Ive posted before but I have received my sons WPPSI results.

Ok so my son has some behavioural issues I think. Last year he started school & his teacher had some issues with him & over the years we have had some issues with controlling his behaviour as well as took him to a child psycologist (not a specific gifted on though). She conducted the WPPSI IQ test & observed him & she says he has anxiety issues which we should work on.

The WPPSI came back with;

FSIQ - 103
VIQ - 109
PIQ - 100
PSQ - 104
GLC - 152

During our meetings with the psychologist she couldnt tell us why he has average cognitive skills but gifted language component.

His behaviour more recently has started to concern me though (he is 5 & half). He is constantly pushing our buttons & boundaries & doing things he knows he shouldnt & when asked why he does them he says there is something wrong with his brain. He has also mentioned things like killing himself & not liking himself. These comments are getting more & more. I do believe he isnt naughty on purpose but I dont know what to do or where to turn. No form of discipline works & im wondering if there is something "wrong with his brain"??

Please help - i am worried about my boy as I dont think the things he says are normal for a child of his age.

SMB, any mention of suicide or self-harm has to be taken very seriously. I'd suggest getting him to a pediatric psychologist ASAP.

Often IQ tests aren't that accurate on kids who have behavior issues. Maybe you should pursue evaluation with a neuropsychologist or developmental pediatrician-- knowing what's going on will help you know what to do to solve the discipline and other issues, and maybe shed light on the IQ disparity.

DeeDee

Those comments are unsettling for a parent to hear, and I am sorry.

A child psychiatrist or a neuropsychiatrist evaluation would be helpful. Maybe your pediatrician could give you a referral. If not, often these doctors have an association with a children's hospital.

The person you saw thought your child had anxiety, and anxiety untreated can cause a child to say things like that.

But so can a lot of other issues: anxiety, ADHD, Aspergers, or even a form(s)of a depression.

You will need to take your child to a medical specialist to sort it all out, and a good one will look at the entire picture: cognitive, emotional, physical, social etc.

I am no expert on this by any means, but have there been any serious life changing events that might be causing stress, which in turn might cause this behavior? When my DS9 entered kindergarten, we had moved into a new house/neighborhood, AND had a new baby in the house just a few months prior-it took us a while to figure out that all these events had caused stress on him and he acted out in school and home. Not sure if this is your case or not, but we didn't put two and two together until after the fact. We've learned that even the littlest change in environment/life can have a big impact on a child that age. Good luck and I hope you get some resolution soon!

So give some examples here of exactly what he does to push buttons and boundaries, etc and exactly what what was happening just before and how you and other adults responded.

IMH(?)O, don't ever ever ask a kid why they did something they knew they weren't supposed to do. I can't answer why I go off my diet even though I'm an articulate, experienced grown up. The fact that you ask creates - in the mind of a child who can reason well above his years - the expectation that he can answer this question. He can't. I can't. You probably can't either. So he feels that there must be something wrong with his brain, naturally.

Lately I've been meditating to help myself not be that guy who 'speaks of going South and walks North.' I explain why I meditate as: We were all born with console controllers that don't work well. By meditating, I trade mine in for a better controller - one where I actually walk North when I push the North button.

It's true that other parents of more average children can say "Why did you do that?" and get the response they are looking for - a child who acts submissive and says sorry. Your kid is different in some way that has something to do with giftedness, likely with serious other issues, but when you ask that question, he EXPECTS to be be able to answer it in some way he finds meaningful. He believes that for every question there is an answer. He pays more attention to the content of the words than, as others would do, the emotional ritual that is going on. A lot of more average kids have scripts that say something like, "When mom gets mad because I did something wrong she says X, and if I do Y, she'll calm down and everything will be fine." and they know they don't understand the content of X - they are used to it - they don't understand 99% of what adults say, they just learn algorithm by experience.


Make sense?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Grinity - what you have written makes a lot of sense, especially the bit about "He believes that for every question there is an answer." That sounds like my son - to him "i dont know" isnt an answer to a question. For example Ill say he cant do something & he will ask why & my response will be because I said so but he keeps pressing me saying thats not an answer, he needs to know why he cant do something.

Ummmm examples?? OK Recently he went over a block away to play with another child even though he knows he is not to leave our front yard & he is to tell us even if he is going next door. We have told him this many times. We will be in a shop & ill tell him not to touch something & then he does it even though ive just finished the sentence telling him not to touch.

To me its like he has "brain snaps". One minute he can be really good & the next minute he is pushing boundaries or doing things he shouldnt be. There doesnt seem to be anything in particular except boredom that sets him off.

