Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Gifted and ADD-PI?

Hi all, first post here. Hope this is the right place.

Here's my story. Just looking for some folks who can help me hash some of this out.

DS9, third grade, parochial school in an affluent town. We think he is bright. However, the school won't put him in the advanced reading and math groups. So we inquire as to why. They say that he doesn't complete the work he already has, he has issues with time management, teacher will call on him and he's not at the place in the book where he should be, etc.

So we go and get some IQ testing done as a start. Scores come back at 135. Oy. So he obviously has the ability to be in these groups. So we show the school the scores and they say that they agree he can handle the content, but until he shows he has the work habits, they can't move him.

The more I read, the more I am starting to think he has ADD-PI (primarily inattentive). Perhaps that "sluggish cognitive tempo" subset as well. My hunch is that his intelligence is masking the ADD, in terms of achievement, yet his ADD might be masking his intelligence as well. Making him present as an average student.

Our concern is that the school is trying to accommodate his weakness by placing him in a lower-level reading and math groups, yet by doing this they are ignoring his other need, to have material that is at his level. This placement could also be exacerbating the ADD-PI, which according to some expert is really boredom and lack of motivation (arousal).

Anyhow, so that is the deal. I guess my question is where do I go from here? The school is dead set that there will be no moving until he shows improvement on the time/speed issues. Homeschooling is not an option.

I would say the first step is to have him evaluated by an experienced professional. Then you can determine a course of action, like counseling or cognitive behavior therapy.

You've had IQ testing done, but have you had a private professional look at the results in-depth, and have you had any achievement testing done? The reason I ask that is that yes, what you describe sounds like it could be ADHD, but it also could be other things, and our experience has been that it's important to really understand the full picture before worrying that it's solely a lack of appropriate curriculum and challenge in school.

For example (and this is only one example, it's not necessarily anything at all related to your ds) but our ds also had all the very same challenges in 2nd grade. We already knew what his IQ was from previous testing for a gifted program at school, but that testing hadn't included any kind of analysis of his scores - all we knew was he had a high IQ, and we had a report with 4 different numbers on it, one of which was relatively low compared to the others but still very high. DS went through a full neuropsych review once he started having the inattention and organizational difficulties in school (we sent him through a private eval because his teacher was convinced he had ADHD and we were convinced there was nothing going on at all except a teacher who didn't like him and refused to believe he was as intellectually capable as he is). The IQ testing with the neuropsych had essentially the same result, but this time the neuropsych recognized that that one dip in scores meant something and did further testing which revealed a severe fine motor neurological disability - this impacted his writing which impacted his time/speed etc. DS did need and benefit from a more challenging curriculum, but he also needed help with accommodations for the fine motor challenges, and had we simply put him into a higher level group at school he still would have had the organizational and time/speed etc issues if we hadn't understood what was really behind it.

So - fwiw, I wouldnt' assume it's ADHD, it could be many different things. You need someone to look at the full spectrum of what's going on with your ds, then you'll have the knowledge you need to know how to proceed, combined with data to back up your decision.

You can ask the school to do the eval if you want to - make the request in writing. If you can afford it or if your insurance will cover it, you might find it more helpful to have a private eval simply because there will be no agenda re services and private evals tend to give a bit more information - depending on where you live. Some areas have thorough evals through the schools; our area doesn't.

Best wishes,

polarbear

How married are you to staying at this school? I have one gifted child with inattentive type ADD and one gifted child without. Even the one who does not have ADD didn't perform as well when she was placed well below her ability level. I'd wonder whether boredom might play into this as well and I might seriously consider interviewing other schools to see if you can find one that will consider placing him according to his ability and accommodating any weaknesses that may exist rather than focusing so much on current achievement.

Also, what did his IQ scores look like overall? Both of my kids have some serious variance within the subtests but my ADD kiddo had a major discrepency btwn speed and working memory vs. perceptual reasoning and verbal. I understand that is not uncommon among kids with ADD.

Hi Maya - Welcome!
I hope this the the right place!

Who did the IQ test? Was it an WISC IV? If so, what were the scores for processing speed and the other 3 main areas?

What does the person how did the testing think about how the school is acting? Would he or she be willing to call them and throw a 'professional opinion' into the mix?

You've clearly done your homework. Good Job. It is entirely possible that more challenging work will help your child stay 'activated' and on course. It's also possible that the school is right and that your child would be even farther behind. I would suggest 2 things -

1) go in and observe the classroom. Are the advanced classrooms truely advanced enough to provide that activation you are looking for?

2) try teaching your child something at home, and see first hand what the teachers are dealing with. If possible, figure out workable stratagies at home and then share them with the school.

If you child really does have ADHD-PI with slow cognitive tempo then it's quite possible that stimulent medication would work well to bring all the various parts of your child's brain into harmony with each other. It's also possible that the slowness has nothing to do with ADHD, but is a vision problem, a hearing problem, muscle weakness or boredom.

Good for you for taking the first steps and not just throwing your hands up. It will take a little while, but it's worth it!

Love and More Love,
Grinity

I know this isn't what your post was about, but I just wanted to thank you so much for mentioning the concept of sluggish cognitive tempo. My DS13 was diagnosed with ADD-I a couple of years ago, but SCT was never mentioned to me. But, since reading your comment, I've looked into it and it perfectly describes my DS! I can't tell you what a relief it is to finally have found something that describes him to a T! So, I just wanted to thank you for making me aware of this. It explains so much, and I can't wait to bring it up with his doctor.

