Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Can a social child have Dyspraxia?

I was reading through some threads and saw a discussion about dyspraxia. In so many ways this seems to define my dd. The Dyspraxia Foundation has a list of symptoms for a 7 year old:

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By 7 years old
Problems may include:

Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine
Difficulties in Physical Education lessons
Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces
Barely legible handwriting
Immature drawing and copying skills
Limited concentration and poor listening skills
Literal use of language
Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once
Slow completion of class work
Continued high levels of motor activity
Hand flapping or clapping when excited
Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional
Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork
Inability to form relationships with other children
Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares
Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick

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My DD7 is VERY, VERY social. She has great relationships with other kids and is also very verbal. She likes the routine at school but can be upset by it if a particular teacher is too rigid. I also think she has good concentration and listening skills. Otherwise this list desribes her very well. (The description of younger children was also very close other than the fact that she LOVED creative and imaginative play, was always very social and had no problems with verbal instructions.) She has always been very comfortable with adults but has always eagerly sought out kids as playmates.

No one has mentioned Dypaxia as a possibility yet but I am wondering if it is worth considering. Are the social and verbal aspects an intregral part? I don't really understand the connection to a movement/coordination disorder.

We will have to have her neuropsych eval redone in a few month since the first one was considered invalid. Is this where I would raise the question or should I ask about it at my next meeting at school? She is already in take out for reading, OT, speech and anxiety. We are trying to get the migraines under control and have no answer yet on the possible seizure disrder. We are also seeing an orthodontist this afternoon because her dentist thinks a dental issue may be at the root of the headaches.

I HATE the idea of adding yet another thing to the list of issues but if it is a real possibility it needs to be explored - right?

Please wise members of the forum please tell me if what I have described to you over the past few months looks like it could be dyspraxia. Or can I rule it out as a possibility because of the social, verbal or other aspects. Would an OT have picked up on this or is it a "specialty" diagnosis?

Thanks in advance for all input.

I have to say, those are all kind of nonspecific symptoms in that list of dyspraxia. My son has some of those yet he doesn't have dyspraxia! Alot of boys (or even girls, frankly) have "slow completion of class work"- that is half of my son's third grade class!
I would say if you have a child with some of these issues, consider trying to get them into a sport, karate, etc.

Hi Pemberley,
I'm exactly where you are with my DD8 and I think these kids can be very social. Mine is very gregarious, though she does better with kids who are 2-3 years older but that might just be the intellectual/verbal skills are a better match. Also the issues she has with sequencing seem to hurt her in social situations.

It's really hard when your child is very bright and has LD issues, it can be so murky. The latest SENG webinar is going to be about working out the details of gifted and LD.

These LDs are so specialized and some of the indicators overlap. I know that to diagnose dyslexia for example the testing has to be very thorough and careful. If an OT didn't pick up on dypraxia I wouldn't think that would be reason to doubt. The training and experience of each one is so different. Feedback for my DD has been so incredibly "all over the place" over the years, it's so confusing.

My DD's current teacher does not accept any LD ideas (mainly the point being DD stays on target with her grade level), but she'll say things about how literal DD is (to the extend that it hurts her socially and with scoring on word problems and comprehension tests) and that she doesn't seem to "get" metaphors. Also when you see DD's work hanging in the hallway next to her classmate's it is plain as day that she doesn't have average "output".

I am pretty secure via reputation about the person who is going to be doing DD's new testing but I'm still reading alot and noting any feedback from school or things I see to offer, for him to gain as clear as a picture as he can. And for me too, since the better I can understand DD the more caring and appropriate parenting I can give her.

I don't find this list particularly useful, as some of these symptoms can also be signs of being gifted, some others are signs of being 7, and the remainder can be signs of something completely unrelated to dyspraxia.

I dont' know too much about Dyspraxia, except that my son was treated for it by an OT. I always thought it was a sort of OT thing.
'Problems with planning motor skills' and
'it's natural for most kids to learn to move their bodies by watching others without any thought - just the opposite for your kid' and
'once the behavior becomes automatic, it's just as good as for any other kid, but the process of getting the behavior to become automatic - well, that's very unusually difficult for your child.'
are how I think of it.