Our response really depends on the situation & how much he has been playing up. For example with the going to the friends house a block away, we spoke to him about what he did & then we took away things he loves to do - bike, cartoons etc. No yelling or anything - just an explanation about why what he did was wrong.

The fact that you can't get him to stop 'coming after you' with a 'because I said so' is an example of him not demonstrating trust in adult guidance. When my son way young he was the same way, and I empathized and thought it was fine. Problem was that when puberty hit his logical reasoning went out the window for a few years, but he still wanted a logical explaination. Unfortunately the logical explaination no longer made sense to his hormone-adled brain. Ut - oh!!!

So we worked first on 'taking No for an answer' - we praised any bit of faith or trust he demonstrated and made a big fuss. Eventually he internalized himself as someone strong enough to live with the irrationality of life. I'm so pleased, because even if I could manage to be completely rational at all times, guess what? I can't manage all the adults he needs to interact with to get them to follow my lead.

So yeah, I do think gifted kids need to learn to 'take no for an answer' and it's fine to give an explaination at times, at OUR discretion because we find it interesting, not because we fear the barage of push back that we know will follow a 'because I said so.'

But that isn't the place to start, because we have kids for whom breaking the rules is interesting, in and of itself - which is why I highlighted the bordome comment - and if there is a lot of upset (obvious loud yelling or the quieter, more subtle worry) some of our kids find this a positive reinforcer also - remember Captian Kirk saying that even a tormentor was better than being alone with the tantalus beam?

www.startrek.com/database_article/dagger-of-the-mindCached - Similar
Star Trek Dagger of the Mind. ... When Dr. Simon van Gelder of the psychiatric staff at the Tantalus Penal Colony escapes to the U.S.S. Enterprise exhibiting ...

So even upsetting you is better than being alone with boredom for a child that has high capasity for learning about the world. You may find that you like intensity too - I did anyway.

So the place to start is to give recognition to the micro-positives and give enough healthy stimulation that there is less of a need for any stimulation at all. The 'transforming' book explains all of this in more detail. You are worth following and worth expecting to be followed. I think that inside every 'That isn't fair/That isn't right' sort of kid, there are the emotionals of a child who really would be happier being 'out of the job' of being on alert for injustice. Better to submit to the idea that the world isn't fair, but that you have the inner strength to live with that just fine.

Hope this makes sense, and hope even more that it actually helps. I know that every kid is different. Keep posting and let us know what you figure out!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

You are telling him what you don't want him to do, tell him what you DO want him to do. In the store make it clear he should not touch but after the first "don't touch the goods" my instruction is "clasp your hands together". They can't grab stuff with their hands interwoven. You've given them something to concentrate on and then you can praise them doing a good job of doing what you said. You could tell him to see how many ways he can weave his fingers together.

And consequences should be directly tied to the the behavior, unless he was riding his bike and then went off and so you have removed the bike sonhe won't be outside I am not clear how that is a good punishment and I am an adult?

I really recommend the book "easy to love, difficult to discipline" I suspect it's very similar to Grinity's fav, but it's the one i know...

Also just curious, as I didn't raise my son in a neighborhood - how many parents would expect a 5 year old to stay in the yard without a gate/fence set up unsupervised? Do other kids in the neighborhood manage this?

I didn't really expect my son at 5 to be able to restrain himself from touching things in a store for more than 5 minutes, we had phrases, like 'lookin' no touchin'' and 'no touch other people's food' that I'd repeat over and over in the grocery line. I didn't expect him to be able to keep his hands to himself unless I was providing some kind of entertainment. I'm not saying I shouldn't have had higher standards, I just believed that he was doing the best he could. Not sure why, except that there is lots of ADHD in the family, and my expectations were influenced by my memories of younger brothers. I remember that my mom often put me in charge of 'occupying' their attention so that they wouldn't do what they weren't supposed to.

shrugs and more shrugs,
Grinity

I agree with Grinity, the "put your hands together" tip I use on my 5.5 yr old who I suspect will eventually be diagnosed with inattentive ADHD, like her older sister. Shopping with my three kids is a special kind of torture. But telling her what TO do instead of what not to do results in less stress (and less likelihood of my combusting in a public place). I still have to remind her about the hands, but she can do it. If I am saying "don't touch" it has no impact at all.

My kids won't leve our unfenced yard, but have nowhere to go.

FWIW, my DW and I have a no because-I-said-so policy. If DD6 asks for us to explain a rule, we explain it. If we can't explain it, we probably shouldn't have it.

