Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Behaviour & WPPSI Test Result HELP!!

My kids won't leve our unfenced yard, but have nowhere to go.

FWIW, my DW and I have a no because-I-said-so policy. If DD6 asks for us to explain a rule, we explain it. If we can't explain it, we probably shouldn't have it.

The exception to this policy is where it's not age-appropriate to discuss it. In these cases, we tell her we'll discuss it with her when she's older. Because these situations are few and far between, she accepts that. Also, we've highlighted situations in which she wasn't ready to learn certain things before she'd learned certain other things first. Because she has seen and appreciated that lesson, she accepts that reasoning. She also accepts it when we need compliance now, and it's not an appropriate time to talk in depth, and we tell her we'll talk about it later.

And the reason why she accepts these exceptions is trust. Because we go out of our way to explain our rules to her, we have built up her trust in us as authority figures. When our rules have solid logical foundations, and she sees how she benefits from these rules, she complies not because we said so, but because she sees how the rule was a good idea to start with. When we need her immediate compliance, she trusts us because our rules normally come from good reasons, so we probably have good reasons now, even if they're not immediately obvious to her. When we tell her we'll answer her questions later, she trusts that we will, because we do so consistently. She usually doesn't even have to be the one to bring up the subject later.

I would also like to emphasize a point made earlier... the moment the child begins talking about self harm, it's time to involve a psychologist. Immediately.

Also, my DD began saying some of these same things when she began attending school, and found herself bored and insulted with the curriculum, and misfiring socially with her immature age-peers. So if your DS is in his first year of school, this may be where all the acting-out is coming from.

Mumofthree - what would have been a good punishment then?? The idea was to remove things he loves eg his bike. He did use his bike to go to the other childs house.

Grinity - my son has been playing in our front yard for a while now without a fence/gate/full supervision & he has never gone off.

This rings home for me - "But that isn't the place to start, because we have kids for whom breaking the rules is interesting, in and of itself"

I'm not a fan of the hand-clenching method of shopping, but I can see how it'd be useful when you are shopping with multiple children. With our only child, we just involve her in the shopping process. At certain ages where she was riding in the child seat, we'd just keep up a constant chatter with her about what we were doing, and handed her the groceries to place in the cart (anything that was less than 5 pounds and unbreakable, anyway). At later ages she wanted to push the cart, or ride in the specialty carts (Home Depot's race car carts remain a favorite) while I wheeled them around dangerously close to product displays. At other times she's helping find objects, checking items off the list (a current fave), etc.

DW doesn't do the barely-controlled cart maneuvers, but she has her own methods for having DD involved in shopping processes. An engaged child is not a bored child.

Ya, shopping with one, and a little one, is much easier. I know I also generally had more time to donthe shopping rather than trying to squeeze it between school, piano, swimming, homework and dinner... Easier to engage them when you can go at their pace, for my kids anyway. But regardless of how you like to shop - you are much better telling a child what you DO want them to do than what to stop. I find "stop! Kiss for mummy" much more effective in stopping my toddler from hitting me than "stop! don't hit me".

I most often use the hand clasping in the post office. I don't know about the US, but our post offices are turning into gift/toy/stationary shops. Taking three kids into a place like that to stand in a queue for 10-15 mins is a special kind of torture for everyone. We arent there to buy anything tangible, there is nothing to "do" and I can't engage the 5.5 yr old in fun mental games because I am busy holding the parcel and manhandling the toddler who is screaming. She just has to stand still and not touch...

I also don't let the the kids touch anything at the fruit shop. But in the supermarket, with toddler restrained and playing with the indestructibles, the 9.5th old being helpful, then yes the 5 yr old helps steer the trolley or fetches items she can identify.

But yep sometimes she just has to stand still and not touch in public places and saying "don't touch" is not that helpful.

I wonder if your son is actually ready for more responsibility and freedom. As he gets older, things that weren't tempting before will start to look more appealing. If a kid breaks the rules once, and then doesn't do it again I'm sort of impressed - that's way different from a kid who keeps doing the same rule break over and over.

Of course I do remember that my DS was creative enough to be a general pain in the .... by finding new rules to break. Looking for the exception was very reinforcing for him.

More examples, please. ( I hope I haven't scared you off,sorry if so)

Smiles,
Grinity

It all sounds really appealing Dude, and is exactly the way I remember wishing I could have been raised, but I don't believe that children become more trustful from explainations, but from actions. So much depends on personality, but seriously - if your daughter ever 'talked back' to you and said 'That ISNT an answer!' or 'That isn't FAIR, you get to eat in the living room, WHY don't I?' wouldn't you start to feel that something wasn't working?