My guess is that being a social kid has (at least) two components -
1) The motivation to be social with other children
2) Being good at learning, and then doing, what works well when trying to be social with other kids.

I can see that poor motor planning would get in the way of #2 in all sorts of ways. Like adults, kids probably unconsiously mirror the body language of others as a way to fit in. Kids complained in 2nd grade that my son didn't smile, and his face wasn't expressive. Some kids 'know' how hard to push and when to back down. In elementary school, my son appeared not to be recieving those social signal, and also not particularly motivated to head them. Tone of voice requires muscles to be controled, and if one hasn't internalized what it takes to add color to speech, then it's going to be more difficult to interpret that color in other peoples speech. Sarcasm came before he caught on to other people's sarcasm.

My son was a social kid in the sense of the first component, and sort of average in the second component. Was he using his great motivation and his PG intelligence to compensate for his difficulties in the second area? I'll bet. Since we had no idea about how unusual his strengths were back then we had no way to know.

Here's our list -

Yes - on a behavior plan in 1st grade - Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine

Yes -Difficulties in Physical Education lessons

Very Very Yes -Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces

Yes - Barely legible handwriting

Yes - except he was so perfectionistic that he outright refused to do these - Immature drawing and copying skills

Some said yes, some said no, he did eventually get a diagnosis of ADHD-I - Limited concentration and poor listening skills

No - Literal use of language

Huh? You can give 7 year olds 3 instructions at once? I'd be happy to have 1 instruction obeyed. In fact, if I am in a hurry, I must fein relaxation to get DS to do anything. So that means 1 instruction plus a feeling is too overwhelming! - Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once

No -Slow completion of class work

School thought he ways hyperactive, no doubt about it. - Continued high levels of motor activity

No - Hand flapping or clapping when excited

Compared to what, any of my family members? No. Oh, compared to agemates. Ok - Yes! -Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional

LOL yes! - Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork

Strong No -Inability to form relationships with other children

LOL again. Strong yes! -Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares

Not at home, but at school, Yes! The school nurse was one of his best friends. Ug! Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick.

The OT helps with a lot of this. The book, Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook, helps with a lot of this also. Medication for ADHD-I has been a big help. Time was a great help. 2nd grade was the worst year, and having a teacher who got how smart he was, but didn't know that gifted kids could be behind in other ways sure didn't help.

She slipped in one of our many many meetings and said,with passion "If only he tried, this is baby stuff" and then choked off the words 'baby' stuff. So there is was, an admission that the work was way below what he needed intellectually and an admission that she saw his lack of output as a character flaw issue rather than a disability.

Did he internalize the idea that he was lazy and didn't try hard enough? You bet. Did he internalize that he was 'broken' - you bet. Did we overcome all of it eventually? Absolutely. But it wasn't something I'd want to do again. Being informed and surrounded by support is much better.

Well, that's my story, that's what keeps me hanging around and trying my best to make it easier for other families.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

If you suspect something, get her professionally evaluated. The sooner you catch a disability, the better the treatment works. Dyspraxia looks different with every child, especially with a gifted child.

Both my son and husband have mild dyspraxia.
My husband was an athlete and popular throughout school (ASB President of his High School). My son also has a lot of friends and is well-liked. They are both highly verbal and not literal. So no problems in those areas. They struggle with handwriting and other things though.

So, dyspraxia looks different in each person, you know?
Like many conditions, the symptoms vary, but the underlying neurology is the same.

That's what we are dealing with right now. ~~sigh~~

Our list:

Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces -- yep
Barely legible handwriting -- yep
Immature drawing and copying skills -- they are age level, but it's difficult for him
Limited concentration and poor listening skills -- sometimes
Slow completion of class work -- if writing is involved, yes
Continued high levels of motor activity -- yes
Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork -- yes!!

