Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums General Discussion Do You Brag (Or Do Your Friends Think You Do?)

http://blogs.babycenter.com/mom_stories/i-hate-hearing-about-your-gifted-child/

This post was shared on another discussion, and I really think it deserves its own conversation because it brings up so many issues that we, as parents of gifted children, face. Whether it is envy, insecurity, or some other emotion that evokes the attitude in the post above, it is something that each of us - and our children - have faced at some point or another.

I'd love to hear how your child or your parenting have been misunderstood and how you dealt with it. I've come to learn that there is a lot of wisdom on this board and look forward to what each of you share.

My own story that best define the misconceptions that others have about raising a gifted child:

My middle son was in seventh grade, had recently transferred from a private school into public, and was, shall I say, not putting forth anywhere near his best effort as he coped with the social and structural changes of the new school.

When his health teacher chided him in front of the entire class that he "wasn't stupid" and that she knew he knew the answer, he decided to teach her a lesson. I did not discover this decision for several weeks until a note came home letting me know he was failing all of his classes due to zeros. Mind you, not zeros for not turning in his work, but zeros on completed work, tests, and every other assignment. When I asked him why, his response:

"It's a lot harder to do all the work and get a zero than it looks. You have to pay attention or you accidentally get one wrong."

At this point, I decided that my whole attitude at gifted classes being "elite" was wrong, I went to the school counselor and asked that my son be screened. She looked at his grades and said that she refused to reward his poor performance with the "privilege" of being tested for gifted. She did the whole head-pat thing with me and said, "Every parent here wants their kid to be gifted, but, let's face it, most aren't. And your son obviously isn't."

My response thoroughly offended her, but I felt it needed said. "Anyone who wishes giftedness on their child has no idea the cost they are exacting on their child. A high IQ is not a ticket to being special or successful. It is simply the way a child is born, and with it usually comes challenges socially and emotionally that most children will never face. I wouldn't wish it on any child, but I embrace it completely in my own, because that is the way he's made. And I will do everything I have to to make sure he gets the services he needs to be successful."

I handed her a letter the next day requesting formally that my son be tested. When the screening was completed, the teacher who conducted the screening called and told me my son had scored higher on the test than anyone had ever scored at the school.

To this day (my younger son now attends that school) - almost 7 years later - the counselor still won't speak.

IMO, you weren't bragging and it would be hard for me to see how the counselor could have thought you were. You were helping your son, and it seems clear (to me at least) that you did exactly the right thing for him. If there was an emoticon for patting someone on the back, I'd place it here.

I define gifted-kid bragging as openly telling the world or anyone who will listen (whether they want to or not) about how smart your kid is ("You won't believe what he did today! And then he did this! And afterwards, he did that!!"). This could happen in a conversation at the park, at a birthday party, online, or wherever.

To me, the purpose of over-the-top bragging is for the parent's ego. This type of bragging doesn't consider the needs or desires of the child (e.g. does DS really want everyone knowing that he learned how to multiply when he was 4? Shouldn't his parents leave that decision up to him?). Obviously, sometimes we have to say things about our kids' abilities (to schools for example). This is not bragging: we are trying to meet our kids' needs when we do this.

Obviously, every parent takes pride in what our kids do. Being happy about the fact that your child got an A on a tough test or caught the winning pass is normal, and so is wanting to talk about it. This is healthy. But celebrating achievement in a healthy way is different from telling everyone how smart your kid is.

Of course, celebrating achievement can turn into over-the-top bragging too --- and again, when this happens, it's for the parent, not the kid.

I really don't agree with this. Other things being equal, it is better to be very smart than average in intelligence, just as it is better to be very attractive or very athletic than average in the domains of looks or athleticism.

I *did* want to increase my chances of having gifted children, and that's partly why I emphasized intelligence in potential spouses.

I found that article to be extremely hurtful. Too often I have sat back and listened to the accomplishments of typically developing children but feel that I can never talk about my own kids. When I do talk about my kids, it may be perceived as bragging though I'm just discussing our daily life. Our normal isn't everyone elses normal. On top of being gifted we are also dealing with Autism, SPD, CAPD, Hyperlexia, and some anxiety. It's not a walk in the park.

It is socially acceptable to brag about your child's athletic accomplishments, but not their intellectual ones. That's the society we live in. Anti-intellectualism has been a growing movement since the 80s. Sport good. Smart bad.

With that said, some people are going to interpret bragging where it never belonged. I gave an example in another thread where a mom overheard my wife and I having a conversation about DD's writing project, and the mom asked us about the project. I told that mom that my DD is gifted, not to brag about it, but because I didn't want her using that project as a measuring stick and wondering why her own DD's work was so far below that level.

However, just because I didn't say it to brag doesn't mean it won't be interpreted that way. For someone who uses their child as a source of personal validation and emotional support, any positive statement about your child will diminish themselves in their own eyes. As I've said elsewhere, that's not your problem, that's theirs.

Obviously there are plenty of parents of gifted children who use their children in the same way, and they give the rest of us a bad name. I've seen both sides of it, too... a gifted parent who is constantly bragging about her children, and then this same gifted parent publicly shaming her children when they grew up to be underachievers.

Anyway, this is why I have so little respect for the author of that blog post. She comes right out and admits that she had children in large part to make her feel good about herself. And since she can't get the validation she was seeking for raising a gifted child, she's trying to get it by acquiring acclaim for raising a polite one. It's got nothing to do with her child, it's all about her. Bleh.

If her child was gifted, I wonder how Joyce would have reacted when that child started outsmarting her at a very young age. It's been a bit humbling for me when my child has come up with better ways of doing things than the way I showed her. It happened much sooner than I would have imagined. I guess in some ways I wanted a child who was as gifted as me, but not necessarily more. You get what you get, though.

I was happy when I realized my child was intelligent, but what I wanted more for her was a happy, 'normal' life, I can't imagine anyone wishing what some of our gifted kids go through for their child.

We've only just been given the official 'gifted' label, and I'm having a really hard time wrapping my head around it because I've been so conditioned to not talk about it. When she started reading and writing at 4 and I mentioned it to her pediatrician he was very stern about not trying to make out she was something she wasn't, and my friends with older kids were quick to point out that other parents don't want to hear about what your kid is doing when their own isn't there yet. One of those parents btw, is constantly posting about their kids athletic achievements on Facebook, something my kid will never experience, but I don't chide them for it!

I'm ashamed of myself for hiding it, but I just don't want to add another level of stress to my life by talking about it, because there's no way it will be construed as anything other than bragging.

I don't try to brag nor mean to brag but honestly I often feel it is unfair that my friends with a typically developing child can proudly tell about their child's latest achievement, thing they learned, etc... But if I do it is percieved as bragging. I don't go out oft way to tell people but I proud off DD and what she does, not because it ahead, but because she is my daughter and I will be proud of her I'm everything. Would I have chosen this for my daughter just so I could feel good? Absolutly not. Her dad and I are gifted but moderatly so... I ache that for dd she will not have the "normal" childhood society ascribes but then this is her normal and as a parent, if she is happy i am happy.

Ps...typed on phone

I find that listening to others. Really listening. So when they tell you that their dd is unhappy having to go to a special class to get faster at adding talk about how frustrated you would be too. Help her advocate for her dd and encouage her to ask questions and get answers. Make sure she knows that there are a lot of very smart people hwho have the same problem with speed. Also, find something about that child that is above. Like compassion. I never speek of my own dd's compassion. I know that is what she is proud of in her dd. So, she listens to me. She understands that my dd has didffrent needs but we are advocating at the same school and that makes us friends. It helped a lot when the school identified the children and only 7 of them made the cut. Now she knows I'm not just bragging but that my dd really does have different needs and she can't identify, but she can support me. Just like I can't identify with making my dd study math facts or anything for that matter, but I support her being a good mom and advocating for her dd.

I saw this blog too and loved it. I agree, I have completely shut down talking about this -- in fact, I am "afraid" of anyone really knowing -- it is weird. I had so many negative responses from a young age that I decided I'd just hide out. Now I want to advocate within my district and I can't seem to get over coming out of the closet, so to speak. But, I will, and I have to, in order to do what's best for my daughter.

Once my son was old enough to take the College Board's SAT, (age 12) it helped my sidestep a lot of these uncomfortable sitautions. I just said - He took the SAT to try and test into his summer camp and scored a _______. He needs _______.
Once folks hear something that they can relate to as different, it got a little easier to ask for accomidations. Not really easy to get them, but much easier to ask.

