Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional I'm back and could use your insights again

HI everyone, I haven't posted in a couple of months due to life craziness, but I was wondering if I could trouble you all for your ideas/suggestions on how to address my DS8's situation.

I posted a while back about his sensory and fine motor issues, which he is getting OT privately for. He is at the top of his class (2nd grade) and is being evaluated for the GT program. I am worried, though, that he will not get accepted because he totally blew the CogATs, didn't even answer 10 of the quant questions for some reason. So who knows what will happen there.

My biggest concern right now is his handwriting, which has been a challenge for him. His writing is beautiful now, but his OT says it is too slow for his age. She chalks it up partly to him trying to make it perfect and has been trying to get him to worry less about that and just make it legible in order to speed up. I had a conference with his teacher yesterday though, who gave me a "messy" example of his writing to demonstrate that sometimes he doesn't put forth his best effort when she knows that he can (because it is usually beautiful). This was before I brought up any issues about writing. When I told her what the OT said, she was surprised and didn't think he had any issues with handwriting and when it was messy she attributed that to occasional laziness basically. She acknowledged that he has zero trouble with the concepts, he knows WHAT to write, just doesn't always want to spend the time to physically do it sometimes. She says it doesn't take him longer than other kids to do the assignments and kind of politely dismissed the idea that there might be a problem.

So two things: first, I feel like he's getting mixed messages, the OT says speed up it doesn't have to be perfect, but his teacher does implicitly seem to expect it to be fairly close to perfect (although, to be fair, the messy example was illegible not just a little messy). Second, I'm thinking, well maybe it takes the same amount of time for him to do the assignment as the other kids, but he is spending MOST of that time concentrating on the writing itself because he doesn't NEED to spend as much time figuring out what to write because that comes faster for him, KWIM? So his intelligence is masking his handwriting issues at school? And if that's true, what do I do about it? Especially if the teacher and the school don't recognize a problem even though the OT sees it? In our schools, you don't qualify for OT or other such assistance unless you are working two grade levels below, so he will never get formal assistance at school.

And then, part of me thinks that maybe the teacher is right and there isn't a problem and I am just making this all up in my head. We have been unable to have him privately tested yet due to the costs of finding someone who has the appropriate knowledge/experience with 2E. I feel like his motor skill and sensory issues impact his life significantly, but these things are often not recognized by others so sometimes you just feel like you're making it all up, you know?

I could write more, but I will stop here. I would love any advice you have or similar experiences you have to share. I really value the opinions of people on this board. And it is nice to feel a little less alone.

The first clue that my verbally gifted DD12 had something like a 2e situation going on was her Cogat score -- 99+ nonverbal, 98 verbal and 67 quantitative. Her low score on quantitative was due mostly to the time factor on this subsection. Fortunately her combined score was still high enough for our GT program that only used Cogat at the time for an aptitude score and does not accept outside testing. After much testing and $$$$s the only thing that truly showed us her suspected dysgraphia was the Beery VMI testing done by the OT. I wonder, is this a test your DS has already been given as part of his OT work-up?

We still do not have a formal "diagnosis" of either dysgraphia or a LD of written expression, but we have recently (after 4 years of trying to figure out her bottle-neck) been successful in getting her a 504 plan that includes extended testing time due to her very low hand-eye coordination issues. My understanding is that she would have to be given her 504 accommodations on any future Cogat that she has to take. We expect that with extended time her quantitative scores will increase.

Good luck in advocating for your son!

Thanks RevMom, I am going to ask the OT if she has given him that test. The other part of the story that I didn't add in to my original post is that I am also concerned that his sensory issues may include some visual and auditory elements. I am going to have him evaluated for CAPD soon, which I wonder may have affected his CogAT performance because the teacher reads the questions to them. And if he didn't hear the question, I don't think he could ask for it to be repeated (and even if he could, I don't think he would!). And, although his reading level is significantly above grade level, he does not have alot of stamina when he reads. The OT is working on him with that too, because visual therapy is just not something we can afford right now. So, it all leaves me wondering how much these things affect his output and worry that at some point, if we don't address them, he will just shut down and just skate by, which he easily could.

First piece of advice - re CogAT - our ds is one of the EG kids who did *not* do well on the CogAT. His scores were way below what he has scored on the WISC and WJ-III Test of Cog Abilities, and he had accommodations of extended time plus verbal answers - from what I understand he just thought a bit too outside the box on most of the questions. Our school district also uses CogAT for GT program screening, but we successfully argued that the CogAT wasn't representative of his ability based. If you're told by the district that the CogAT is a problem for your ds - let us know what other types of testing your ds has had/rough scores etc, and we can try to help you with thinking through how to advocate for your ds. If it was me, I wouldn't ask to retake the CogAT with accommodations - I'm just so leery of the CogAT altogether!