My son is 3.5yo, so some of this stuff is age-appropriate, but the difference is...he needs therapy to keep up with his peers because it is more difficult for him. Luckily, we caught it early and it shouldn't be a problem in the future.

The way his OT explained it....
His brain is going so fast, his body has trouble keeping up

also

It's like watching TV with the sound 30 seconds behind

Because of his highly asynchronous development, his brain is not developing in sync with his body, so some of the messages get lost. He is compensating with high intelligence and natural athletic ability, so it's not as noticeable as it could be.

Every time he has a growth spurt, we hope that his brain will stop developing and give his body time to catch up!

The OT did say that socially, DS isn't able to pick up as many social cues as other children his age. A lot of sensory information gets lost--that is part of dyspraxia.

From what I can tell, DS does have difficulties being aware of all the body language (like Grinity mentioned), but he compensates with a lot of empathy, an overall happy personality, amazing verbal skills, and a well-developed sense of humor. He likes to make others laugh and smile (including his parents) so that is offsetting the dyspraxia enough to keep him well-liked. It's funny to see because he does make social mistakes, but then he recovers them with a funny joke or a big smile. Kids are pretty forgiving at this age. That may change though.

My husband doesn't have any problems socially, and is well-liked...so YMMV.

Ditto! FWIW, my ds has dyspraxia, but is also a very people-oriented and extroverted person. He has some struggles in social situations but not enough for anyone to really notice.

Our neuropsych has a diagram that was helpful to me as we went went through the process of understanding our ds' diagnosis - I think there's a copy of it somewhere online. It has three intersecting circles - basically a Venn diagram showing the overlap and division of symptoms of disorders in the autism spectrum vs disorders similar to dyspraxia vs (I think) psychiatric disorders. There are many shared symptoms! That's why it's so important to have a thorough eval by a competent professional that you trust is seeing your whole child.

I've gotta run drop my kids off at school but will come back later and fill in where my ds fits under the list of symptoms above. To be honest, it seems like a broader list than I usually see for dyspraxia, so I'm curious where you found it?

Best wishes,

polarbear

Hi,

My DS7 has dyspraxia. His OT considers it "pure" dyspraxia (not associated with other LDs or issues). As others have said, the list you posted sounds too general for simple dyspraxia. Other diagnoses (AS, ADHD for example) can have dyspraxia as one symptom. But dyspraxia can exist by itself too.

My son's problems are primarily with physical coordination (both gross and fine motor skills and muscle tone, so sports, handwriting, dressing, eating, drawing, and speech are affected). He is very social and not a literal thinker. He doesn't have problems with concentration, arousal state or focus (as compared to his ADHD brother).


From what I understand, dyspraxia is just another way of saying "un-coordinated". The more modern name for it here in Canada is "developmental coordination disorder".

http://dcd.canchild.ca/en/AboutDCD/earlyindicators.asp

This list really sounds more like a description of Asperger's or NVLD (which frequently have dyspraxia as one component) than pure dyspraxia, and the difficulties with social relationships, literal language, attention, and auditory processing (and hand flapping!) are the parts that are most characteristic of those other syndromes. Pull those out of the list and you have something resembling "pure" dyspraxia.

Interesting!

I thought my son was autistic when he was a younger because of his early interest in letters and reading (hyperlexia). His pediatrician wouldn't even consider it. His preschool teacher said that he was too social and interactive (she has a high- functioning autistic son). The only unusual thing she noticed was that he wasn't crossing the midline as much as other kids. That was my first clue that something was off.

My son's OT treats a lot of autistic kids. We see them in the waiting room. A lot of them are *extremely* bright. One little boy has apraxia too, so he uses a computer to speak. He is a brilliantly smart boy, but he can't make his mouth make the sounds. I can't even imagine how frustrating that would be. :'(

Thanks everyone for the responses. It is particularly helpful to see the lists of yes/no for symptoms on the list for kids who have the diagnosis. I got the list from the dyspraxia foundation website (a UK site.). Here's the link http://www.dyspraxiafoundation.org.uk/services/gu_symptoms.php

Here is the complete list of symptoms that they provide for younger kids too:

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The symptoms
By 3 years old
Symptoms are evident from an early age. Babies are usually irritable from birth and may exhibit significant feeding problems.

