Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Why can't my child stand to be wrong?

More than anything else, our DD8 cannot stand to be wrong. This applies to being wrong about facts or information, as well as being caught doing something wrong, like taking her sister's toy.

When caught doing something wrong, she will with utmost conviction deny being wrong, and use all manner of verbal subterfuge to wiggle out of it. She is so convincing that we often second-guess what our own eyes have seen. When the subtle approach fails her, she will blatantly deny and lie with a defensive fire in her eyes. In fact, in daily life with her friends and family she seems to begin most replies with, "No,[let me correct you; you misunderstood me; what I really meant was; that's not at all what happened...]" She has been doing this since age 5 but it has increased this past year.

What is going on here? We aren't Tiger Parents and our punishments are not severe. In fact we're pretty casual and lazy in that regard. We don't hype her up as the gifted know-it-all, and we regularly tell her that we're wrong all the time, and that it's OK.

What worries me is that no matter what approach we use to rebuke her blatant lying and denial, she won't back down. It's as if she truly believes she is not wrong, when really what appears to be going on that she cannot handle being wrong. If we keep pushing, she melts down, screams and howls.

We've tried talking to her about it. We tell her we are wrong all the time, and that's it's normal and OK. But this does not seem to make a dent.

I wonder if maybe early on, when she got wind she was gifted, she took it on as her identity. Her tester was quite impressed and spoke to her of grade skipping, but maybe now that she's in a gifted class where she's not the highest achieving student, this identity is threatened. In fact, it almost seems like it burdens her, because she doesn't care for academics; her only real passion is to be spontaneously discovered as a pop star. But then when we try to tell her she needs to practice singing more to get there, she becomes a wall.

Is this typical for gifted children? Has anyone else dealt with this successfully, and if so, how?

We just want her to be happy and be who she is. As parents we believed we had the most power and influence to help her accomplish this, but the reality often leaves us feeling powerless, forcing us to shrug our shoulders and ask for help. And thanks to places like this, we can find some guidance, since we cannot afford the child shrink at present.

Our soon-to-be-8 dd is much the same - in fact, I'd say everything you wrote I could have written about her... up until the pop star part! Our dd instead wants to be the superstar academic... but that may be mostly a function of being a little sister to an extremely EG older brother to "compete" with (please note, it's only dd who's competing, everyone else in our family is on the extreme side of mellow!).

I don't really have any advice for you - for our dd, there was more than just the need to be in control and perfect and all that going on - she also has a challenge with associative memory, so for her, sometimes when the facts as she sees them aren't really the truth of what happened, it's genuinely a case of her not having the memory link in place. Other times she is clearly in full control of her brain synapses but just doesn't want to get in trouble and/or wants to be fully in charge. We are having her see a counselor this spring to help her deal with her anxieties, and the counselor gave us a technique that does help in situations where dd is saying things that aren't true as a way of feeling like she's staying in control. It actually works for our dd! Here's how it goes:

dd blurts out something we know isn't the truth
we tell her, "Sometimes all of us say things we accidentally don't mean to say. We get excited and the words just rush out before we have time to really think about what we are going to say. It sounds like that just happened to you. I'm going to give you three minutes to think about it, and then we'll start over again. It won't matter what you said before. After three minutes you can tell me what you actually wanted to say, and I'll listen."

Once we started this technique, dd not only responded well in the moment, but it cut down overall (dramatically) the number of times she got into the controlling behavior and extreme frustration over not always being "right".

Best wishes,

polarbear

In general, gifted kids can't stand to be wrong because of perfectionism, though there may also be a bit of this involved:


Permissive parenting can lead to exactly this kind of problem.

Hmmm...uh...are you me? Did I write that first post?

Although DD does like academics. But other than that, she sounds just like your DD. And yes, it's a problem for us as well.

I have to say that my own father is just like DD in this regard. He is also extremely intelligent--I would classify him as PG for sure.


I LOVE THIS! I am going to try it. polarbear, does your DD have an anxiety dx, and does your psych consider this behavior part of that?

@polarbear: Thank you for the ideas. We are going to try that technique to cut down on the drama and give her some second chances. It makes a lot of sense in terms of helping them feel like they're still in control, while hopefully leading to a positive outcome.

@Dude: It's possible our lack of highly structured discipline, like a rewards/consequences chart, is not helping this situation. That being said, we do punish, take toys/video games/TV/computer away, but part of my point was there is nothing we do that should cause her to fear being wrong, like ridicule, or severe consequences that would make her lie in order to avoid getting in trouble.

Pru,
Perfectionism? yes, that is a pretty standard issue for gifted kids/adults.

Sometimes I think in school where everything is marked and graded, it is not ok to be wrong. you must get things correct. in school. (in life) sigh.

How does your DD perceive what would happen if she was wrong? What would it mean to her? How does being wrong make her feel? I think you really get it. You are on the mark on the issues about this. And yes, noticing there are many other gifted high-achieving able students to compare with, could make the "self" feel less valuable/worthy(?)

Perhaps consider going around it a different way. As a coach, someone alongside her. Tell her how you feel when you're wrong about something. What did you realize about being wrong. How did that make you a better person. How often are you wrong... etc etc How ok is it to be wrong?

Going directly against her will mostly make her feel extremely defensive, as you already know. You don't want it to be mom is always right and she is always wrong -- as the thing she remembers going into her teenage years.

How to have her feel less defensive about it? How to help her feel ok about being wrong? Start small... (?)

Looking fwd to reading more replies on this topic as I don't really know how to deal with it either --

Love polarbear's idea

I don't think permissive parenting per se is the actual issue. These children (and many adults) have very serious perfectionism issues. What you're seeing are symptoms of it -- the need to be right, accurate, correct. What is the underlying thinking process inside the person -- and to change and adjust the self-thinking involved there -- that is what is more important.

