Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Ripping my heart out...

So, last night I heard the dreaded words for the first time from DS7 "I hate school." Poor guy has had such a hard time. He's been on Trileptal & Concerta for about a month now, and while it's drastically reduced the 'fits' that he has in school, I swear it's made him depressed. He complains that he doesn't have any friends (and sadly he's right) and that the kids are mean to him. I just want to cry when I hear this stuff! He just seems to feel dejected and I have no idea what to do to make it better!

I tried to talk to him this weekend about how you make/keep friends. I explained that you have to talk about something your friend likes and not just what you like. DS's response? "That's stupid. That's just stupid. It doesn't make any sense." *sigh* None of the kids in class are apparently interested in the things he is, none of them read the same books or play the same video games.

I want so desperately to be able to FIX things for him. His teacher is nice enough, but his school doesn't do acceleration or differentiation. My step-mother's been driving me crazy trying to convince me to enroll him in the montessori charter school that's part of her school district (she's a principal, and thus, my kids can go to any school in her district.) The problem? This school is a good 40mins away from our house, in the opposite direction from my work. After school care (extended day) goes to 6pm. There aren't enough hours there for me to be able to put in 8 hours at the office! I need a clone of myself. Or my husband to have a more convenient job. Or to hit the lottery so I can enroll him in a private school.


*deep breath*

Ok. I'm done now. I just want to thank you all and send you hugs and kisses through the internet for being the only people I've come across that will understand what I'm going through.

Oh, big hugs!!

We have different school struggles with DD9, but the end result is the same... an unhappy child. I can relate to your feelings of helplessness and wanting the fix all of the problems. It is harder to sit on the sidelines!!

I don't have any great advice to offer, just my empathy and support. ((hugs))

Sorry, epoh, that must be really hard.

TBH, I don't think talking about things your friends like in preference to things you like is a reasonable expectation at 7. If your DS has been having behaviour difficulties that may have put people off until about a month ago, it may be that he just needs to hang in there... What do kids in his class talk about or do together apart from books and video games? I don't think my DS8 talks about those at school (and he'd largely be talking about different ones from his classmates, like your DS) but he has common ground in building things and making models (lego, k'nex etc.), which seems to be what he does with his friends at break. [ETA he does sometimes come home wanting to find out about some craze that he doesn't actually want to join in with but does want to know about a bit, e.g., he read Wikipedia articles on Pokemon the other day - maybe that's so that he can talk about it with his friends, so maybe I underestimate him, but really I doubt he goes much further than to choose topics from among the things he's interested in. Come to that, I don't think I often talk to my friends about things I'm not interested in :-)]

Given that his teacher is a good enough sort, have you tried to talk to him/her about your DS's saying he hates school? Regardless of whether they're competently meeting his educational needs (and urk to a school that "doesn't do" differentiation!), any teacher worth his/her salt will surely prick up ears and get thinking at that. Maybe s/he could suggest, and have a word with, one or two classmates who might be willing to make an effort to be friendly?

I have to agree with your son that friends are, ideally, people with whom you can be yourself. The point of friends is that you actually like each other.

Any way you could arrange for a sitter to pick up and/or drop off your son?

Epoh, this stuff is so hard. I'm sorry.


Couple of thoughts:
1. talk to your prescribing doc about this. Mood changes have to be monitored closely for children taking pharmaceuticals.

2. If he's had tantrums at school, other kids are probably genuinely afraid of him. It will take quite a while of being tantrum-free before they start to relax around him. We found that an open discussion of DS's disability with the class, led by the teacher, helped the other kids get it, that he wasn't a mean kid, and that it wasn't his fault that he freaks out sometimes.


This is something we have actively worked on with our DS. Not that you can make your kid like other kids, but you can give him access to information that helps him fit. We do choose to selectively expose our DS to sports, for example, that we do not particularly care for ourselves, because it's a huge part of social life where we are and a boy has to be able to have those conversations. We make sure he reads some of what his peers are reading, even if he's also reading other things.

We don't do all of what other people do (we have no plans to get TV, for instance) but we do the parts that seem like they help some.


