Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Based on Woodcock-Johnson/WISC scores ACT test?

I'm so grateful to have found this forum. Thank you in advance for reading this!

DH�s PRI WISC IV 151, but unfortunately the broad math score on Woodcock-Johnson is 136. He was tested prior to starting ADHD meds mostly because I�m attempting to push for in grade acceleration. However his testing scores are so bifurcated, every section includes the phrase ��performed differentially� or �performance varied� I�d love to get into DYS just for the help advocating with the school because honestly after looking at these test results I�m at a loss as to what sort of pedagogy is going to serve him best.

I�m wondering if we should have him take the ACT explore to see if he can qualify, although I know he has to score high enough in two subject areas, and I�m not sure he will be able to in another area outside math. His highest "other" Woodcock-Johnson scores are 136 on writing fluency and 143 on reading fluency, but I don�t know if either of those will translate into the ACT Explore.

thanks for your feedback.

I think applying to DYS is a good idea. Use the IQ plus portfolio option. Sign up for the Explore as well.
(Hints: DH= dear husband, DS = dear son)

How old your son? Is he having a poor fit in all subjects or just some? How is his writing? How has being on medication affected his school performance?

When you say 'in grade acceleration' what do you mean?

Welcome!
Grinity

thanks for the reply. yes that was quite the Freudian slip there between DH and DS

I think that we will sign him up for the ACT next January. He does extremely well on standardized tests, although as I noted in my PP I'm not sure it will be well enough in an area outside of math. I don't know what we'd put in a portfolio right now. I have various achievement tests that show him performing at above grade level but not a lot of "independent" work as his school is big on worksheets.

My son is almost 8 in 2nd grade. Academically he performs fine, but he is fairly miserable This year has not been a good fit with his current teacher who is very "old fashioned" and teaches in ways that are not engaging for him.

We received the usual ADHD survey of pre and post meds and while he is doing "better" after them there are still several major areas of challenge.

By "in grade" acceleration I mean not skipping a grade as he isn't ready for that socially, but letting him stay in his age appropriate grade while doing accelerated academic work. His school already allows him to proceed at his own pace for reading. We'd like to arrange for that for next year's math as well. Ideally we'd provide the work for him (everyday math curriculum isn't really but I have a feeling it will just be getting to go at his own pace.

Sorry to hear that your DS is unhappy at school. The teacher makes such a big difference. The older grades are easier in that respect.

It's great that your school already provides him with reading at his level. Lots of schools say that they do that, and then hold the child back to some preconcieved notion of what a strong X grade reader could possibly do. My son's 4th grade teacher noted that he was reading 4 levels above what any 4th grade kid at his school had ever placed into, and that she was placing him in the top reading group with kids 4 levels behind him and giving all of them material 2 levels behind him, so that he would have a group of kids to be in reading group with. Sometimes teachers stop testing at 2 levels above grade level and report that as the child's level.

I think seeking Math that allows him to move at his own pace is a great idea. I don't see that a WJ Broad math of 136 is in any way 'bad' enough to block a kid from doing Math at his own pace. (Doesn't it make sence for all kids to do math at their own pace?) 136 is well into the gifted range and well above average. It might look bad next to 151, but that just means his potential is 'wow-wow gifted' and his output is only 'regular strongly gifted.' This is quite normal for PG kids with ADHD. It doesn't suprise me that the testing report was full of qualifications because how often does a tester get to write a report about a kid with a 151 PRI (which only vaugly corresponds to Math, BTW, it corresponds to problem solving in general - fluid knowledge, that is 'stuff you haven't been taught.')

BTW - if you want to post all his scores, we can give more insight. We see scores like 151 PRI quite frequently - such is the marvel of the Internet.

Welcome,
Grinity

By "unfortunately" - are you comparing his WJ-III Broad Math score to his WISC, or are you saying "unfortunately" because you think (or have been told) it's not high enough to accelerate him at school? Or are you looking at Davidson? Just wanted to clarify that because... 136 is actually a very good (high) score - not as high as his FSIQ but that's not unusual or probably even anything to think twice about (jmo).

What I would do if you're having a tough time using it to ask for acceleration or if you want to understand it (WJ math score) better is to look at the subtest scores that went into the broad math score - are those scores similar or are their fluctuations? I'm guessing what you might see is a lower score on the fluency section - which may only mean that your ds is not a speedy kid when it comes to writing down or thinking through answers. I can't remember the specific names of the WJ-III math subtests at the moment, but I'd expect the subtest that measures concepts would be most in line with FSIQ. And again, if a child hasn't been exposed to specific concepts that are on the test, they aren't going to know how to answer the questions on them!

Good luck with your quest for subject acceleration -

polarbear

I think AnxiousMama is saying "unfortunately" because she wants to apply to DYS, but doesn't have qualifying achievement scores.

If this is your worry, AnxiousMama, you can always try with IQ scores and a portfolio.

My kiddo was older when we found out about this stuff, but both her SAT and ACT (not explore) were higher than her Woodcock Johnson scores. I am not sure when the explore dates are, but if you have missed them, then I would suggest apply with portfolio and then if they do not accept try the explore test. My kiddo, I am pretty sure, has some dyslexia and so the longer reading passages etc. she can use her reasoning to fill in where she has mis-read a word. Plus I think the tests held her attention better due to the higher level that they are aimed at. That's not any professional opinion just some arm chair theorizing... Good Luck!

thanks everyone.

yes I meant "unfortunately" on the WJ that I couldn't just use those to submit to DYS. DS fluencies are high 143 written and 134 reading.

I learned today, from my child psych, that the WISC IV can't even be used for FSIQ due to the huge discrepancy between PRI and VCI and discrepancy within VCI (although the school calculated it anyway). DS has anxiety issues that compromised his verbal performance with a stranger she feels and she doesn't think that the VCI is accurate. She is going to go back over the WJ and the WISC for us to determine if he needs further testing or if there might be some hidden LD.

We'd do explore next year as he would be in 3rd grade then

This is the main point. Keep pressing the school to let the math go at the child's needed pace, and 'hothouse' talking to strangers. There may be more than anxiety behind that spread, so further testing seems like a good idea. Some kids get much more calm when the majority of their schoolwork is 'a good fit' to their intellectual readiness.

Lots of us Gifties tend to be anxious, and have had varying amounts of success 'making other choices' (LOL!) about how to be.

So start a topic about your favorite question regarding anxiety if you wish. We love talking!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Believe me I plan to keep pushing like no one's business. The "gap" didn't exist in his WPSSI and his WJIII ACH broad scores are fairly even (all within a few points) so I'm even more puzzled about whether he has a LD that has been masked by general intelligence.

We've done cognitive behavioral therapy with great success in most situations, but I can see him "shutting down" with an unknown tester. That is his fall back mode in one on one situations with new adults.