Re the handwriting - my ds has dysgraphia so I'm coming from the perspective of parenting a high IQ child who has a handwriting disability. Some of what you wrote about your son *might* indicate dysgraphia, but it sounds like the OT who's worked with him isn't thinking it's dysgraphia. So the first thing I'd do is google dysgraphia symptoms and see if anything besides what you've written here fits your ds (does he reverse letters, have trouble with capitalization, is spacing oddly squished or spaced out, can he write on the lines or does his writing float etc). Also look for the following when your ds writes: does he sit with odd posture, does he get really close to his paper to look at what he's writing, does he grip his wrist or elbow or hold the arm he writes with, does he have an odd pencil grip, does he look like he's working extra hard at focusing with his eyes as he writes? Things like that. Also ask your ds if his hand gets tired or if his hand starts to hurt when he writes. How long can he write before he starts getting tired? Does he have any problems when he copies? Does he avoid or complain about schoolwork that you think should be easy but involves handwriting? Putting notes about all this together will help you both with thinking through - does he have dysgraphia - plus it will help you in advocating for him at school.

The next thing I'd do is to have your OT put in writing *right now* what your ds' handwriting speed (letters per minute is) and if she will do it, also have her put in writing what she expects a child's handwriting speed to be at the grade level your ds is in and what grade level his current handwriting speed is at.

I would worry less about the mixed messages from teacher/OT at the moment and instead try to get at the root of what is really going on with your ds - is it truly just not trying, is it perfectionism, or does he have some type of challenge with handwriting. You can request an eval through the school, whether or not your ds will ever qualify for school-based OT. You need to be specific in the request - and I don't have time to think through right now the specifics of what you need to be specific about - yikes. How's that for non-advice? Sorry, my brain's a little bit sleepy this morning

Like revmom, my ds had a discrepancy in his Beery VMI test. There were also clues in his ability vs achievement testing that was done first through the neuropsych and later repeated at school. The school psych did *not* give a diagnosis or any kind of interpretation that indicated dysgraphia - our school instead spent a lot of time and effort arguing that there wasn't a problem. I had quite a bit of the same information in the school's testing but they weren't going to point it out - I had to know how to look for it. In our ds' case, his scores on fluency tests were very VERY low compared to his scores on things like comprehension etc. The school just gave us a list of his scores, but when I grouped the various achievement test scores based on which tests required verbal answers, which tests required handwritten answers, and which tests were timed vs untimed, the test scores all fell into very obvious patterns indicating that handwriting was at the root of the difference in scores.

Best wishes,

polarbear

This sounds like exactly what is going on, and it some ways that's sort of good, because at least he isn't bored and causing an uproar that he might if he finished at the speed his minds goes at and had a lot of time on his hands. sort of.

What to do about it? Teach him to keyboard properly (fingers only, no eyes) - My son learned at age 9. I introduced it earlier, in spurts, starting around age 7 I think, with Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing, because he felt patronized by Sponge Bob and similar 'kids' programs.

Meanwhile, yes, he is getting mixed messages from the OT and the teacher. I would let the OT know, and discuss with her how to phrase it - perhaps there is some favorite character in a book, movie or video game who 'levels up' to get two skill sets, and like this character, your DS needs to be able to do both.

My son had a diagnosis of dyspraxia, planning of movements and co-ordination as a result of brain messages not being accurately transmitted to the body, according to Wikipedia. For him, getting to automatisity in his movements was quite the struggle, but once he got there things were good. When he was in 3rd grade the difference between other kid's handwriting and his was very large, not on the rough draft, but on the 'neat copy' that other kids were able to produce, while my son's neat copy looked exactly like his rough draft. Our OT worked on other things, and laughted at me when I suggested that he could use some work on handwriting - demonstrating her own crazy pencil grip. A nice lady, and helped a lot in some ways, but I didn't like being laughted at. ((shrug)) Any way, I sporadically did 5 minutes sessions with the printing books from Handwriting without tears, and their 'Print Tool' finally convinsed him to leave spaces between words and keep the letters a uniform size. It's as if with the Print Tool's info, my son could approach his handwriting from an intellectual viewpoint. One day in 7th grade, the teacher was teaching how to take notes, and DS, after a year of keyboarding, brought home a beautiful paper.

Weird, huh?

Anyway, I don't expect the classroom teacher to change, so I don't have any suggestions on that part. Just try and appreciate the postives.