More important than just butting heads with a child who doesn't know and doesn't know how to manage their own perfectionism. It isn't about the mom/parents always being right and making sure the kid knows who is in charge. (Not saying you're doing that Pru/polarbear.)

That's enough from me.

It is internal. Inside there is a feeling that one needs to do things accurately, correctly, and can't be wrong.

The question is basically, "what do you mean by 'lazy'?" Because by the use of that term, I can imagine:

- Rules are applied inconsistently... sometimes you punish for a particular offense, and sometimes it's allowed to slide for the same exact offense. Both parents may have an entirely different approach.
- Warnings are often given, ignored, and there are no consequences.
- Punishments are frequently offered, and then rescinded later.

These would be hallmarks of inconsistent and/or permissive parenting, and that's a style of parenting that frequently leads to children not respecting limits, insistent on getting their own way, always being right, etc. So if that sounds like you, it's worth checking out authoritative parenting as an alternative.

Authoritative parenting doesn't mean you need a chart and a formalized system of rewards and consequences (that's not parenting, that's micromanagement)... it just means rules are well-communicated, boundaries are consistent, and overstepping those boundaries results in predictable consequences, in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

And if that doesn't sound like you... disregard.

I could also have written this, except my daughter (also 8) is the worst liar ever. She cannot tell a decent lie to save her life, she will make up the most ridiculous stories to cover herself! (and long may it stay that way ;))

And she wants to be an art teacher btw.

The above seems like a great solution to try. I can see it working with her. I don't think she maliciously lies, she's not that kind of kid. It's just infuriating!

I too could have written this but dd is 12!!

She has consequences when she gets caught lying, but even then she vehemently denies lying even when the evidence is clearly NOT in her favor.

I told her that her "AIM" in the situation is normal and healthy, but the way she is going about it is not appropriate.

The problem we have with consequences is, nothing seems to have an effect. We have taken away electronics, phone, sleep overs, school socials, etc. Short of bread and water and a bare mattress on the floor...and nothing seems to get the point across.

If you’re interested in research into making mistakes (and how perfectionism plays a role, and how to deal with that, and how the brain works), the article "Why Do Some People Learn Faster?" might be of interest.
(There are tons of articles about this sort of thing; this one just sprung to mind.)

If you’re interested in opening a conversation about the importance of mistakes, there are some fascinating books we’ve enjoyed as a family:

A humorous book is Mistakes That Worked which looks at science.

If your daughter likes math, science and/or history, you may enjoy Edward Zaccarro’s The Ten Things All Future Mathematicians and Scientists Must Know (But are Rarely Taught), which explores mistakes—and why they happen, and what people did (or didn’t do!) to fix them. Some examples are intense (e.g. people die because of errors), but they are real and great examples to learn from. Depends on how sensitive your DD is.

Good luck!

On a different note: I was just like your DD when I was younger.

One thing that did really help in my situation was learning about my parents' strengths.

You said, "we regularly tell her that we're wrong all the time, and that it's OK." In addition, do you also clearly show her your abilities?

Do you show your DD ways in which you make excellent decisions (e.g. at work, in financial planning, in making a will, in helping a friend)? Do you show her your mastery of domains with which she is unfamiliar? Does she feel you are an authority on good choices (as well as mistakes)?

A balance can be good. Just thinkin'

Seems like a good idea. I did teach her how to persevere, and use illustrations from my life and work, and I think it got through. She did mention it once or twice later.

It's an interesting perspective that will require some more thought and intentionality, but I'm definitely going to pursue it.

I actually suspect that my DD is the way she is partly because she has realized that she is very smart and that she often notices or remembers things that others (including her parents) do not. I think she doesn't trust us to get it right, to some extent.

This is part of why we always explain our rules to DD7... because in the course of explaining them we're going to show her how we're aware of things that she's not. It tells her the value of listening to us, because we're pretty smart. Deep down, kids want to know that their parents are sharp and are going to make good decisions, because it gives them a great sense of security. If they're convinced their parents don't know what they're doing, that's a scary feeling.

We also make sure we don't always lose to her on purpose... partly to teach her that we're good at stuff, too, and thus worthy of her respect, but also to teach her how to lose with grace. We wouldn't want to turn her loose on the school playground without having experienced defeat before.

Last week she wanted to play "Guess Which Hand?" with a little rubber ball, and I guessed correctly each time, which totally amazed her. Then it was my turn to hold the ball, and she guessed wrong every time. She was still having fun, but she simply could not believe how she couldn't get it right at least once through sheer luck. So I explained it to her:

"In both cases, I knew something you didn't."
"What?"
"When you had the ball, your hands were different, because in the one with the ball your knuckles bulged out a bit."
[she experiments, observing both hands next to each other as one holds the ball, tries holding it different ways, bulging out her other hand to match, etc.]
"What about when you had the ball?"
"When I did it, the ball wasn't in EITHER hand."
[quick demonstration of how I'd drop the ball in my lap, show her the one hand she'd requested, and pick up the ball with the other]

She thought that was HILARIOUS. But then, trying to put one past each other is a regular part of our daily family life.

So yeah, don't be afraid to show off. Little kids want to believe that their parents are pretty amazing.

I think this is normal for GT. My daughter is used to being smarter than others. I have put her in classes where she has to work hard - such as foreign language and music - and she does not like the feeling of something not coming easily to her. She is ranked #1 in her high school class and that seems to come easy to her. She is uncomfortable being less.

My husband is the same way and is PG. After years of dealing with it, I am just going with it.