Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Possible WISC IV Re-Take based on EXPLORE Scores?

I realize there are other EXPLORE & DYS threads going, but didn’t want to “hijack” w/a question about my DS2, 12 yrs, Nov 1999 B-day. Still fairly green at this and I have a few questions for the amazing experts on this board. Sorry, in advance, for long post!

DS2 took EXPLORE in Feb 2012 for Duke TIP (6th grade) and his results are as follows:
English 25
Math 22
Reading 25
Science 22
Composite 24

He ran out of time on Math & Science, so he marked the last few questions with “B” or whatever in the last seconds of test. He completed English & Reading. I know very little about DYS, but believe these scores would make him eligible? However, he would still need a WISC IV score in the required range or a portfolio. “Portfolio” is a word that scares me, so I’d rather not go down that path! However, his school-administered WISC IV (given 5/2010 @ 10 years/6 mos) is below the cut-off, though I believe VCI was “just” one point below. Here are the scores:

VCI 144/99.8
PRI 117/87
GAI 134/99

I also have subtest scores, if needed.

Other parts of WISC were not administered by school psych. Test was given over a few days or weeks – DS was pulled from class at random times. Psych was actually a lovely person and DS reacted well to her, but not sure she had too much experience w/GT kids. Additionally, based on a previous post of mine, experts on this board have indicated that DS’s GAI would be 136, not 134. So I’ve always wondered about having DS retested, simply because the testing process seemed rather haphazard to me (for numerous reasons). Additionally, DS had lots of issues going on at school (now resolved) and we had a serious health issue at home (now resolved and we are so grateful for that!).

So here are my questions:
1) Would you retest WISC under these conditions, understanding that finances are tight in our household but we would do whatever is best for DS? If DYS is very good to have as a resource for students & parents, then we would pay for retest – but obviously DS might still miss the cutoff. At least we would have a comprehensive report and I’m sure that could be valuable for other things, too.

2) Since DS will be 12.5 years in May, would he really benefit much from a program like DYS or is it designed more for younger children who have years to go in the school system?

3)What general advice do you have, if any? Always open to advice!

And, as background, our Midwestern school system GT program is “OK” but nothing special and it’s not like having DYS advocacy is going to get DS anything “more” than he’s already getting (or not getting). There has been a threat to raise GT threshold to 135, but I’ve heard that kids already in program will be Grandfathered-in, so I’m not too worried about DS staying in GT.

Thanks for your thoughts on this & for reading my long post. I do appreciate it.

That's a tough one. I'd guess that given his age and grade that he's on the older end for grade. Is that correct? If so, I'd want to see the achievement piece be beyond the minimum for DYS, which his EXPLORE is.

I might, in your place, consider applying with the portfolio and what you have, but if the portfolio really isn't something you want or can pull together and you can pay for new IQ testing, I guess that I'd re-test IQ and see how it comes out before applying.

We've never applied for our one dd with DYS eligible IQ scores b/c she is 2e and doesn't have supporting achievement and getting a ltr of recommendation for her would be hard b/c she is such a chameleon, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt b/c I have no personal experience with applying.

Thanks, Cricket! DS2 is slightly on older side for 6th though (as we have learned the hard way w/DS1) most families in our district w/May-onward birthdays do not send their kiddos to school when age-eligible. Our cut-off is Sept 1 and DS has many (many!) classmates who are b-days from summer prior. This is timely, given the other thread going on this topic!

I would need to investigate the portfolio option, but DS is much more of a reader & "thinker" than do-er of anything aside from soccer, basketball, baseball & his musical instruments ;-) He has started writing a novel for his GT class activity and it's pretty darn good , IMO. But it's only in the initial stages, so doubt it's worthy of submission. For so many reasons, I'd love to have a real "read" on his IQ, but would likely need to travel a good distance to see the right person. I had decided to wait for EXPLORE scores as an indicator of whether or not re-testing was even something to consider. His testing school made such a point of stressing that DS had "barely" made the GT cut-off that I have always wondered about his true abilities on a full WISC, with a psych we could fully trust to "get" DS.

Yeah, we see that in our district as well. My take on "older for grade" is probably skewed by the fact that I looked @ your ds' bd & saw that he was just a bit more than a year younger than my dd13, who is a 9th grader, but I must remind myself that she isn't in the "right" grade for age -- lol!

IMHO, he isn't just barely gifted b/c his VCI score is pretty darn HG+. What he is is uneven if those prior scores are a good read on his true ability. His EXPLORE scores are also very high especially if he hasn't been getting significant acceleration at school, which it sounds like is the case. I'd be wondering if the prior PRI is a bit low b/c his math performance was so strong.

I suggest you call DYS and see if they will accept the 144. He was old for taking thbe test. He may have hit some ceilings and they may take that in to consideration.

Flower, thank you. It never occurred to me that anything below 145 would be accepted, but I guess it never hurts to ask. His VCI sub-test scores were Similarities 16; Vocab 19 and Comprehension 17. I have heard the term "hitting ceilings" before on this board, but I'm not sure of what that means. Does this info help?

Also, when you say he was "old" for taking the test, was that the WISC, the EXPLORE, or both? I thought the WISC goes to age 16 and he was 10 years, 6 mos when WISC was taken. For the EXPLORE, his elementary school sent home registration info right after the annual deadline, so DS was registered for that darn test for nearly 1.5 years before he actually took it! So he was at the end of the age range for EXPLORE.

DS does go up a year in math, so he is in 7th grade math and does very well with it.

No wonder you are worried about the portfolio. This isn't your one and only chance - submit what you have and be ready to do a 'process.' The 'close' IQ score will help, and I'll bet you a dollar that your standards are way way to high. Do a forum search for 'perfectionism' and read.

Smiles,
Grinity

Thanks, Grinity, and I might do that - though not sure I'd like what I read ;-) I've been keeping handy the rec for Edward Amend which you kindly gave me a while back. Would love to have Dr. Amend eval DS, but cost is a factor. Distance is another. I suppose I could take a deep breath & explore that portfolio option, see where it gets us, and then use testing as a "last resort" of sorts. I'll dig deeper into the portfolio option right now!

My daughter took the WISC when she was almost 12.6 yrs old. She hit ceilings in 6 of the 10 subsets. Some of those ceilings were as low as 12 in the subset. She never met discontinuation criteria. I think that means that she ran out of questions to be asked. I think I have read that for these kids who score high that you have to test them between 6 -8 to leave enough headroom so as not to ceiling. That is what I meant that your kiddo was "Old" for the test. The first time my kiddo was tested, she also hit ceilings but we were never informed of the limitation in the test. It was not until we had someone familiar with gifted issues look at the test results and inform us that there were ceiling scores. The other piece of information you could inquire about is if the 145 is in the confidence interval and see if DYS would accept that. I am not sure how you can determine if your scores are ceilings or not. The way I know is our second tester told us for both tests. Looking at her WISC score sheet I can not see anything that indicates ceiling other than the testers stars. Hope that helps.

Try and get the 'raw scores' you many be able to get a 'phone consult' with someone more familiar with gifted for much less than what a new test would cost. I will say that the very very high verbal and the 'well above average but' PRI is quite interesting to me, and not a split that I see often enough to even form an opinion about.

On the other hand, he is certainly gifted, no question about it. How much more will you learn from a really excellent assessment? Not sure.

Fill out the application and throw a few things together for the portfolio (video of him talking about anything that interests him 'for a time capsule' or 'grandma') - just DO it. Pretend that getting it in is a speed test. And yea, don't let your kid know what you are up to!!

Smiles,
Grinity