They are slow to achieve expected developmental milestones. For example, by the age of eight months they still may not sit independently.

Many children with dyspraxia fail to go through the crawling stages, preferring to 'bottom shuffle' and then walk. They usually avoid tasks which require good manual dexterity.



Pre-school children - 3 to 5 year olds
If dyspraxia is not identified, problems can persist and affect the childís life at school. Increasing frustration and lowering of self-esteem can result.

Children with dyspraxia may demonstrate some of these types of behaviour:

Very high levels of motor activity, including feet swinging and tapping when seated, hand-clapping or twisting. Unable to stay still
High levels of excitability, with a loud/shrill voice
May be easily distressed and prone to temper tantrums
May constantly bump into objects and fall over
Hands flap when running
Difficulty with pedalling a tricycle or similar toy
Lack of any sense of danger (jumping from heights etc)
Continued messy eating. May prefer to eat with their fingers, frequently spill drinks
Avoidance of constructional toys, such as jigsaws or building blocks
Poor fine motor skills. Difficulty in holding a pencil or using scissors. Drawings may appear immature
Lack of imaginative play. May show little interest in ëdressing upí or in playing appropriately in a home corner or wendy house
Limited creative play
Isolation within the peer group. Rejected by peers, children may prefer adult company
Laterality (left- or right-handedness) still not established
Persistent language difficulties
Sensitive to sensory stimulation, including high levels of noise, tactile defensiveness, wearing new clothes
Limited response to verbal instruction. May be slow to respond and have problems with comprehension
Limited concentration. Tasks are often left unfinished

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As for DD here is her yes/no list for age 7:

1. Not really, unless a teacher is too strict or "scary". Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine

2. Yes. Difficulties in Physical Education lessons

3. BIG yes! Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces

4. BIG BIG yes!!! Barely legible handwriting (actually not legible at all)

5. BIG yes! Immature drawing and copying skills

6. No. Limited concentration and poor listening skills

7. No. Literal use of language

8. Not usually a problem but can be occasionally. Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once

9. Yes. Slow completion of class work

10. Sometimes. Continued high levels of motor activity

11. Clapping but I always thought of it as part of her enthusiastic personality. Hand flapping or clapping when excited

12. BIG yes! Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional

13. What knife and fork? She prefers her hands but will use a fork when forced too. It usually ends with her asking one of us to help her or a "Will you please feed me?" Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork

14. Big No. Inability to form relationships with other children

15. Yes but better in recent months. Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares

16. BIG BIG YES!!! Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick

As for the earlier symptoms she was most definitely a high needs baby with sleep and feeding issues but she achieved her milestones well ahead of schedule.(Except that she refused to let go and just cruised for months and months before deciding to walk on her own shortly after her 1st birthday.) She never developed a "normal" crawl - instead crawling with one leg while walking with the other. For the preschool list we really didn't have many issues with tantrums but of course there were some. She LOVED imaginative play and dress up and was always great at making friends with other children. She was also always strong with language and comprehension and was also clearly right handed. It was very cute as a preschooler watching her respond to social cues – she was so in tune that anytime an adult knelt down to talk to her she also knelt down to talk to them.

I am confused about whether dyspraxia would encompass dysgraphia or be an additional issue. When I sent Dr. Beljan some of DD's writing samples after a phone consult he said "The writing is obviously dysgraphic and the spelling looks dyslexic." Would looking at dyspraxia be in addition to this or would it be likely to replace the dysgraphia? When she was in the hospital for her 48 hour EEG the admitting diagnosis from the neurologist said “Uneven development profile” which again sounds like it could include this possibility.

As I look through this list with all it's BIG YES answers it sure looks like a possibility - especially with so many of you saying the social stuff is not required. So do I wait for her new neuropsych eval or is there a way to investigate this through the school?

It could be dyspraxia. I would definitely look into it.