((shrugs and more shrugs))
Grinity

Thank you polarbear and Grinity! I forgot how to do those cool quote boxes, so I am just going to respond to each of your posts here.

polarbear, I actually do not think he has disgraphia. I think the handwriting issues are just part of the delayed fine motor skill level that he is working on (he also has been working on shoe tying, buttoning/zipping pants, etc.). So hopefully with the therapy we can get him caught up eventually. As I think about it more, I think the perfectionism is playing a big role in it. I also kind of wonder if it is a way of entertaining himself to avoid boredom. His writing is sometimes so perfect it is almost like he is creating a work of art. As Grinity says, I guess I should be happy that this is how he chooses to alleviate his boredom. lol It just seems like he is burning alot of time and energy on this that could be put to some better use.

Grinity, great idea to work on the keyboarding. That would answer some of my concerns about how this slow handwriting speed might be hindering him, which is that he might not write something or skip some elements of something he wants to write because the effort is just is too much. Or, as the therapist pointed out, someday he is going to have to take notes on teacher's lectures and he needs to be able to keep up.

You make a good point, too, Grinity, that I shouldn't necessarily expect the teacher to change, but perhaps focus more on helping him understand that the expectations may be different in different situations. And I also don't want to alienate the teacher because she has been great with him overall, especially given some of his sensory seeking behaviors.

Big thanks to you all for your insights!

And polarbear, I would be interested in hearing how you advocated for your ds regarding his CogAT scores because that is the next thing I want to address with the school. I do believe that he is also the "out of the box" thinker and that his CogAT scores may have more to do with that than the sensory issues. I don't have any IQ testing for him, unfortunately we just can't afford it right now. He took the ITBS for the achievement piece of the GT screening but we don't have the scores from that yet. Our school doesn't do MAP testing or anything like that either, unfortunately.

I guess I am not sure how to address this with the school, because I feel like I just sound like that mom who can't accept her kid's ability level. But I really don't feel like his scores or profile matches what I know about him and what I see him do. I don't really know his LOG, but his CogAT quant percentile was 57% and he consistently scores at the top of all district assessments and tests "secure" on all concepts introduced in class even the ones that they are not expected to be secure on yet. He usually picks up on new concepts very quickly and doesn't need alot of repetition to get it down. I also think his reasoning skills are quite good. He is always pointing out things that I never thought about or highlighting the weak points in arguments and explanations. A recent example: at the doctor's office there is a poster for the whooping cough vaccine and he asked me about whooping cough and how you get it. I explained that you catch it from germs just like we do a cold so we get it from someone else who has it. And he said, "no, I know that, I mean where did it come from? Someone had to get it first before it could be passed on to someone else. How did they get it?" ( I still don't really have a good answer to this question, even after googling it!) But I don't know, maybe most kids ask questions like this? Does someone with average quantitative and non verbal ability play chess in kindergarten? To me someone with low ability scores and high achievement would be the kids who work really hard and practice alot, which he is not. He thinks he should be able to do everything perfectly the first time, before he has even been taught the concepts, etc. And, honestly, for most things at school this is true.

Sorry, this has become more of a rant than I intended. This is also why I have not yet brought the subject of the CogATs up at school because I want to approach the issue the right way and ranting like this is probably not the way to go. lol So I would love to hear more about your experiences with this, polarbear!

I'm dysgraphic as heck (not nearly as bad as my son, but still pretty bad), and I took up calligraphy as a hobby as a child, partly because I loved words and wanted to make them beautiful, but also because I thought that it might help me with my handwriting.

It turns out that, since I'm a half-way decent artist, I can draw letters beautifully, and if my handwriting needs to be legible, this is what I do. It takes me about five times as long to draw letters as it takes other people to write them, but if what I am writing is short enough to hold in my working memory, short enough that I don't get fatigued, and if I have no time pressure, I can usually produce very clear output that makes people marvel at my lovely printing skills.

Of course, I can't do this if I simultaneously have to seriously think about composing what I am writing. In those situations, I either need a word processor, in which case I am fine, because I can easily go back and proof out all the motor errors that are sure to happen, or what will show up on the paper is a sloppy, illegible mess with poorly formed and sometimes indecipherable letters, letters and words out of order, omitted letters and words, orientation substitutions (d, g, q, b, p, etc.), and, seven out of ten times, poorly organized arguments, because trying to think about putting words and ideas together and trying to think about how to get them on the paper simultaneously is just more than my hands and brain can get together to accomplish at one time.

It is possible that what you see with your child is all motor delay, but I wouldn't be too quick to rule out dysgraphia. If you have inconsistent written work samples in class, I might consider asking the school to evaluate for dysgraphia or other hidden disabilities that could be affecting his ability to produce quality work in some circumstances and not others. The OT's report mentioned above about his writing speed should be considered as part of the information used to make this determination. Usually the school will also do IQ and achievement testing to find out the current level of academic functioning, and other, more specific tests to look at areas with suspected deficits.

polarbear -- sorry to hijack this thread, but I was wondering where you got that information as to which tests required verbal versus handwritten answers? I would like to look at my child's testing with that informatin in mind.