The exception to this policy is where it's not age-appropriate to discuss it. In these cases, we tell her we'll discuss it with her when she's older. Because these situations are few and far between, she accepts that. Also, we've highlighted situations in which she wasn't ready to learn certain things before she'd learned certain other things first. Because she has seen and appreciated that lesson, she accepts that reasoning. She also accepts it when we need compliance now, and it's not an appropriate time to talk in depth, and we tell her we'll talk about it later.

And the reason why she accepts these exceptions is trust. Because we go out of our way to explain our rules to her, we have built up her trust in us as authority figures. When our rules have solid logical foundations, and she sees how she benefits from these rules, she complies not because we said so, but because she sees how the rule was a good idea to start with. When we need her immediate compliance, she trusts us because our rules normally come from good reasons, so we probably have good reasons now, even if they're not immediately obvious to her. When we tell her we'll answer her questions later, she trusts that we will, because we do so consistently. She usually doesn't even have to be the one to bring up the subject later.

I would also like to emphasize a point made earlier... the moment the child begins talking about self harm, it's time to involve a psychologist. Immediately.

Also, my DD began saying some of these same things when she began attending school, and found herself bored and insulted with the curriculum, and misfiring socially with her immature age-peers. So if your DS is in his first year of school, this may be where all the acting-out is coming from.

Mumofthree - what would have been a good punishment then?? The idea was to remove things he loves eg his bike. He did use his bike to go to the other childs house.

Grinity - my son has been playing in our front yard for a while now without a fence/gate/full supervision & he has never gone off.

This rings home for me - "But that isn't the place to start, because we have kids for whom breaking the rules is interesting, in and of itself"

I'm not a fan of the hand-clenching method of shopping, but I can see how it'd be useful when you are shopping with multiple children. With our only child, we just involve her in the shopping process. At certain ages where she was riding in the child seat, we'd just keep up a constant chatter with her about what we were doing, and handed her the groceries to place in the cart (anything that was less than 5 pounds and unbreakable, anyway). At later ages she wanted to push the cart, or ride in the specialty carts (Home Depot's race car carts remain a favorite) while I wheeled them around dangerously close to product displays. At other times she's helping find objects, checking items off the list (a current fave), etc.

DW doesn't do the barely-controlled cart maneuvers, but she has her own methods for having DD involved in shopping processes. An engaged child is not a bored child.

Ya, shopping with one, and a little one, is much easier. I know I also generally had more time to donthe shopping rather than trying to squeeze it between school, piano, swimming, homework and dinner... Easier to engage them when you can go at their pace, for my kids anyway. But regardless of how you like to shop - you are much better telling a child what you DO want them to do than what to stop. I find "stop! Kiss for mummy" much more effective in stopping my toddler from hitting me than "stop! don't hit me".

I most often use the hand clasping in the post office. I don't know about the US, but our post offices are turning into gift/toy/stationary shops. Taking three kids into a place like that to stand in a queue for 10-15 mins is a special kind of torture for everyone. We arent there to buy anything tangible, there is nothing to "do" and I can't engage the 5.5 yr old in fun mental games because I am busy holding the parcel and manhandling the toddler who is screaming. She just has to stand still and not touch...

I also don't let the the kids touch anything at the fruit shop. But in the supermarket, with toddler restrained and playing with the indestructibles, the 9.5th old being helpful, then yes the 5 yr old helps steer the trolley or fetches items she can identify.

But yep sometimes she just has to stand still and not touch in public places and saying "don't touch" is not that helpful.

I wonder if your son is actually ready for more responsibility and freedom. As he gets older, things that weren't tempting before will start to look more appealing. If a kid breaks the rules once, and then doesn't do it again I'm sort of impressed - that's way different from a kid who keeps doing the same rule break over and over.

Of course I do remember that my DS was creative enough to be a general pain in the .... by finding new rules to break. Looking for the exception was very reinforcing for him.

More examples, please. ( I hope I haven't scared you off,sorry if so)

Smiles,
Grinity

It all sounds really appealing Dude, and is exactly the way I remember wishing I could have been raised, but I don't believe that children become more trustful from explainations, but from actions. So much depends on personality, but seriously - if your daughter ever 'talked back' to you and said 'That ISNT an answer!' or 'That isn't FAIR, you get to eat in the living room, WHY don't I?' wouldn't you start to feel that something wasn't working?

In the long run we have to figure out how to parent the kid we have, not the kid we think have. And just when we think we have them figured out - there they go changing again!

Smiles,
Grinity

I seem to have missed at least two posts in the middle ofthe thread yesterday, not surprising when I was (am) reading on my phone while moving house.

