends on the specifics of your child's needs and how the district responds to them.

Good luck - I'm sure you will find a way to make it work for him.

Thank you for the responses, I have read them all and haven't had a chance to respond between being gone for vacation and being swamped at work upon return, family in town, etc. I keep talking to other educators who feel that our school's approach to grouping by ability level for two hours out of the day and letting him accelerate for math is one of the best setups we'll find in a public school. I do plan to respond soon, and appreciate everyone's thoughts.