Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Drop in WISC-IV results?

My oldest dd was tested recently by the school on the wisc-iv and her scores dropped significantly in comparison to the scores she received 2 years with a private tester. Most notably are:

Block design went from a 15 to a 9
Comprehension from a 14 to a 9
Matrix reasoning from a 13 to a 10
Letter number sequence from a 7 to a 4

The psychologist did mention she was distracted at times by the noise in the hallway (kids).

As a result the school concludes that she has no learning disability and they refute the diagnosis of dyslexia by the Children's Hospital.

How could her scores drop so much?

How the school can conclude from a DROP in scores that there is no LD going on is really hard to swallow. How do they make that determination?

Diagnoses of LD and/or dyslexia aren't made just based upon IQ, no matter what the level of IQ is - was there other testing done to look for dyslexic symptoms?

There can be all kinds of reasons that you'd see a drop in IQ... no matter what the actual reason eventually turns up as, I would use this drop combined with the school district determination that your dd does not have an LD that was previously diagnosed as an LD by a private provider as a compelling reason to request that the district grant you an Independent Educational Evaluation - i.e., another eval usually through a private provider that the district pays for.

What's your gut feeling? Which set of scores do you feel represents your dd?

polarbear

ps - my dd7 recently went through a dyslexia screening - I suspect you have a good idea of which tests are involved based on your dd's previous testing, but if not and you would like a list, let me know, I'll be happy to post the types of screening that she was given. IQ and achievement testing were part of it, but only one piece of the overall screening.

polarbear- Would you mind posting the screening tests she was given? My DGS6 was diagnosed with what is probably accommodative dysfunction and will be getting further testing including tests for dyslexia. He has also been referred for vision therapy.
leahchris

Hi Mountainmom,

My son also had a significant drop in scores (two standard deviations) between private testing and the testing eventually done by the school psychologist after we had been raising concerns for some time. The school was quite happy to take the position that we parents must have got it wrong after all. This, however, from our department's own training material:

"For some students, the very factors that lead to their performing below potential in the classroom can also lead to their performing below potential on standardised identification measures, such as IQ tests."
"At worst a student with low academic self-efficacy will choose not to try, or to put in minimal effort, for fear of failing."
(GERRIC 2004, http://www.learningplace.com.au/deliver/content.asp?pid=31755)

Not sure if this gels with what you're seeing?

BKD

polarbear, I'd also be interested in the test info, particularly the CTOPP if that was one of them. My DD this year in the university study had 16th percentile in the two rapid naming subtests, but they don't "diagnose" and advise you to refer to the school. However the school says DD probably "refused to to that part of the subtest because she didn't like it" and kicked back the data to me. I presented it to them to initiate their own testing for possible LDs.

What doesn't make sense is that the study people loved DD. She was apparantly an excellent, cooperative participant and they invited her back for three years because they were able to get great data out of her, so I'm not sure it's a case of refusal. Their testing was under extremely controlled environments and DD had developed a good relationship with the group and really looked forward to the work.

I've never heard of accommodative dysfunction, though DD has been diagnosed with convergenct insufficiency. Something else to go and study!

We still have to wait until May for our private testing, but it's getting closer all the time.

Thanks polarbear.

LD's are defined as a specific deficit relative to one's other abilities. So someone who tests wicked smart but can barely read will be diagnosed with dyslexia. Someone who is globally delayed will not receive that specific diagnosis. It sounds like the school is trying to use the lower scores to argue that there is no specific LD.

Even further, it may be exactly the fact that the testing took place in a school setting that led to the lower scores, if your child perceives that the school considers her to be a problem kid. Google "stereotype threat" to learn more.

Not necessarily. My dd7 is wicked smart but struggles with reading - and she has other symptoms similar to what you see in people with dyslexia, but she does not have dyslexia - her reading challenge is due to a deficit in associative memory ability. Understanding what is causing the reading challenge is really important in determining how you remediate and accommodate.

The other thing to keep in mind is, in most school districts, the schools will not diagnose dyslexia. If they agree their is a reading challenge that requires individualized instruction, they will qualify a student for an IEP under the category "Specific Learning Disorder - Reading". That doesn't mean the child doesn't have dyslexia, it is just referred to differently in IEP paperwork (at least that's how it works in our school system).

I'll post the list of tests that were a part of my dd's dyslexia screening later this morning. FWIW, my dd10 had convergence insufficiency when she was younger [ she also struggled with learning to read, and had some of the same symptoms that you see in children with dyslexia. She also had a huge discrepancy in IQ testing but it wasn't due to her intellectual abilities, it was due to an inability to see. She went through a vision therapy program and it made a world of difference - within a year she progressed from 2+ years below grade level in reading to above grade level

polarbear

Hi Polarbear,

Thank you for your response, you have always been very helpful and provide great information.