Dude we had a similar no "because I said so" principle. But I find I say something along those lines more often now and have regular conversations with my almost 10 year old about the fact that she needs to show more respect and trust that we don't ask/instruct things she might like for the fun of it but rather always have a reason and that she needs to show that respect/trust and do as she's asked and not start a debate at an inappropriate time. And the 5.5 yr old is about 5 mins behind the eldest there too. It's really quite frustrating having raised strong minded children who expect an explanation now that life has gotten to the point that it often isn't possible to give one (right then). I don't think there is a deliberate lack of respect, I am pretty sure they trust and respect me more than their teachers, but with me they expect answers, while at school they just do what they are told. They are having to now learn when to ask questions and when to just do as asked.

For us "because I said so" does not equal "there is no reason" it equals "you need to be able to realize that when the toddler is having a screaming fit in a busy carpark (and we are running late for X) is not the time to ask questions, you need to do what you are told simply because I said so - and you believe me to be a reasonable and thoughtful person who must have a good reason for asking (whatever)"

SMB - if he used the bike that makes more sense. But my thoughts are that our job is to teach not to punish. Punishing doesn't teach anything other than possibly to avoid getting caught. You want him to learn how to think about safety and to follow rules as appropriate. Generally when I find myself seeking to punish I realize I am acting to appease my own anger (which yes is usually driven from my fear/love for my child), punishment is NOT for the benefit of the child. Teaching the right thing to do is for the benefit of the child.

I would remeber to think about the child's actions in a positive light and that positive intent would be the first thing I would mention. He didn't do it to make you angry, he did it because he really likes his friend and wanted to play. So say that "you really like your friend and wanted to play/missed them/had something to tell them", then explain why it's not safe (cars, strangers, nobody home, etc) and that next time he has a good idea for a playdate he has to ask an adult to help set up a time. And warn him that most of the time those play-dates might not be straightaway, it might be later that day, the next day, or even further away.

Also keep in mind that if it's he first time he may not have realized it's wrong. Children can be very literal. I still remember my aunt retelling how my cousin took himself to a friends house and when she had finished telling him off he said "but I didn't cross the road mummy I walked on the footpath the whole way" (cul de sac). I don't know what words were used but in his mind he'd been told never to cross the road and he didn't so it was ok. Maybe you told your son never to walk off and in his mind that meant the bike was ok, do you see what I am getting at?

I am much less patient about repeat offences. Particularly the 100th time (or what feels like it). This usually when I start punishing and realizing it's about me and my frustration and anger not them....

Tangent - I think the reason I don't worry about our yard being unfenced is that a fence would make no difference to my 5 or 9 yr old, they can climb anything we would be likely to erect, and often do, if they decide to roam a fence wont stop them. The only thing it might do is make them pause before chasing a ball, but i have seen my 5 yr old cry over a lost ball that was still in our yard that she knew she would not catch in time, so did not even try to chase. She was quite delighted to have it retreived for her (again with the literalness - our talks about not chasing balls seemed to have been interpretted as meannng NOONE could chase a ball that went on the road). And of course my toddler can't be unsupervised regardless of fence.

Ok now I just feel worse about my ability to parent

I should clarify with the "because I said so". Most of the time we will explain why he cant do/have this etc. There are times when he will ask for something ie go to the boy nextdoors house & I will say no. He will ask why & sometimes Ill just say cause I dont want you to so he will keep pressing. Sometimes there just isnt a reason as such - I just dont want him to go nextdoor.

Grinity - your son sounds very much like my son, always finding new rules to break just because he can. Maybe youre right, now that he is older he is wanting to test the boundaries a bit more.

Mumofthree - I can see how being positive would work. I guess its easy to go straight for the punishment rather than explain why he shouldnt have done it. He did do it again yesterday. We also dont worry about the yard being unfenced because my son is a climber so having a fence wouldnt deter him from going out.

I guess the reason for my first post was the concern about the disliking himself or wanting to kill himself. The behaviour is still a problem & we would like ways to manage it better. I feel he is different but his IQ test at this stage doesnt indicate he is gifted as such. Perhaps it is our fault as he is quite mature but we forget he is only 5 after all.

Srry SMB...it is so easy to feel like a bad parent but as you can see we don't all agree with each other so there is no way you can do what all of us do. I don't know if your son is gifted or what that test spread means but I know that it is scary to hear a kid talk like that. Think it takes courage to talk about what really goes on at your house so please know I'm cheering for you. Your boy sounds Intense that's for sure.

It sounds familiar to me that you can't always put into words why he shouldn't go to the neighbors house 20 days outof 21. Sometines I have to say: Honey I wish I could explain but I just can't. Still I know I'm right and you need to Obey now.