The optimist's reading on our situation: DS9 has in some ways gotten a bye in both directions. Even in preschool, other children were excusing his extremely odd behavior (later diagnosed as Asperger's Syndrome) as due to being "smart" because it was obvious to all of them that he could do things they could not. Really-- even four-year-olds had theories about him, because he warranted explanation. He still gets a bye from peers sometimes for this reason; the "eccentric genius" idea really does let a person get away with a good bit of odd behavior.

But it is also true that we have rarely had to explicitly discuss "giftedness" (a word I pretty much never use) because it is so obvious that DS's needs are so extravagantly unusual due to his disability. In general I need to do much less bragging than excusing ("pardon us, he's a little autistic"). Lots of people know about his peculiar math placement, kids used to stop him in the halls to quiz him, but it appears to be just part and parcel of the larger oddness of the situation. Whether he's disappearing to special ed or gifted pullout, who can tell?

The pessimist's reading: in some ways, he's a walking stereotype of both giftedness and AS, and that can work against him in multiple ways as people make unwarranted assumptions. And it can mitigate against genuine understanding, though we've worked especially with peers in school to help kids understand where DS is coming from, to great effect.

The silver lining of DS being so easily misunderstood is that we have been ignored by some people in our community whom I would not enjoy spending time with anyway, whether they avoid us because he's unusual or because we are probably horrible parents to be raising such an odd child or because the comparison to their kids makes them feel funny, I don't know. Probably not the latter. Those who can tolerate difference appear to like us okay, and we do all we can to cultivate relationships with them.

We all try hard to maintain cordiality... which requires great care.

DeeDee

Edited to add (public service announcement): Most people with AS are within the average range of intelligence: the HG+ folks with AS are as much outliers in the autism community as they are in any other setting. It *is* a stereotype.

Oh, this is priceless. I am convinced many have thought the same of my parenting skills when they meet our youngest.


And you can thank Boston Legal for both bringing awareness to this particular diagnosis and for promoting the stereotype all at once.

I don't think I brag, and I hope that my acquaintances don't think so either. There's a great deal of actual bragging about giftedness, covering as far as I can tell the range of actual ability from slightly slow to "ultrabright", and it tends to make people touchy and feed misperceptions of bragging. It might be helpful to identify activities that qualify as intentional bragging, and ones that might be identified as bragging though that's not the intent.

I use the word "intentional" to include subconscious motivations. I know that this can involve some tricky introspection, but if one's motivation on any level, in dropping into the conversation some fun or illustrative detail about precocious little Johnny or Suzie, is to achieve any sort of advantage over the other person, it's intentional. People sometimes don't think about these things consciously when they're doing them, and might not find them easy to admit even to themselves if brought to their attention.

For example, I think that it might qualify as intentional bragging to:

· Engage in one-upmanship, e.g. to respond to some other parent's mention of something their child has done, dropping into the conversation unbidden that one's child did a similar thing earlier/faster/better/more (there could possibly be exemptions, such as a milestones thread or other context where such statements are invited from everyone, but a persistent pattern of one-upmanship might still qualify as bragging)
· State in any mention of one's child that she is highly/exceptionally/profoundly gifted, or scored or was identified as such, when it doesn't add to the conversation, especially in response to another parent's statement about their child's unqualified giftedness (this is highly context-dependent, and for example this website should be pretty much exempt from this rule due to its intended readership)
· Mention one's child's specific score on an intelligence or achievement test, outside of an appropriate context (again, any mention on this website is probably completely immune, except for the aggravating factor of one-upmanship)
· Assert with certainty that one's child is highly/exceptionally/profoundly gifted without knowing for sure, especially if announced in an inappropriate context; aggravating factors might include an exceptionally shaky basis, such as heavy reliance on general statements from friends, family, doctors in the delivery room, etc. (This behavior might qualify more as unintentional bragging or behavior seen as such, and like the rest is context-dependent, but is just about guaranteed to be taken as bragging due to perception that the parent is the type to be pushy about a child's abilities.)
· Use cliquish language, e.g. "these kids" ("Anyone with one of these kids knows...", "These kids face challenges normal kids just never face" {said while shaking one's head}, etc.)

I guess what we're finding out further from that nasty blog post, and which many or all of us knew already, is that just about any mention of our children's attributes or abilities can be taken as bragging. I still think it might be helpful to identify the sorts of things that might be seen as bragging, so that we can clearly consider whether to avoid them.

One behavior that I've seen personally as a possibility for unintentionally coming off as a braggart:

· Mentioning a child's abilities or issues in a way that might be seen as insincerely bashful or falsely modest, even if the mention occurs in a proper context; that is, it might be best to be direct and matter-of-fact, especially since there are some people you just can't please on this subject

It might be useful to classify coping mechanisms we use in discussions with others, either in choosing the context for discussions or in the way we discuss giftedness, with mention of whether we feel that these behaviors are helpful or unhelpful. We began this in a freeform way in the other thread. Some examples:

· Avoiding reasonable perceptions of bragging, such as by restricting statements about the giftedness of one's child to the proper context (and other corollaries from points on bragging above)
· Downplaying the abilities of one's child, in order to put the other at ease. This is probably unhelpful, at least if one goal is to be able to discuss one's child openly at some point in the relationship with the other, and may be damaging to a child if who overhears or learns of such downplaying statements.
· Accompanying statements about the high ability of one's child with honest statements about challenges facing one's child that are also part of the proper context (if entirely out of context, these could be seen as false modesty or bashfulness). If chosen well, such words can help the other to see the reality of one's situation at the same time as they may quiet suspicions of an intent to brag.
· Telegraphing a lack of intent to brag, such as by statements that one values most highly a child's kindness, courage, assiduousness, or other good attributes besides intelligence. This could backfire if seen as insincere.

It might also be helpful to identify clues that the time isn't right for discussions about one's special Johnny or Suzie. Some possibilities that occur to me off the cuff:

· General anti-bragging responsive or pre-emptive measures, such as mention of some other child who's more gifted than one's child, did things earlier/faster/better/more, etc. These statements should be carefully considered to determine whether the person is open and trying to find common ground for discussion, or whether one has overstepped the bounds of courtesy in that person's view. They should never be met with any attempt at escalation, as they are probably in the nature of self-defense (when one shouldn't want to hurt the other) or bragging (where escalation is bound to result in hurt feelings for someone).
· Defensive statements about the other's child, such as that she hasn't been given the same opportunities as Suzie, had a bad testing day, etc., which might indicate that one has made the other feel bad about her child.
· The use, even outside of a discussion about one's child, of some stereotype aimed at minimizing giftedness, such as that all gifted people lack common sense. This could be a hint that the other knows of one's child already and is trying to head off a discussion of giftedness at the pass, or is predisposed to hostility on the subject, or simply is extremely touchy about it. I don't generally treat such things as invitations to an education on the true nature of giftedness, perhaps with the exception of a statement by a friend.
· Attempts to change the subject, even if polite and made in the absence of other clues.

I don't think I brag in person. I may sometime be guilty of too many funny-cute-slightly braggy Facebook updates about my kids.

We have experienced a lot of uncomfortable conversations with friends since moving DD to the gifted magnet school, so I'm pretty careful about it at present.

I used to do a lot of "Well, yes, she can...but boy, does she ever...." I have stopped that. I realized that duh, kids listen, and it wasn't a good message. FTR, this was always in response to "Wow--she can ____?"

I still say, when testing comes up, "Well, testing is really imperfect...so hard to tell...some kids are late bloomers...some kids don't test well..." (I do believe all these things. But I may be a little too quick to mention them.)

You know, I just tell it like it is. At 14 months, people are always asking about milestones. And I just state whatever the truth is. I know my answers surprise people and they might not even always believe me. I'm sure sometimes people get annoyed by me, just like the mom on BabyCenter...

I did witness my mother bragging about DD's signing, unasked. I thought it was kind of weird, and I don't know if I ever do that in conversation. Maybe I do, I don't know.

I do know one mom on fb poked fun at my daughter because her daughter has started talking and mine can only sign (I guess I deserved it, though. I posted "Eek! ;)" on a picture where my best friends 7 month old and that girl's baby were eating Cheetos together. Pretty rude of me. My bf and I always talk about nutrition and food, but that girl doesn't know that.)

I am also guilty of the "funny-cute-slightly braggy Facebook updates", but so are all of my mama friends. All of us are always posting about how our child is sitting, walking or talking or whatever. It is exciting when that stuff happens! I'm sure our non-parent friends have our status updates blocked by now lol.

I'm pretty opinionated in real life and on Facebook and I know a few people have blocked my updates (including the Cheeto mama, a long time ago.) or unfriended me if they don't like what I say or do. Who cares? My real friends are excited with me and tend to be interested in what I'm interested in.