So, I looked at the list.
The only items that fit DS are the messy eating, and not wanting to write/draw because it's difficult. His fine motor skills are actually on par with peers, so it's more about his perfectionism and dyspraxia making it more difficult for him.

Other things like having high energy, being intense, having sensitivities to sensations, being ambidextrous, preferring adult company are all highly gifted traits.

Many of the things on the list don't fit. He is the most imaginative child I have ever met, so that definitely doesn't fit.

Also, realize, that DS has a very mild form of dyspraxia. So mild, it will probably work itself out with therapy. Because it is so mild, the teachers have a hard time "seeing it." sigh.

Pemberley, here's the 7 year old list for my ds:

By 7 years old
Problems may include:

Difficulties in adapting to a structured school routine - yes, but he didn't act out in an obvious way, instead he was very quietly anxious and upset

Difficulties in Physical Education lessons - not obvious to us at that point, but he moved very slowly, didn't get excited about PE class, and appeared to be inclined to be a couch potato (the difficulties with PE lessons have become much more obvious as he's gotten older).

Slow at dressing. Unable to tie shoe laces YES YES YES. When he was around 7, he fought getting dressed a lot too. He didn't learn how to tie his shoelaces until he was 9, and then forgot again during Christmas vacation when he didn't wear his tie shoes for a few weeks.

Barely legible handwriting - you could read our ds' handwriting, but his teacher said it was one of the "2 or 3" least legible in his 2nd grade class. He also hadn't stopped reversing letters or learned punctuation, mixed up caps vs lower case, spacing was very uneven, words didn't follow lines on paper, and his spelling was horrible.

Immature drawing and copying skills - ds is actually very good talented at drawing, and this isn't unheard of in dysgraphic kids - drawing uses a different skill set than handwriting. He absolutely had problems copying written work, still does, and according to his neuropsych most likely always will.

Limited concentration and poor listening skills - NO

Literal use of language - yes

Inability to remember more than two or three instructions at once - Absolutely NO! But I have a non-dysgraphic dd who can't remember 1/2 an instruction on a good day, and apparently has no LD whatsoever

Slow completion of class work - yes in K/1, by 2nd grade for the most part he wasn't even starting school work.

Continued high levels of motor activity - Absolutely NOT. He's SLOW. Really slow!

Hand flapping or clapping when excited - no. FWIW, my older dd hand-flapped for awhile when she was around 4-5 years old. She's the dd with no known LD or anything else that remotely resembles a diagnosis

Tendency to become easily distressed and emotional - YES. Still true. Don't ask me about my day today!

Problems with co-ordinating a knife and fork - yes.

Inability to form relationships with other children - somewhat. He had 2 close friends that he met in Kindergarten that he kept throughout most of elementary school, but as most of the kids started branching out and making new friends as they got older in elementary, ds had a tough time making other close friends. This wasn't because other kids didn't like him - other kids have always liked him a lot. I think for ds it was related to his expressive language disorder, which I don't think is related to dyspraxia (but I could be wrong on that!). This year when he switched schools for 6th grade, he had no problem making new friends and right away found a good friend to pal around with.

Sleeping difficulties, including wakefulness at night and nightmares - Nightmares were never an issue, but when he did wake up in the middle of the night at 7 he would be easily scared by household sounds like someone walking across the floor or the furnace creaking etc. He also never needed much sleep. He continued to predictably wake up in the middle of the night up until he was around 6 years old, and he still goes through periods where he wakes up in the middle of the night. He's always stayed up late and wakes up early in the morning.

Reporting of physical symptoms, such as migraine, headaches, feeling sick - when he was 6 he went through a long spell of stomachaches which his ped said was actually the way migraines often present in young children. We eventually figured out it was related to stress and anxiety.

DS also became an extremely picky eater starting at around 6-7 years old, and I think that *is* related to his dyspraxia. Prior to that he used to eat just about anything, and he's starting to branch out a little bit more now at 12 years old, but he feels full very soon after he starts eating so he has a hard time eating enough at any meal to last very long.

polarbear