I love this board! Welcome to the group!

Hi Grinity, thanks for the welcome!

Yes, it was the WISC-IV. His score breakdowns were as follows (roughly, I don't have the paper right here)

Verbal Comp 125 95th percentile
Perceptual Reasoning 130 98th percentile
Working Memory 100 50th percentile
Processing Speed 110 75th percentile
FSIQ 125 (95th percentile)
GAI 135 (99th percentile)

The psychologist said that GAI should be used as a measure of his ability since the spread of the scores between VC and PR and WM and PS was so large. And that his WM and PS, even though not as high, were still in the normal range.

I haven't observed the classroom, but I know the kids well and I do think it would be an advantage for him to be with them for these core content areas.

I have worked with him at home and he does extremely well. He's very easy to teach, he can focus, he's compliant, totally with it. It's not that I don't believe though that he could have ADD-PI. He's always been disorganized when it comes to remembering books, belongings and I do believe that he is spacing out a lot in the classroom.

The class is also large (25 kids) and has a reputation of being a rowdy class, whatever that means. She also seats the kids in pods instead of rows, which he has even told me makes it harder for him to follow directions. We've recently tested vision and hearing and general medical wellness.

Thanks polarbear. I think there is something going on, not sure about fine motor skills (we had an OT eval done a year or so ago for that). But I totally agree and I'm on the school's side on this one. If he can't handle the pace due to organizational challenges by whatever cause, then they need to be cognizant of that. I guess I just wish there was a third way, where he could get the challenge he needs along with accommodations.

You're welcome! SCT is very interesting. It seems to really capture my DS too. The current thought is it might end up being a subset of ADD-PI. I also wonder where SCT overlaps with introversion, some of the symptoms sound similar to me. Let me know what you find, I would love to discuss it more.

Thanks for the welcome!

I wrote a big post with the subscores...I hope it pops up. Is there is a delay on posts here?

I wrote a big post in response to Grinity with the scores on it but I think it's lost? Anyway, here they are again (roughly)

WISC IV (Dr. said to use GAI due to spread of scores, said WM and PSI were normal, but lower obviously)

Verbal Comp 125 (95%)
Perceptual Reasoning 130 (98%)
Working Memory 100 (50%)
Processing Speed 110 (75%)
FSIQ 125 (95%)
GAI 135 (99%)

I love your first sentence, thank you for that. I might be using that one!

I don't see the big deal with just letting him try it out either. My theory is, as long as he isn't disruptive to the other kids which is just not his thing, that I'd rather have him space out in a room where the content is a little higher than space out in a room where the content is too low.

But there absolutely is a way to give him the challenge even if he has organizational challenges - he's entitled to his FAPE (If you haven't heard of FAPE, check out www.wrightslaw.org). My ds is extremely organizationally challenged, but he is equally organizationally challenged across grade levels - what needs to be accommodated re organization at his age-grade-level also needs to be accommodated at his intellectual-grade-level and vice-versa - and that's all very *doable*. Once you know what your ds is challenged with that's causing the organizational issues and time/speed issues, then you'll know what accommodations he needs, and then he should be able to work at whatever grade level equivalent he needs to be at

I also agree yet don't entirely agree that moving him up into a more challenging set of coursework while you're trying to figure out what's at the root cause of it is the way to go - I think that partly depends on your ds' personality, and your gut feeling re what's really going on. If there's a challenge that's impacting his academics - for instance, my ds couldn't produce handwriting but we didn't realize that when he was struggling - moving him up in curriculum could have had a disastrous impact on his mental health - depending on the teacher he was with. OTOH if his mental health is being impacted severely at this point, any change is probably going to be a good change - but I didn't see that he is complaining of boredom to you in your original post.

FWIW it felt like we were "losing ground" over where our ds "should be" in early-mid elementary school as we went through the journey of trying to understand his challenges and how to accommodate for them - but ds made up most of that ground and then some when he entered middle school, where he could test into the advanced and honors classes etc. Plus we realized by mid-4th grade that "regular" school was never going to completely fulfill our ds' intellectual needs - no matter what level of coursework he was allowed to take. His intellectual cravings are mostly filled in after-schooling following his leads and passions.

It's possible that you can do some things to get through an eval as quickly as possible - and once you're through, again, you'll have data on your side that your school will have to consider, rather than just writing you off as an overly pushy parent. If you're considering a private eval, ask your ped to make the referral for you - that may get you an appointment quicker than going onto the regular waiting list.

Best wishes,

polarbear

I'm not sure if he is entitled to his FAPE since it's a parochial school? I doubt it. They do have kids with some special needs, but they seem to just try to wing it. We've been doing stuff on our own (the WISC and before that the OT eval which turned up nothing).

I think you make a great point re mental health. Right now, he is very happy in school, he has a lot of friends, he has excellent social skills, he enjoys going there every day, we are very lucky in this way. OTOH, I don't think the work is that advanced in these groups that he couldn't handle it either, or at least handle it as well as he is handling regular work.

My strong hunch is that it's ADD-PI/SCT. I don't want to jump to meds right now (no judgment on meds there, just where we are right now). So there are so many competing factors going on making things seem very complicated right now. And again, the fact it is a private school is making it harder!