I've also noticed that a natural parenting group I'm a part of on there (we all had babies the same month) is full of very bright children. DD was ahead of most of them in some areas, but some of those babies are starting to talk in sentences at 14 months and DD just has signs. She is barely talking. (Starting to worry about her hearing, actually...) I have two other friends that I found out were gifted in school and they also have bright babies. I tend to talk with them the most.

In "real life", I hang out with a group of natural-minded parents, and many of them also seem to be very bright. I went on an outing the other day where I was having a normal small-talk conversation with another mama and she was quoting statistics to me about the average age of weaning worldwide <3. Awesome. I'm not 100% sure yet, but I think we may fit in pretty well with them all.

I'm never out to make anyone feel bad or inferior (though I do feel bad when I realize I've done that), but I won't apologize for who I am (and who my family is) or moderate my opinions to a large degree to please an audience.

If the subject is milestones (or whatever) and you're being honest and matter of fact, I don't thing it's bragging, though other people's insecurities may lead them to claim that it is.

I, too, thought that Slaton's post was pretty obnoxious and that it said a lot more about her than it did about other people. But to be fair, I've seen and heard some pretty stunningly vulgar bragging.

When I was in high school, one of our athletes was very, very talented and was scouted by universities all over the country. The school and his parents bragged about him to the point where the poor kid had no idea that there were better athletes than him out there. He couldn't handle not being number one when he got to college, and it took a terrible toll on him.

I've seen blogs that go on and on about my-profoundly-gifted-child, post constant updates about what the little darling has accomplished, and include real names and photographs. IMO, and others may disagree, this is vulgar and may end up damaging the child, who has no say about what mommy is revealing about him or her. And it may come back to haunt the child if others are put off by mommy's bragging. Plus, it makes things harder for other gifted kids and their parents, too.

So yes, Joyce Slaton's blog post was crass, but that doesn't mean that some people don't have a valid point about being tired of someone raving on and on about their gifted little darling.

This thread is ironically popular at the same time as "The Ultimate Bragging Thread", so I felt inspired to step inside and post an update.

All parents like to "brag" about what their child is doing because it is exciting and amazing to see children doing new things, seemingly out of nowhere. The difference, here, is that we're made to feel like we are bragging and being rude just because our kids do things earlier than most others. Which is why we have bragging threads on these forums lol.
But we all know this already.

Nobody gets offended or irritated if someone with a slower or disabled child gets excited when their child hits a milestone most other children that age have mastered... in fact, I don't think most people get irritated when anyone posts about their child doing things right on schedule.

I agree that Slaton's post definitely said more about her than anything else.

I have learned to talk about loose teeth and growth spurts rather than first words or spelling bees. It's funny though. My dd was accepted to a hard to get in ballet summer intesive in new York and people are so supportive. I'm amazed. These same people don't want to hear that she does all her homework on Monday. Even if they ask. I think it's because their own children don't rake ballet. I don't know.

Perhaps I'm wrong on this, but I think this is the thing.

A person can say anything they want, with well-hidden intentions or well-meaning intentions, or skewed intentions -- they could say it with the right words and right tone, or they could say it with the wrong (because they are imperfect) word and wrong tone. And they can say it at the right time or the wrong time. omg.

I'm always surprised when other people, later, after hearing someone say something, will then report (to other ppl) on what that person's intentions were. Like as if they know or could see into the heart.

Many of us *are* intuitive, so maybe we can get a "sense" of things. But will we ever really know? (Unless the person spelled out their intentions.) (I think only if you go back to the source and have an honest discussion with an accepting attitude of the other person. Not with a a lot of other possible attitudes that one can bring to a conversation.) But still -- this is assuming honesty. Also assuming a deep understanding of the self -- as we all have multiple layers/reasons/issues when we speak.

So... ... I challenge that it is up to the receiver/hearer to take what they want from what someone said.

Next time someone sounds like they are bragging and consistently does so, I suppose you can come to some conclusion about the person -- but only for a period of time -- as I do believe people can change.

And perhaps, you can offer a little bit of 'grace' and acknowledge them and reassure them that they are doing well.

sappy nappy

This blog pushed all of my buttons. Not only am I frustrated with people like this, but I'm downright pissed. Would you EVER talk that way about a parent who was relaying their experiences with a child on the other end of the spectrum?

I continually have to monitor any comment about my kids. We live in a small town and anything different is seen as suspect.

Why shouldn't I be able to share the milestones of my children's lives just because they're gifted?

It's very frustrating and isolating to not talk about or share the ups and downs of raising gifted children. I limit my discussions of DD & DS's achievements to other parents who have gifted children. Luckily, I can talk to my parents as while I was TAG my sister is off the charts HG, so they do get it. But my in-laws don't and most of my dh's family are educators! It becomes a competition because the favorite grandchild is capable of being a high achiever (not sure about gifted) but he's lazy. So any mention of what's going on with our kids - DD attends a private prep school and DS skipped 6th grade - is met with disbelief and derision.

In some cases, yes (e.g., a random conversation at the park). But there are cases that are pretty clear-cut: a blog that consistently updates the world on my-incredibly-gifted-child is vulgar and bragging, whether the gift is for academics or sports or whatever. So is calling the newspaper constantly because Junior threw the winning pass again or whatever.

Honestly, I think reactions like Ms. Slaton's come from insecurities and the fact that people who are cognitively gifted have advantages that other people don't have. If you're a gifted athlete and you get injured (common problem), your career may be over and you may not have a lot of other options. Outside of brain injuries, gifted people have seemingly endless options.

This doesn't mean that we have to hide our abilities, but it also doesn't mean that people should just shout them out constantly. This kind of high-profile bragging just makes it harder for everyone. Remember, I'm only talking about people who look for any excuse to announce Junior's latest accomplishment, not people who are responding on-topic in a conversation or trying to advocate for their kids!

Yes, me too. Here's an experience I've had, talking to a friend who has a child older than mine, and I dare say I'm not the only one: at some point, I realised that I could be read as doing one-up-man-ship, because we'd had multiple conversations in which she reported something her child had done, and I responded about mine doing something similar too. Of course, since she was talking about recent accomplishments and my child was younger, this often implied that mine had done this thing younger than hers... I didn't mean consciously to be pointing out that my child was advanced compared with hers, and I see no reason to believe that I meant it subconsciously, either. I frankly just don't have the social processing power to evaluate in real time how something I say is going to be perceived by someone when added to everything I've said in the past and bearing in mind their probable state of mind. It's all I can do to make sure that what I say is both relevant to the conversation and true. Generally if someone gives an example of X from their experience, giving an example of X from yours is safe - so, pitfall.

Ha! It's a no win because if you hold back Information they think you are doing so sympatheticly as to not hurt their feelings. And they are insulted that you feel like you need to hide.

The problem is that more intellectual ability is better, so a parent of a normally developing child is always at risk of taking your intent to be presentation of your child as superior (which they are in a key respect, no way around it). Due to the gap, we may have to spend a little time and effort to be tactful to make sure someone understands that we're not trying to lord it over them.

I think that the reason people aren't so touchy about athletic prowess is that it's easy to rationalize away any differences without affecting one's feelings about one's child. Intelligence is seen as static by most people, whereas athletic prowess is always in large part the result of tremendous amounts of physical labor. Athletic prowess tends to be limited to the first 2-3 decades of life, and thus has a limited potential payoff, whereas high intelligence generally lasts until old age. Developing athletic ability takes a big time commitment and sometimes money commitment on the part of a parent (whereas the common conception of the gifted may not see it the same way even if true), and a parent might feel that their child could be a high athletic achiever too, except that they've made other choices, perhaps to focus on academics... no parent who wants their child to be successful would ever trade away intelligence for some other goal.

Parental intellectual competitiveness by proxy is understandable, because people want the best for their children, and the ones most focused on that often don't want to consider that their children are limited in any way. Children with naturally high abilities threaten those parents' conceptions about their children. This is a scenario that will be repeated forever, or until we are all gene-tuned cyborgs with incomparable abilities. In the meantime I think it's best to work on self- and other-perception in order to keep feathers as unruffled as possible, without making apologies for who we are.

I'll have to disagree with you here. The top athletes are born with certain advantages... height, mass, higher proportion of fast-twitch muscle fibers, etc. These are advantages that no amount of hard work can overcome, because someone born with these attributes who also works hard will win every time.

What makes sports so different from intellect is this:

- Sports performance and ability are easily measured from one person to the other. People argue with the results of an IQ test all the time, but nobody argues with the scoreboard.

- Sports can be non-threatening, because if your child will not be competing, then that child's performance does not impact your child. So if someone else's kid is seven feet, and yours is five, it doesn't matter that the other kid can dunk without leaving the ground, because your kid is going to go do something else. That "something else" probably involves going to college and pursuing a good job, which puts that child in competition with just about everyone else who isn't seven feet tall.