Shrugs and more shrugs
Grinity

I guess I just cant help but feel there is something different about him & the way he thinks (which i suppose is supported with the IQ test & his GLC score). I just want to know how to help him (and us) with the behaviour etc.

Smb, I am sorry to have gotten side tracked from your most questions, I guess in part because I felt they were clearly dealt with by early responses. He needs to see an appropriate professional urgently.

If you want to pm me about where in Australia you are I may be able to suggest someone. I guess some obvious questions that would weigh on my mind in choosing who to take this to are

was psych #1 a gifted expert?
What made you choose them?
Have they provided any answers you were hoping to get?
Have the answered direct questions helpfully?
Do you trust them? This result?

This would influence whether you go to them for more help, or at the other extreme whether you get a fresh IQ assessment, which would have to be on the SB5 if you want it done soon. You also need to consider whether you need to be seeing someone 2e savvy.

I would probably start with a really good developmental paed, if they suspect something quirky going on they may refer you for assessments that will include some form of iq assessment. Or they might refer you to a psychiatrist.

Well, why can't she eat in the living room? Again, if the reason for the rule can't be articulated, maybe there's no good reason to have the rule.

Now, let's say hypothetically that we articulate our reasons... little children are accident prone, and messes sink deep into the carpet/upholstery, where they breed bacteria and attract bugs. Solid argument. Then DD starts arguing, beginning with some ludicrous suggestions. "I won't make a mess." "I'll clean it up." We poke holes in those arguments.

And then... "But we have carpet in the dining room, too. If I brought in my little table and chair, it wouldn't be any different from eating in the dining room."

Solid argument, and a compromise reached? Depends on the perspective and situation. This is all entirely hypothetical, since we have tile floors and one of those coffee tables that lift up, so DD is allowed to eat in the living room. But there have been a number of times in which DD has come up with an interesting solution that never occurred to DW or myself, in which everyone's goals are met. She's quite a negotiator... and negotiating is a lot more fun than yelling, I think.

Of course, this also means we have to have two things going for us:

- A lot of patience. For me, it helps to remember that a lot of the anger reaction for a parent in a parent/child conflict comes from a sense of losing control of the situation. So I remind myself that I'm the parent, I make the rules, I control the privileges, and she's not a threat to any of that.

- The ability of the child to take no for an answer. Because sometimes no matter how good the argument, she's still not going to be happy about it, because she has an emotional investment in getting what she wants. So once the discussion has played out and there's nothing useful in talking about it anymore, it's time to end the discussion. It's at those times that I end up reminding my daughter that I'm the parent, I make the rules, and I control the privileges, so just accept my decision. Or, she can go on protesting, and begin accepting the loss of privileges, too.


Absolutely, 100% agree. And this is why I never try to tell anyone what they should do... I simply say, "This is what works for us."

Indeed, but instead of saying "Because I said so," we say, "Not right now, just do it, we'll talk about it later," or some fractional portion thereof. "Not now." "Do it." "Later."

and for some kids, the time to end the discussion is right at the begining, because they do have low ability to take no for an answer. I don't think that most of our children need to be rewarded and encouraged to be 'negotiators' - they have enough natural talent for their age and emotional maturity. Depends on the kid, depends on the parent, depends on the circumstance. If I had a spouse that was likely to make random premature judgements, maybe I'd want a no 'because I said so' rule, but I am the kind of person who becomes less articulate when stressed, and there are many times that I have to say to both DH and DS, "I have a gut feeling about this, and I can't explain it - we just have to do it my way at this time."

Isn't that ironic, since I'm so articulate here? But really I'm a big picture thinking, and there are a lot of times when I have no idea in the world how I got to a particular conclusion - but experience has shown that I really need to trust my gut even when the emotional heat is turned up and I've gone detail-blind and dumb.

I'm sure you've seen your kid clam up when asked 'So how did you get your answer' at least once, so you know that we all have parts of our wisdom and knowledge that aren't word accesable.

Hope that helps,
Grinity

I've heard
Cross, Dr. Tracy L.
Spcialization(s): Gifted Education
Office: 3129
Phone: (757) 221 - 2362
Email: TLCross@wm.edu

give a lecture about suicide and gifted kids, and he was a very kind and thoughtful speaker.

I'd encourage anyone who was concerned about this issue with any of their family members to contact him, or at least try.

Peace,
Grinity

It would be rare that we have ever said "because I said so" other than as a joke, or with a joking tone. I was more talking about the general meaning of "just do it now because I said so". Actual words used : "now is not the time (to argue)" gets said a lot. Or "look around, is it a good time?". Sometimes "just do as you are told" in a fairly short tone of voice (usually to 10yr old while also wrestling with screaming toddler).