She was first tested by a Children's hospital and they diagnosed her with dyslexia. They did WJ of Brief Intellectual Abilities and some achievement testing. They also did GORT, TOWRE, and one other which I don't recall the name off the top of my head but had to do with reading or phonological awareness.

The school psychologist did tell me that she was distracted by noises in the hall made by children so I wonder if that had anything to do with the differences in scores.

On her Wisc results 2 years ago, with a private tester,her strongest performances were in PRI and VCI and weak in WMI, and PSI indicating a calculation of GAI instead of FSIQ. This time with the school psychologist her PRI and VCI were much lower than 2 years ago but her WMI and PSI higher than 2 years ago. And as result this time all her scores are very similar and straight across the board average and no indication for a calculation of a GAI. So they look at both FSIQs and there is only 15 points difference between the two tests. And fwiw, her WJ Brief Intellectual Ability is very close to her first WISC results done by the private tester. I hope all this is making sense.

Aside from the WISC, the school also did a speech/language eval where she is borderline low on 3 of the tests. Meaning if she had scored 1 point lower it would be a concern for those tests. And the low scores had to do primarily with short term auditory memory. Currently she is 1 year behind in reading, her biggest difficulties being fluency and accuracy. And now she is falling behind in math, which I believe is mostly due to her difficulties in directionality, transposing of numbers, and math fluency.

They have no clue as to how to stop the reversals/transposings of letters and numbers. They tell me that kids sometimes do this even into 4th and 5th grades. And when I gave the school educational specialist a paper where my daughter had written from right to left backwards, the educational specialist couldn't even tell what she was looking at. I had to point out how my daughter wrote mice as ecim, and horse as esroh, etc. My next step is to request the IEE and perhaps we can get a full neuropsych eval.

Thanks for posting the additional info! Here's my latest set of rambling thoughts


I wonder if what they really meant was if she'd scored one point lower, she would have qualified for school district services? Just because she doesn't fall low enough to qualify for school district services (technically speaking) doesn't mean the scores aren't a concern, particularly if you're seeing difficulties with academics and if those difficulties make sense when compared to the test results... which it seems like you have happening with your dd. My ds12 who has an expressive language disorder didn't have any speech test results that came anywhere near as low as our school district cutoff, yet the discrepancy in the tests combined with his intellectual ability absolutely qualified him for an expressive language disorder diagnosis by a private SLP, and the work he's done in private speech therapy has helped him soooo so very much. So considering a private eval and possibly therapy might be worth it.

Next thing - if it's a question of qualifying for school services, 1 point above the cutoff is very very very danged close to the cutoff! You might want to consider pushing for speech services through school. The school will try to tell you they can't qualify her based on her scores, but ultimately the decision to find a child eligible for services under IDEA is supposed to be a team decision and the team can decide together that a child qualifies - the trick is how to convince the team to agree with you... in our case for our ds we were able to get an IEP for written expression where the test scores the school used to determine eligibility were not quite low enough to quailfy by showing the preponderance of evidence that he needed the services. For instance, the school had their one number showing ds was close but not low "enough" to qualify under their formula, so we showed very specific examples from his schoolwork, from informal "tests" to show ability we did at home, and we just kept showing the test results that did show his challenges - because even though he didn't quite qualify using the one-number school calculation, he clearly had other testing that showed he needed help. I suspect that you probably have that for your dd too somewhere in the various tests she had privately.


This is really interesting to me, since our dd8 whom we'd suspected of having dyslexia tested as having a challenge with associative memory - in her case auditory memory is a strength and visual memory is the challenge, but fwiw we have a long list of suggestions re how to accommodate and remediate from her private eval which we've been told will be very important to put into place in school particularly as the academic demands increase with grade level. We've just not been able to get the same type of info through school, but once we had the info, her school was willing to let us try out the suggestions at school. I've found that the memory deficit is much harder to get info about just through my own research online and in books - either I don't understand where to look, or its' not as clearly defined or well documented as the types of challenges such as dyslexia and dysgraphia etc.


I'm surprised to hear that... but I'm just a parent, not an education expert... however... just because something happens with some kids doesn't mean it's not significant in another student. So some kids may still be reversing letters into 4th/5th grade... if a child is reversing letters and is showing signs of struggling with reading etc, you have a combination of reasons to look into what's happening, as well as potential to know how to either accommodate or remediate... so when the school tells you "some kids do this until 4th or 5th grade" hold your ground, and politely but firmly point out, you aren't there to talk about all those other kids, you're at the meeting to talk about your dd's needs, and your dd is not only reversing letters, she's ____ (fill in the blank), and you have outside testing showing ____ (fill in the blank)___. Put the emphasis back on your dd and her challenges.


That's a good next step! I'll be sending you lots of good wishes that you'll be able to get a thorough and unbiased eval - good luck!

polarbear