- Being bad at sports is not considered a tragic flaw. Being bad at thinking is. As a result, the overwhelming majority of people like to think of themselves as above-average in intelligence, and they don't want a reminder when they're not.

We're not in disagreement on this.

Why do you think a lack of high intelligence is seen as a tragic flaw? I think that's a good way of putting it, and the best I can come up with is that it has implications for professional success. Maybe it's that intelligence goes to the heart of who you are every waking (and sleeping) moment, whereas sports is something you do that doesn't change who you're seen to be as a person?

I've been thinking about how talking about your gifted kid could make other people feel bad or inadequate. As Iucounu said, people don't want to think that their kids are limited in some way, and if someone mentions that Joey skipped two grades or started reading when he was two, it can remind others about something they can't give their kids.

Put another way, a very wealthy person might stay quiet when other people are talking about how they're going to pay for college. In this case, the person is being polite. S/he has something the others don't, and keeping quiet in this situation avoids making them feel bad or inadequate. Speaking up would just remind them about something they might already feel rotten about.

So in this context, I can see that keeping quiet about giftedness is appropriate (most obviously if the talk is about a child with developmental delays, but even if everyone else is just average-ish).

A friend and I met for lunch yesterday at a cafe the next town over. We were discussing the difficulties of parenting gifted kids and advocating for them in a hostile, uninterested school district.

Since the cafe isn't big and we live in a small community, we were talking in low tones. I noticed that we received numerous nasty glances from the table next to ours.

Sometimes people just want to be angry about something.

I'd answer that final question with an affirmative. I'd also expand on that by pointing out how physical abilities have fairly limited application... whereas intelligence affects EVERYTHING.

It even affects sports performance, though sometimes being too smart can hurt, too.

To that point. You can decide to never set foot on a football field again. Football is over.... Can't do that to your IQ, it's alway there. You can't shut off your head.

Well.  Anyone talking to me is going those stories if I say anything at all.  I'm a SAHM with a comfortably boring life.  If I tell you what my kid's learning lately it's not because I'm living through my kid, it is because I am living with my kid.  We watch t.v., play board games, walk/bike to the post office & the library on schedule, 3 meals a day on schedule, kids in bed at 8:30.  If I want to tell you what we've been doing lately then what the boy's studying is the only new thing that's happening.  (unless I just painted a mural on the mirror or something).  It's actually what we've been doing this week.    Everything runs on schedule. Grass is growing.

I do have a brag blog, but it really started because I was reading about academic portfolio's a long time ago and what I read was that it was good to make a portfolio that chronicled the pace of your kids educational development in case you end up talking to any kind of educational consultant they can easily look at your kids development.  I just like my electronic portfolio.  Yeah, I share it sometimes.
On the last part, about giftedness itself.  My gramma said if you ever do talk about iqs say a different # because most people don't go over a certain #.  (sadly I heard that advice too late.  I could have used it as a new mother looking to join a certain gifted parent forum-ouch).   Conversely, the hubby calls me out on changing the way I talk around other people.  What's the difference?  I haven't seen anybody that needs me to be as smart as I can be, or really has any use or need for it.  Really the only ones who need to know have often told me spontaneously, "I know you're really smart because I'm really smart".  Nowadays some people tell me my kid's really smart and I say, "Yup."


That's why I'm excited that my kids will likely go to gifted kids things when they're older.  It's like, yeah, if it doesn't really matter then why do other people act like it does.  If it does matter then who should it matter to?  With "their" logic (the famous non-existant they) Giftedness is only supposed to matter to people who were born without the giftedness.  It should not be know about by the gifted themselves, or acknowledged to their neighbors.  But it it must never be hidden and should be used for some legitimate purpose.  

Someone in that first gifted parenting forum accused me of having a "giftedness fetish" (for putting a gifted label on baby too young).  I actually ask myself if it's sheltering or bizarre that I consider a gifted forum group to be some good friends.  I just posted some stuff on another forum (not the well trained mind) because the subject of education came up.  Someone said "all homeschoolers are racists whites" in response to someone considering homeschooling.  I made a couple pages of informative and funny posts refuting the nonsense.  I got the feeling my posts were way too long for the viewers to read, and I edited them and was concise.  They were shorter than my posts here.  I didn't get much of a conversation and out of the useful information I shared (i offered reality and resources, not arguments) the closest I got to a conversation was somebody saying, "we get it.  You're a good writer".   Here if I've got good information people use it, and I get good information here.  Is it so wrong to like that?

I read the article this thread's about.  Hoagie's posted it on Facebook.  The article didn't really seem that original.  

Val, I quoted your post because I always do talk about my kid's latest accomplishments, the relevant part to whoever I'm updating, friends, families, neighbors..and I do have a mommy brag blog with real pictures.  I post most of the pics here too so y'all don't have to look @ my blog since I don't really talk on it so much, it's more of a record.  I do most of my talking here.

Hope this post doesn't seem like I'm at a lost for what to do about it.  I don't feel that way.  I'm just pointing out the irony. Also, I'm worrying about the guidelines if the style of my long conversational posts is considered "on topic" and not violating the "no journaling" rule.

I keep coming back here because of the conversations on here. Technically I don't even have a great reason to be here, but I just love discussing all the topics. Everyone actually does research and thinks deeply.

I don't mind all the long-winded posts (I can't, since I am always writing so many), but I read well. It isn't really a chore. (Ok, I actually like all the long posts and like when things stray off-topic because we've found something else interesting to analyze.)

Although I do agree that certain online information may be uncomfortable for the child later, I think blogging about a child is different than bragging (or perceived bragging) face-to-face. If someone finds a blog annoying/threatening/boring/whatever, they can just stop reading, but having to put up with someone in real life is trickier. IMO, much of the differentiation between perceived bragging or matter-of-fact sharing depends on the history of the listener and his/her insecurities.

I see your point about sharing with family/close friends, but I guess my point is that you may have set out to share with just these people, but you're probably sharing with many others. A blog is public. Anyone can read it --- and that includes the people you said you can't talk to in real life.

There are apps with privacy settings out there (e.g. Facebook) that only let certain people in. Why choose a public blog over something with privacy settings? Or email? Etc. There are so many options.

Your daughter is very young and has no idea about how cruel people can be. Sure, she may think it's nice for you to put her pictures, etc. up for grandmother to see, but I doubt that she understands that anyone on the planet with an internet connection can also see that stuff, and that there are real consequences of that fact. What if people you or she knows read your blog and someone starts to tease her? Thanks to apps like the Wayback Machine, nothing on the internet goes away. Do you really want to risk the possibility that private stuff about her will surface when she's ten or eleven? I would have been mortified if my LOG or anything private about me was publicly available for anyone to read --- and I had no control over it.

You said you can't say things about her to people around you, but if you're using real names, what's to stop these folks from reading the blog too? How might they react to it? What if people around town start talking about her/you? IMO, your artwork and life in Alaska are different from private information about your daughter's cognitive abilities.

I feel the same way about Joyce Slaton's blog. Use it as an example: that entry she wrote is going viral among a number of gifted groups, and now lots and lots of people know that she's disappointed about one pretty big thing about her (named) child. There's a high chance that this will get back to her daughter eventually. She revealed private information about her daughter to anyone in the world, and the little girl is the one who's going to have to live it down.

What if the I'm-tired-of-hearing-about-your-gifted-kid-types find your blog and make it go viral as an example of a bragging mom who wants to show everyone that her kid is better than theirs?

Public blogging about a child's giftedness (or lack thereof) may not seem negative to the writer, but the invasion of privacy and resultant damage are all in the eye of the person who was written about. And who now has no way to put the genie back in the bottle.

Just my 2c.

Which is why this forum is the only public place on the web where I post under a non-trivially decoded alias.

Although... I know that after spending a while in a forum I can start identifying quite a few writers by voice alone. I wonder when that ability will be 1) automated and 2) widely available.

It already is but no one has bothered to do it in these settings. There are a ton of programs which analyze text, tone and voice.

DeHe

Or at least, if they have, they haven't publicised the fact... < spooky music >

I agree with this; we try to be careful about identifying information.

The line between "just telling it like it is" and bragging depends on the context. In general, we avoid the topic of giftedness with other parents, because it nearly always comes across very poorly. I don't think this is "hiding" abilities: I think this is basic discretion.

DeeDee

I agree re: identifying info and discretion. Obvious or implied pride + statements about kiddos' advancement tend to be a grating combo for many parents.