In the long run we have to figure out how to parent the kid we have, not the kid we think have. And just when we think we have them figured out - there they go changing again!

Smiles,
Grinity

I seem to have missed at least two posts in the middle ofthe thread yesterday, not surprising when I was (am) reading on my phone while moving house.

Dude we had a similar no "because I said so" principle. But I find I say something along those lines more often now and have regular conversations with my almost 10 year old about the fact that she needs to show more respect and trust that we don't ask/instruct things she might like for the fun of it but rather always have a reason and that she needs to show that respect/trust and do as she's asked and not start a debate at an inappropriate time. And the 5.5 yr old is about 5 mins behind the eldest there too. It's really quite frustrating having raised strong minded children who expect an explanation now that life has gotten to the point that it often isn't possible to give one (right then). I don't think there is a deliberate lack of respect, I am pretty sure they trust and respect me more than their teachers, but with me they expect answers, while at school they just do what they are told. They are having to now learn when to ask questions and when to just do as asked.

For us "because I said so" does not equal "there is no reason" it equals "you need to be able to realize that when the toddler is having a screaming fit in a busy carpark (and we are running late for X) is not the time to ask questions, you need to do what you are told simply because I said so - and you believe me to be a reasonable and thoughtful person who must have a good reason for asking (whatever)"

SMB - if he used the bike that makes more sense. But my thoughts are that our job is to teach not to punish. Punishing doesn't teach anything other than possibly to avoid getting caught. You want him to learn how to think about safety and to follow rules as appropriate. Generally when I find myself seeking to punish I realize I am acting to appease my own anger (which yes is usually driven from my fear/love for my child), punishment is NOT for the benefit of the child. Teaching the right thing to do is for the benefit of the child.

I would remeber to think about the child's actions in a positive light and that positive intent would be the first thing I would mention. He didn't do it to make you angry, he did it because he really likes his friend and wanted to play. So say that "you really like your friend and wanted to play/missed them/had something to tell them", then explain why it's not safe (cars, strangers, nobody home, etc) and that next time he has a good idea for a playdate he has to ask an adult to help set up a time. And warn him that most of the time those play-dates might not be straightaway, it might be later that day, the next day, or even further away.

Also keep in mind that if it's he first time he may not have realized it's wrong. Children can be very literal. I still remember my aunt retelling how my cousin took himself to a friends house and when she had finished telling him off he said "but I didn't cross the road mummy I walked on the footpath the whole way" (cul de sac). I don't know what words were used but in his mind he'd been told never to cross the road and he didn't so it was ok. Maybe you told your son never to walk off and in his mind that meant the bike was ok, do you see what I am getting at?

I am much less patient about repeat offences. Particularly the 100th time (or what feels like it). This usually when I start punishing and realizing it's about me and my frustration and anger not them....

Tangent - I think the reason I don't worry about our yard being unfenced is that a fence would make no difference to my 5 or 9 yr old, they can climb anything we would be likely to erect, and often do, if they decide to roam a fence wont stop them. The only thing it might do is make them pause before chasing a ball, but i have seen my 5 yr old cry over a lost ball that was still in our yard that she knew she would not catch in time, so did not even try to chase. She was quite delighted to have it retreived for her (again with the literalness - our talks about not chasing balls seemed to have been interpretted as meannng NOONE could chase a ball that went on the road). And of course my toddler can't be unsupervised regardless of fence.

Ok now I just feel worse about my ability to parent

I should clarify with the "because I said so". Most of the time we will explain why he cant do/have this etc. There are times when he will ask for something ie go to the boy nextdoors house & I will say no. He will ask why & sometimes Ill just say cause I dont want you to so he will keep pressing. Sometimes there just isnt a reason as such - I just dont want him to go nextdoor.

Grinity - your son sounds very much like my son, always finding new rules to break just because he can. Maybe youre right, now that he is older he is wanting to test the boundaries a bit more.

Mumofthree - I can see how being positive would work. I guess its easy to go straight for the punishment rather than explain why he shouldnt have done it. He did do it again yesterday. We also dont worry about the yard being unfenced because my son is a climber so having a fence wouldnt deter him from going out.

I guess the reason for my first post was the concern about the disliking himself or wanting to kill himself. The behaviour is still a problem & we would like ways to manage it better. I feel he is different but his IQ test at this stage doesnt indicate he is gifted as such. Perhaps it is our fault as he is quite mature but we forget he is only 5 after all.