I feel like I can't say ANYTHING about what Butter is doing, in or out of academics, without people taking it the wrong way. I have no idea what is actually "average" or "normal". Each time I think I do, I usually get a cold slap of reality. Additionally, Butter isn't one of those high acheivers or work producers and few people I know IRL "get it" at all. It's actually quite sad and lonely for me, though I've been able to shelter her from most of it so far...

Like...this is NOT a brag, but a true questioning as a person who didn't get their hands on musical instruments until 8th grade...Butter got her violin just before holiday break and only had ONE class session with it. Mr Mo teaches at about 5 schools in our district and said the group at Butter's school is his most advanced group (mostly 4th graders and up) and most of them do not take outside lessons. I only ask her to practice about 15-20 min a day. When we came back from break, Mr Mo says she is right on track with everyone else. Now, she is not playing any Mozart or anything, but would you call that "average"? That seems not average to me...

The worst is Girl Scouts, where I feel she is under a magnifying glass by my supposed "co-leaders" who mostly don't understand her unique way of looking at the world and think she is "acting superior" or like she is too good to do things like everyone else *sigh*

SOmetimes I wish I had a cloak of invisibility for her

I should be able to brag about her some, be proud of her and mention her accomplishments without others thinking I am insulting them or comparing her to their kids...

My darling friend, we need to have lunch and you can brag away. Besides I need my rowing buddy.
Butter is thriving being in her own environment and your "co-leaders" can't handle it. Can't handle that she can't be labelled as a troublemaker anymore.

yeah, I want to hear how Mr B is doing in his new place too!!!
and I think you are right...many groups seem to need a scapegoat and it's not her anymore!

That's actually not how most of the moms here relate to each other. I don't know your local norms, of course, but it would be seen as totally out of line to say "she only started violin a few weeks ago and she's already caught up!" It would be fine to say "Butter is so glad to be taking violin! The program seems just right for her!"-- a compliment to the community. Most of the moms here share information, talk about how things are going in a vague general way, ask each other questions about extracurricular opportunities or vacation destinations; they do not offer specifics about their children's achievements, because it's considered inappropriate here (in my community).

I have a few close friends with whom I can be open about the full good-and-the-bad, and I talk to them about it. But it is absolutely not the stuff of the conversations at school dropoff and pickup or before the PTA meeting.


I think this is an opportunity to do some social skills training for her. If she is doing things that make other children feel funny, she can be taught why this is and how not to do it. This is not a matter of "not being herself," but again, about discretion and how to fit in better by not hurting others' feelings. (Wait until you are sure that kid is interested in science before talking about the insides of stars with them! is a good piece of social information for her to have.)

If it's just the parents, you may need a combination of discretion training for her (learning to participate) and voluntary discretion for you, if you want Girl Scouts to continue to be a viable option.

I think that's kind of just part of life in a community.... neither good nor bad, just a "what is" thing.

DeeDee

From an email today:

<One Nice Thing About Egotists: They Don't Talk About Other People.<>>

Yes, I'd have to mostly agree with this.

I do occasionally find it a drag to have to censor what I say, but at the same time, I also recognize that to not censor would be iffy in terms of social appropriateness.

When other people are being braggy--it's okay, because I don't want to be LIKE those braggy people. However, sometimes an accomplishment is shared openly and with joy and other receive it purely and openly, and that's the only time it feels a little hard.

(It's probably worth mentioning that my kids are extroverts and tend to openly display their smarts. I can't really hide their lights under a bushel anyway.)

The worst time for us so far was when we were deciding whether to switch DD to the gifted magnet. I had to be somewhat open because everyone knows what the school is, and I got many weird responses.

I'd be more likely to call that "polite teacher" than anything else.

I'm confused. Do you mean she isn't where everyone else and he is "just being nice"? He didn't say she was better than anyone else or say she was a prodigy or anything. But this is what I mean...he doesn't have to let her into this class, it's actually for 4th grade and up. So, I assume, if she wasn't cutting it, why wouldn't he tell me the truth and say she's not ready or something.

DeeDee-it's not Butter that would be hurting anyone's feelings. It's more like when she isn't doing exactly what the others are, the other adults are coming up to me, asking what HER PROBLEM is..."Who does she think she is?" And it's not like she is breaking rules or anything.

And I disagree that she should wait and find out what the others are interested in before speaking up. You probably don't mean it this way, but I'm hearing that I should try to get her to "fit in" and act more like the other kids? I spent my own young life doing that and it was awful...not to mention, it's obvious to me that they sense she is different. It' also complicated by the fact that, in the classroom with the other girls, she was labeled a trouble maker and scapegoat, so I think some of that is persisting.

It's not like I go around saying she is better or smarter or something like that, but we have struggled and suffered for so long, I guess I feel that if someone really IS my friend, they would hear about her recent happiness and better fit in the new school and be happy for us, not think I am bragging.

If saying "We no longer get those crummy phone calls from school" is bragging, well, I guess I am then.

It's entirely possible that your kid is a violin prodigy, requiring neither instruction nor practice to perform as well as kids who have had both. Or it's entirely possible that the teacher just wanted to reassure you that she was on track to be successful in the class.

("There are plenty of kids like yours, so she'll be fine" is a comment that works at both ends of the spectrum, as well as for all the kids in between.)

2giftgirls, this is going to sound harsher than I mean it. I understand "different," and I understand the need for everybody to be accepted as they are. (I posted on that within the past few days, actually.)

However, in my view it's a two-way street. If we want acceptance, we also have to try to play by the social rules. My DS might never make it all the way to "fitting in"-- but he tries really hard, and he is included and accepted, and has a few real friends. One reason he has those friends is that he's worked to learn the things he needs to interact with them and be a friend.

By late elementary, friendships are increasingly based not on proximity or parental connections, but on commonly held interests. Having no common interests vastly reduces the opportunities for friendship. This doesn't mean DS has given up any of his unusual academic hobbies; it only means that he's also learned about topics and games that interest his friends, and it's turned out that some of these interest him too-- a real win for him.

Some of it is also participation and ability to engage: both skills that our DS has worked hard on, and he's not done yet.


I know (believe me) how judgmental other people can be when one's child appears to act different, and there is no ready explanation to offer them. Our family has been through some bumpy times (understatement), and I am quite sure there are still people in our community who think our whole family is beyond the pale. This is not nice to experience.

It is still likely the case, though, that as your DD gets older, not participating in what the others are doing will increasingly be seen as disrespectful: not only to her peers, but also to whatever adult is organizing the event. Peers are likely to note her disinterest in their activities and label her as odd, or just ignore her because she's shown that she isn't one of them. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, just observing how these things often tend to work. It is socially stigmatizing to not join a group activity if you are part of the group that is doing the activity.


I'm not saying you should try for a total personality makeover. I'm saying you might try to gently help her find her way into those social relationships that it sounds like she's on the margins of. This could involve acquiring some new skills and interests, none of which is likely to be harmful if it's approached positively.

Social skills are as much a life skill as reading or math; they smooth the way. Part of this skill set is knowing what other people are expecting you to do, and judging when it's best to go along and when it's possible or desirable to do your own thing. Most kids seem to make this judgment effortlessly. Some don't.


I'm happy for you, and relieved that she's suffering less in the new environment. That has to be huge progress for your whole family.

I'm also glad, though, that you are pursuing evaluation, because if a child is reluctant to engage with a group, there's sometimes a developmental reason, and if that is true in your DD's case, it would be better to know than not.

Best wishes, really,
DeeDee

This is a good opportunity for the use of one of my favorite tactics... turning the absurd question back on the questioner: "I dunno... what's YOUR problem?" "Who do you think YOU are?"

Or, there's always the a-stupid-question-deserves-a-stupid-answer tactic: "Today, she thinks she's Hermione from Harry Potter. Yesterday she was Professor Trelawney, which was a lot of fun. Why do you ask?"

Finally, there's the overly-honest tactic: "Her problem is that her Girl Scout troop is full of the children of obnoxious bitches."

The appropriate tactic really depends on how angry you want your audience to be.


It sounds like there's too much exploration of the territory where she's different, and not enough exploration of the territory where she's the same. People from all walks of life have things in common, and finding those things is the most important part of successful socialization.

For the record, the best man in my wedding remains a very close friend of mine since I met him in 10th grade. I graduated near the top of my class; he graduated as a functional illiterate. From a cognitive perspective, we're QUITE different. But there are a great many things I value in him apart from his political ideas or his take on the latest NASA discoveries.

This is a really great discussion! My kids are still very young (21 months and 3 1/2), but they stand out as being very different from other children their age. I long ago took the stance of never discussing milestones or things they were saying/doing with anyone other than my husband and my parents. I never even discuss these things with my brother. His son is almost 8, but it appears my 3 year old has already surpassed him in math and reading skills. I don't see anything good coming out of discussing these things. Anyone that comes into contact with the kids can plainly see they are different and highly intelligent - there is no need to bring it up or remind people. Most people with children just do not want to hear it.

I won't lie if someone asks me directly. There have been many occasions for strange looks and questions when we've been out in public and the kids have just been being themselves. Like at a family reunion when my 1 1/2 year old read the words on my Aunt's sweatshirt... she about passed out. I could tell she wanted to take my daughter around and show everyone, but I quickly tried to change the subject before she could whisk her away. Still, people will talk - there isn't much you can do about that.

We are considering enrolling our son in a private gifted kindergarten. We aren't referring to it as a gifted school, but just as a private school. When asked, we say we like their small classroom sizes and we think that's a better match for our kid's personality than the larger public school classrooms. This is totally true, and an important reason. It also isn't putting down the public school option or making it sound elitist, we are just saying this particular private school is a better fit. We just leave out the part about the advanced cirriciulm and their expertise in dealing with exceptionally gifted children!

I was labeled as gifted as a child. I did sometimes find it hard to relate to my peers, but I had some older friends and I also found a way to develop positive relationships with friends my own age. I was in camp fire girls, and I remember just always being shocked by how ...er... uninformed my fellow camp fire girls seemed. But this was an important life lesson. I had to learn to connect with people on some level. Maybe these girls didn't want to talk about math - but they knew a lot about riding horses, or make-up (for example) that I didn't. I remember I wrote a play for our group because I knew they were good with make up and costumes - it even included a musical number because one of them had an amazing voice. I became friends with these girls, and they accepted me.

Learning to connect with people is such an important life skill. 2giftgirls, I think it's great you have your daughter in girl scouts! With work and patience, I think she can find ways to connect with these girls and develop friendships. Music is great for that too - it can really be a place for some gifted kids to shine!

I am worried about my 3 1/2 year old's social skills. He considers adults to be his friends. He is finally cultivating a friendship with a girl in his montessori class that is 6. Kids his own age, though, he seems 100% uninterested in. He's still very young, of course, so I am hoping it'll get better. But I know that highly gifted kids sometimes struggle socially, and I do worry that is a path he is heading down. I'm not too worried - just slightly above the normal baseline "mother worry" levels.

Anyway, back to the original topic at hand.... no, I make a serious effort to not brag. I focus on more socially neutral topics, but I'm honest if asked directly.

Phew! I sure wrote a lot!

I have in the last few months been told by people That I Have Just Met how smart their kids are. At a school get-to-know-you earlier this year, I had no less than 4 people tell he how smart their child was. The other day, a mom I had JUST been introduced to worked in that her daughter gets all As/A+s. Last weekend, a different mom, who AGAIN I had just met, managed to let me know that her son was so smart that "everything he touches turns to gold". OK. I'm flabbergasted. I never say a WORD, although I am starting to get the giggles every time a parent "gets to the brag" before the 2 minute threshold.

We have 3 family members who we share with, and who are very supportive.

This weekend someone was amazed that the Womb Raider (13mos) was using a straw to drink. We just said thanks.

I have a photo of Mr W when he was 4 mos old holding a juice box and sucking it down. For this reason, we never bring up his milestones in public.

Her brightness is accessible to most people, where Mr W's is not. To go around bragging about him would brand us as nuts to most people while making many of the parents insecure.

If any thing, I think that I tend to go too far in the other direction. This past weekend, I had to laugh when DD's music teacher pulled me aside and said that she didn't think that I appreciated how unusually bright my DD is.

knute--DD's preschool teachers called a conference with us to inform us in hushed, awed tones that DD was gifted. We sort of giggled about this afterwards. They suggested we get her IQ tested right then. She was three, so we didn't.

I try very hard not to talk about my kids academic situations (or their milestones or unique ways of thinking), preferring that they just blend in with their grade peers and their older friends. But, a lot of people have figured it out over time, having heard about the acclerations -- especially subject. For some reason, this means that a lot of parents like to tell me how smart their kids are. What I've found over the years is that, if a parent talks loudly to me about it, their child is a high-achiever (and, usually, the parent is insecure), but if a parent whispers it to me, their child is more than likely gifted.

In fact, a good friendship of mine was ruined because, when my DD skipped a grade, this friend started incessantly telling me how wonderfully advanced her kids were, while simultaneously insulting our educational decisions.

And so we try to keep it secret how old our kids are (unless asked directly) because that brings up all kinds of questions and, ultimately, judgements by others.

Was anyone else here desperate to blend in as a kid? I was. I didn't think the same way almost everyone else did, and it was so obvious, and was such a huge barrier for me.

As an example, I was taunted for using "big words," yet I had idea what kids were talking about. I didn't realize when I was six that my vocabulary was so different. As I got older, I thought about different stuff than my peers and got accused of "thinking too much."

This isn't a whingey post about how tough I had it, but rather a way of making a related point, which is that when parents brag, their kids can suffer. My parents never bragged about me, but if they had, my frustrations would have been magnified and the situation would have been even worse.

So, it might seem wonderful to a parent to tell the world how bright her child is, but the child might see things very differently. Kids don't typically need someone advertising the fact that they're really incredibly different from almost everyone around them.

I agree. I don't think some parents think about how their "bragging" can hurt their kids. The parent mentioned earlier in this thread saying everything their kid "touched turns to gold"?? Yuck!! How will the kid handle it when something he touches merely turns to silver?

On the other hand, I don't think my parents handled it the best way either. They told me that all the kids in my school got 99th percentile on all their standardized tests and that an IQ of 152 was very "typical". I think it made it more confusing and frustrating for me when it was quite evident that I was actually different than most of my peers. I remember when I was 6 or 7 I was thinking either (a) all tests are extremely flawed and meaningless and/or (b) my parents clearly didn't understand percentiles, normal curves, standard deviations, or even the most basic principles of statistics. (I was sort of obsessed with math.) LOL!

So I think my (well meaning) parents went too far the other way - they pretended I wasn't gifted (although they enrolled in gifted programming and a special University enrichment - etc).

I'm sure there is a good middle ground - and most of us are striving to find it.

Yeah, I got that whole "big words" thing as a kid. Of course, being dirt poor and an undersized boy didn't help me in social circles, either. I never had more than two friends at a time before 8th grade.

Ultimately I found social success by consciously blending my "big words" with foul language and slang (go figure... check the nickname), and embraced an absurd sense of humor. In this way I still came off as smart, but not too good for people.

DD7 is doing reasonably well for herself socially with two of those three accommodations, the missing one being the foul language, so good for her. Of course, she's also not undersized, a boy, nor dirt poor.

Thank you so much for all the thoughtful, honest conversation. It's been wonderful to share a bit in each of your experiences.

And now, based one something that happened yesterday, I am going to start bragging more.

Yesterday my youngest came home and started telling me a story about something that happened at school, how one of the boys in his class was making fun of him for being dumb. My son's comment? "And he's one of the smart boys. Not like me."

Not like him? He really thought that. He thought that because of his dysgraphia and dyslexia and the challenges he has due to the learning disability that he wasn't one of the smart ones.

I realize that we have had to focus so much on what he has had to overcome, that we haven't done a lot of "bragging". That coupled with the self-censoring that came from raising two other gifted kids.

So from today forward, my kid is going to hear me brag just a wee bit more about his successes so he stops believing he's not smart or capable of great things.

The word "brag" can be used in different ways, and I'd say that there is bragging that might be all right depending on context, and there is bragging that always reflects poorly on the bragger, just as there are good and bad sorts of pride.

brag
1. to use boastful language; boast: He bragged endlessly about his high score.

boast
1. to speak with exaggeration and excessive pride, especially about oneself.
2. to speak with pride (often followed by of ): He boasted of his family's wealth.

pride
1. a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
...
3. a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4. pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.

I think it's crucial that high-ability children have a proper sense of their own abilities and good self-esteem.

Yes.

This is a very different project from making sure the neighbors know what amazing thing little Johnny just did.

DeeDee

I find that my DD seems to be very confused about her ability level WRT others. She sometimes says she is not good at anything. This may be her digging for reassurance--I don't know. She knows that she gets straight As and that virtually every school paper is a 100%, so it does seem that she must know she is good at school, but I think she regards her success as soemwhat suspect somehow. Anyway, yesterday we were discussing how hard she is working on an athletic skill and I casually brought up the fact that I loved seeing her work hard on things because I've noticed that a lot of school things come easily to her and don't require her to work all that hard. She immediately agreed, with a sort of relieved tone in her voice.

Confession: she goes to a gifted magnet but I still haven't really explained to her what the word means.

It's hard with the 2e kids. I ran into this with DD9 who also is dyslexic and dysgraphic. She periodically asks me questions trying to figure out how she fits into her gifted class. She asks me if I think certain kids are smart. She then asks whether her being able to grasp a math concept (or whatever else) more quickly than those kids means that she is smart too. I told DD that she is very smart but the things that she is incredibly good at are not honored in elementary school, i.e seeing complex patterns, spatial reasoning, etc.

We've also run into an incredibly rude parent who still can't understand why my DD is in the gifted class when DD reads at a lower level than this woman's kid. Oh, I admit it was so tempting to brag about DD's IQ scores to her but I kept my mouth shut. I just smiled and said that obviously DD's strengths lie in different areas.

On a brighter note, DD9 recently had an achievement that high-achieving, hard-to-live-up-to DD11 has not done yet. You better believe that DD9 got lots of recognition from the family for that one.

This topic has been difficult for me. With my first child, I was really quiet and did not say much at all! I think my silence was partly due to not understanding what was going on. I did not know anything about "gifted"... I was also silent at school until 4th grade when things fell apart. I think my silence was detrimental to my first child, both in school and her views of herself. With my second I do not want to do that! So I try and "brag" so that my child can hear me tell of good things she has done. But ultimately I see it as practice for how to talk about this stuff for when she starts school and I need to advocate. I am not the most social person and do not always know how to state things gracefully. So I think at times my bragging falls wrong. At times I have to really work up the courage to say anything at all. So of course by that time I have missed the socially correct time to say it and it really falls awkward. I guess I am also not willing to hang out with people who will not allow me the room to brag. So in some ways its a great way to find out who I want to hang out with at this point in time. I really appreciate my friends who I do not feel like I am bragging at all with and that sense of competition is not there. I am not sure how that happens at this point except I think often they have kids who are also gifted and know it. Don't know though.... funny in a few years it won't matter anyways as it seems that its okay to brag about what your kid is doing in college:-)

A friend and I were chatting about this very thing recently. I would much rather my child be getting B's and working his hardest than smooth sailing A's that mean he can do work he was capable of 2 - 3 years ago.

There is only false self-validation in being able to show that you can do something that you already mastered ages ago and then receiving high praise for that.

Real self-worth/achievement comes from overcoming obstacles... and feeling proud that you learnt something from your experience. IMO of course

I disagree. I think there are community norms about what to discuss in what context, and that these do not exist only in one person's mind, but are mutually agreed on between persons.

DeeDee

I largely agree with Annette. I think that there are, also, community "rules" about what's acceptable - but these are subtle and vary a lot between communities, so this isn't always helpful. In the end, saying something positive about one's child practically always carries some risk of being interpreted as bragging. One just has to choose whether, and if so when, to take that risk.

A community where I particularly notice this - I mean, that different people have different, vehement, opinions about what's acceptable - is Mumsnet (where I lurk quite often, but don't post, partly because I'm aware of not really getting the social norms and have seen what happens to people who don't get them and post anyway!) Do a google search for
"stealth boasting" site:mumsnet.com
or if you're feeling really strong, for
"stealth boasting" gifted site:mumsnet.com
!

The Mercedes statement is a good example of one that would be taken as a boast by most people who drive non-status-symbol cars. People don't ordinarily inject info on the make of car into such a statement. The needless and oddly placed info, plus the status symbol, equals a likely and reasonable perception of an intent to brag that one has a Mercedes. One might as well mention the leather seats and premium stereo too.

The thing revealed about an offended parent of an ordinary child, upon a mention of giftedness of another's child, is primarily that the offendee values intelligence, and doesn't take pleasure in other people openly asserting the superiority of the others' children in this way. Not necessarily a gray area, just basic human nature of many parents.

Now, it might seem to be mostly in the eye of the beholder when the speaker doesn't know the gifted status of the listener's child. As parents of gifted kids we'd love to mention things about our children just as parents of ND kids do, and a normal part of that for us might involve mention of giftedness, or making it obvious. Still, due to the rareness of giftedness, it's highly likely that the other parent will have a child that's non-gifted. With exceptionally and profoundly gifted children, the likelihood approaches near certainty that the other's child will be lower in intelligence and/or achievement. Under those circumstances, whether it says something or not about the other parent, be prepared for an innocent drop-in of a key detail to be taken as bragging.

True, the Merc example perhaps wasn't the best. But I still agree with Annette that there *are* many such examples. Here's one. You're with a group of parents that you know to varying degrees, and one of them says her child has read the HP series 5 times and she wishes he'd read something else, but he keeps not liking things she suggests. You say, "My son really enjoyed the Philip Pullman His Dark Materials trilogy just after his HP phase." She doesn't know how old your child is, and your remark is relevant, true and useful; she won't perceive your remark as a brag. Someone else in the group, however, knows that your child is 6 and in the meantime her 6yo is struggling with The Cat in the Hat. She quite likely will - that is, her emotions will be almost the same as if you had deliberately bragged that your child was reading far better than hers. I think this kind of thing really happens. I think we do have to try to be sensitive about it - though it isn't easy - but I also think we shouldn't assume that there is fault, every time anyone feels they've been bragged at. Hurt is sometimes a side-effect, and sometimes it can't be avoided, and sometimes it shouldn't be avoided.

Indeed, if we wanted to avoid such hurt at all costs, this site shouldn't exist (or should be readable only after you've acquired a password by a complicated protocol of secret handshakes). The mere existence of our children can be perceived as a brag by people who are in an emotional place to perceive it that way - as anyone who's ever been bullied for being one of them knows only too well.

Yeah, I wouldn't say this unless I knew I was among other parents of kids who are really strong readers. However, I think I might say something like "The His Dark Materials series is a good one for kids who are done with HP" or "I've heard good things about the His Dark Materials series."

With people who know my child extremely well, I'm less careful, because they see what she's doing and it would be a little silly to pretend otherwise. But I still am cautious.

See, though, I chose the example with care so that it couldn't be wriggled out of so easily :-). Your version is strictly less helpful to the person you're actually talking to than mine - this parent has already tried multiple books without success, so an "I've heard" or an unsupported assertion is not nearly as useful as an actual positive experience by an actual child - she probably chose the previous books on the basis of similar assertions and "people say" stuff, after all! Besides, both the versions you suggest have their own problems, which to my mind are worse than the disease they're trying to cure. The first is just arrogant: who are you to make blanket statements about which books are good for "kids who are done with HP" in general? I mean, maybe if you were a librarian it would be OK to say that, but I would certainly recoil from someone who said this kind of thing otherwise. The second feels to me like lying by misleading, if the only person you've heard it from is your child who's read the books!

Oh, I meant "finished with HP," not "outgrown HP." Also, I have actually read these books, so it wouldn't be like I would be asked for more details and have to reveal that I didn't know what I was talking about. But I didn't say that because in most cases I might not have read the book. FTR, though, my mom is a children's librarian and my friends generally know I'm a kids' book nerd, so there is that.

But yikes, you would recoil? It seems really arrogant to you? Huh. I wouldn't find "x series is good for kids who have finished that one" to be arrogant in the least. The only nonarrogant way is to talk about your kid reading it??

Let me start by saying that I'm finding this thread thought-provoking and possibly even useful, and am arguing as a way to clarify my own thinking. I hope everyone reading is doing so in the same spirit; I certainly don't mean to offend.

(Yes, I assumed that was what you meant actually.) You're probably fairly safe, then, but the suggestions might not work so well for someone else :-) (In actual fact, I too have read these books, but I could have picked something I only knew about from DS.)

Yes, I'm afraid I really would. To me it's like any other case where someone who, as far as I know, has experience only of her own children makes blanket statements about children in general. Try "Children need regular bedtimes", "Boys so love running around", "Children who like potatoes like carrots, too". (I mean, I might not notice - most people, me included, slip into talking in generalisations sometimes, there's one ;-) - and if I did notice I might think you were daft rather than arrogant, but I don't find it advisable to generalise like that.

Suppose, for the same of argument, that you're recommending a book about which the only thing you know is that your own child loved it shortly after the HP phase. Now imagine how the conversation might go on in each case:

Version 1:
Her: blah blah Harry Potter blah blah
You: My son loved [book] just after his HP phase.
Now, as far as I can see, the only possible difficult continuation is:
Her: Ah, that's interesting. How old is he?
at which point you're in a slightly tight spot, but at least you've been open. I'd probably go for:
You: He's a bit younger than yours, but it sounds as though they have similar tastes. [And change subject ;-) ]

Version 2:
Her: blah blah Harry Potter blah blah
You: [Book] is good for children who've finished HP.
Her: Ah, that's interesting. Why do you say that?
You: Well, my son loved it, anyway. [Nothing else you can say, by hypothesis]
Now don't you feel a bit of a prat, having been pushed into revealing that your general statement was based on one kid? And you're still open to "How old is he?" at this point, so it's not as though you've gained anything...

Version 3:
Her: blah blah Harry Potter blah blah
You: I've heard that [book] is good for reading after HP.
Her: Ah, that's interesting. Who did you hear that from?
You: Err, my son. [Nothing else you can say, by hypothesis]
And again, you feel like a prat, and you're still open to "and how old is he?".

All in all, looks to me like "O what a tangled web we weave, when first we practise to deceive".

I don't say that's the only nonarrogant way, but TBH I find the idea that one should be scrabbling around for a way to conceal the obvious underlying fact, that one's own child enjoyed the books, sad and faintly ridiculous. The concealment "smells of the lamp" to me, since it's so much more natural to say staightforwardly that your kid read it, if that's the case, and when you tie yourself in knots to conceal some piece of information, IME all too often it comes out anyway and the result is worse than if you'd been straightforward in the first place. It may well be partly just that I'm not good at doing the concealment, I admit!

Good points everyone, including Annette. I seem to just disagree on a few minor points, relating to scope more than general attitude. It seems to me that a good communicator thinks of the likely perceptions of his words-- "good", "bad", with certain contextual knowledge of the the speaker or without, etc.

So, for example, if one has a quite precocious reader and is speaking where it's likely that others with normal or struggling readers know that, the simple fact of mentioning the precociousness is more likely to cause offense than in the absence of specific info about one's child. The information of each message includes the context in which it is spoken and heard. The mention of the precociousness may be explicit, in which it's more likely to be taken as overt bragging, or implicit based on circumstances, in which it may be taken as "stealth boasting".

There are definitely circumstances where I'd agree that probable offense is unavoidable, and when one shouldn't remain mum to avoid it. And there are definitely people who are too quick to take offense, who shouldn't be catered to. I just think that this is an understandably touchy subject for a great many people, and that it's best all around if we try to be tactful. In my experience there are a great many times when a thoughtful person could easily avoid offense that seems to be routinely given.

I don't see the Mercedes analogy as an appropriate one. It's just another car, only an outrageously expensive one. To me, saying you're driving a Mercedes is just like saying your child is attending the private school whose primary qualification for attendance is the ability to pay an extravagant tuition.

Our children are more like all-electric vehicles. They look the same and do some of the same things as other cars, but the technology involved is completely different, so our experiences and challenges with them are completely different.

So, if someone asks you to make a three-hour car trip, it's virtually impossible to have this conversation without mentioning that your car is different, battery won't last that long, takes too long to charge, and there's a dearth of charging stations. Whether the listener decides you're bragging about your eco-friendliness is beyond your control.

By the same token, my boss needs to know why I keep requesting time off to have meetings with DD's school. It's impossible to have that conversation with him without mentioning giftedness... unless I want to just lie outright (I don't).

Mentioning giftedness isn't strictly necessary there, unless further questions make it unavoidable. You could open with a response about special educational needs instead of specifically mentioning giftedness. That might give the impression that your child is on the other end of the spectrum in some way, of course (that wouldn't bother me personally). I think it is reasonable to mention giftedness in your scenario, just not necessarily necessary.

I was hoping for a good discussion, and i have not been disappointed!

Ok. For the record, I call my vehicle a Pilot. Not because I want to brag or point out what I drive but because I live in a house with two college kids and a husband who all have vehicles and it just seems bit clunky to say, "Your dented used to be white foreign made sedan is blocking my somewhat newer blue rather large vehicle that can seat eight" rather than, "Your Camry is blocking my Pilot". No bragging - just what it is.

If someone else overhears me and chooses to feel envy over the fact that I drive a Pilot, that is their choice based on their value system and whether they've had victory over their own nature to not be satisfied with their own vehicle or lack of one. I cannot control their emotions or assumptions, but I can be delicate - which is different than pretending I drive a junker so they don't feel bad. Saying something like, " the parking lot at the school in my neighborhood is full of muscle cars, Hummers, Beemers and Porches" would be boasting about financial status.

I think the same is true for us as parents of kids who often have the equivalent of the Ferrari of IQ's. If we are boasting, it is not only indelicate but cruel. But to pretend our kids are like the old VW minivan of IQ's is dishonest and can make our kids think we're ashamed of who they really are.

So this example is chock full of holes, I am sure. But This entire conversation has helped me understand that to some degree I've been guilty of hiding who my kid is - to the detriment of their own perception of their own value,

Why is it okay to brag about sports related abilities and not about intelligence?

Well, it would bother me. In the same sense that I'm not going to deliberately make my daughter out to be more than she is, I'm not going to make her out to be less than she is, either.

Besides, how would it be when it makes the rounds of the office that my daughter....., she comes to visit me at work, and someone makes an unthinking comment?

My statement isn't about kids with special education needs, it's about gossip and the common stereotypes about kids with special education needs, but as the listener you're free to find offense wherever you like, and thanks for illustrating my point.

Well, sports prowess is visible and relatively easy to measure in essentially an objective manner.

Intelligence is more fluffy, without clear boundaries to measure.

Plus, intelligence relates to the inner experience of individuals, not to the outer world of that is visible and basically sensible to all.

So you live in a magical realm where if the words "special needs" were used, nobody in a large office would associate that terminology with an offensive stereotype?

Because if you live in the world the rest of us live in, then I find the act of pretending offensive stereotypes don't exist to be offensive.

ColinsMum--well, with these books, I do know other kids who've read them and liked them so my words would be based on more than just my DD (who hasn't read them, actually!) I guess the example is a somewhat inapplicable one because I know both series. I would be more careful with books I didn't know--for instance, DD is reading Inkheart, which might also be good for a kid who likes HP, but I can't recommend it because I haven't read it and really can't comment more than vaguely on it.

FWIW, this all pretty much happened to me last summer, when DD was really crazy about a series and talked about it endlessly such that I mentioned it on FB when she wrote fanmail to the author. Some friends with kids the same age went out and checked out the book, thinking DD's recommendation was worth following. I then got comments on "Uh...my kids cannot possibly read that book. Now I have to read it aloud to her." So...once bitten, twice shy.

FWIW, I have used the phrase "special educational needs" to describe my DD. However, I feel it's risky, because people may well eventually find out that she goes to a gifted school, and then I look possibly...weird, to some people, I think. I would really only use it to someone who is unlikely to learn the actual situation.

I don't know about Iucounu, but I'm sure nobody in my large office building would associate "special needs" (or "special educational needs" which was the term actually used - there is a difference) with an offensive stereotype.

How do you think any often-stereotyped group gets *out* of a state in which some ignorant people stereotype them offensively? I'd have thought, by more sensible people showing that they're happy to be associated with the group, e.g., not inclined to hide that their children are in it.

My son has special educational needs, and I'm happy to say so. (Not disinterestedly, of course - where I live, other special educational needs are typically better catered for than giftedness, so making the point that giftedness is a SEN has several benefits.)

Er... I don't know any adult that associates "special educational needs" with derogatory stereotypes. Not a single one.

If I worked in an office where that would be the expected response, I would most definitely find another job.

And another thread goes completely off the rails.

Special ed. and special needs mean low IQ. Sure, gifted kids have special educational requirements, but the term is used in the United States to mean low IQ and/or significant learning disabilities.

Low IQ (special ed. and special needs kids) face barriers that gifted kids just don't, even if they're 2E. Trying to redefine the terms by saying that gifted kids also are "special needs" could come across as a veiled attempt to pique someone's curiosity and as stealth bragging (my kid has special needs but not those kinds of special needs). Not saying that's the intent. Just saying, as has been noted here, that someone could reasonably infer it.

I think that's what Iucounou was getting at (correct me if I'm wrong). It was a kind of a subtle point in its own in-your-face way. Sometimes a jarring statement gets people thinking.

Yep. Went from really glad I started this thread to really sorry in just a few comments. I'm checking out - thanks for all who provided thoughtful, considerate replies to my question.

Hi everyone - I edited and deleted a few posts on this thread. I realize that people were using a few words and phrases to illustrate certain points, but others reading the thread may be offended by their use. Please send me a message if you have any questions.

Mark

Gifted children in Oregon are legally identified as a special need population.

ETA: TAG is defined under the law as special education.

I disagree--it could mean dyslexia, ADHD, Asperger's, CAPD, dysgraphia, or a host of other things that kids on this forum have. Could also mean asthma or a wheelchair or diabetes. I certainly do not equate "special needs" with low IQ at all, and I don't think that's its current use.

However, I agree that it is somewhat risky to use it to mean gifted, wih no 2E issues.