Can you tell whether he's hating it socially, or academically, or both? Academic differentiation may help socially, or it may not; we found that we had to work on social give-and-take as a skill in itself, as well as finding the appropriate academic placement. And if the differentiation has him alone in the back of the room with a workbook, it can make things worse socially. Acceleration into another class is hard to schedule, but better for a kid who needs to learn how to connect with others socially.

I think it's fine to reopen the conversation with the school, let them know he's suffering, and ask for their help in making things better for him.


I'd say, look at all of your options closely and see what might fit your child better. Sometimes the relatively unstructured Montessori approach makes anxious kids more anxious; sometimes it's a godsend.

DeeDee

Thank you guys!

@ColinsMum - I probably didn't explain well (and probably need to talk more with him) about the 'talking about what they like.' DS either wants to talk for an extended amount of time about something he's excited/interested about/in or not at all. He wants to do what he wants to do 100% of the time. I'm trying to get him to understand that you have to find common ground with other people, and sometimes listen to them, even if they are talking about something he isn't particularly interested in. I would love for him to find another little boy like him, but we haven't come across anyone quite so obsessed with Legos/Star Wars/Diary of a Wimpy kid!

@aculady & DeeDee - I am seriously starting to look into the Montessori. My stepmom said they are doing open house right now, so I am going to try to go to that. I am not sure how we'd manage transportation, but I realize I can't just poo poo the whole thing because I don't have that all worked out up front.

@DeeDee - We have an appt with the counselor on the 14th, but I might call and try and talk with the psychiatrist before then about how sad he's been. We've also done soccer and basketball, which he enjoys, but he's still noticeably Different from the other kids, and I don't know if that will go away with time and meds or if that's just how it will be. The hubby and I have discussed other extracurricular activities to look at (karate and piano lessons) but haven't decided anything yet.

I'm so sorry your ds is struggling - we've been through similar times when our ds was younger and it's so hard to know our children are sad and feel like there is very little we can do about it. Sending you a huge hug! FWIW, when our ds was 7 he was diagnosed with anxiety and was found to be on the verge of clinical depression due to his struggles at school. He was extremely isolated and having huge panic attacks. We were so worried about him - yet one simple change, moving him to a different classroom, made all the difference in the world - he was like a different child overnight and his depression disappeared. In his case it was a combo of getting away from a teacher that he really *really* didn't have a rapport with plus finding a teacher who had more of his intellectual learning style incorporated in the classroom - not necessarily giving him more challenge - instead it was more like giving him a classroom where he had the opportunity to find his own intellectual challenges, the freedom to think.

I second the recommendation to let your ds' dr know what's up with the sad feelings - it could be related to his meds. And I'll also second looking into ways you could make a different school work. If the Montessori looks like it's truly a good fit, there may be ways to make it work. Each of my 3 children goes to a different charter school - no bus service for any of them! But each school has before and after care and help finding carpools available because most parents are stuck in the same place - needing help with getting their kids to/from school.


Your ds will find these kids - really and truly. I can't tell you how many young boys I know that are totally obsessed with Legos/Star Wars and Diary of a Wimpy Kid - it's not something that's limited to gifted kids who aren't into sports! Please know I'm not downplaying your concerns - finding friends was really really tough for our ds for many years - tough enough not having intellectual peers but also tough because he has developmental coordination disorder which makes him clumsy plus he has literally zero interest in sports. He clung onto the same two friends from kindergarten through fifth grade, was sad as he watched their social circles branch out while his remained very tightly closed. We chose to move him to a new school this year (6th grade) for several reasons, and I was really really worried about the friendship piece of things - we were taking him away from the only two friends he'd ever bonded with and throwing him into a new mix of kids who'd been to school together since kindergarten. He was worried about it too - he had no reason based on past history to expect he'd fit in. But guess what? He found a friend right away, and he's gotten along really well. The change of scene was a really really REALLY good thing for him - it gave him a chance to start over socially.

polarbear

Maybe stepmom will do some of the driving?
Or maybe there is another different school that will be a better fit?
Extracurricular activities sound like a great way to make new friends - Karate yes, but piano isn't social, around here anyway, unless the piano teacher is willing to be a mentor/life coach as well as a teacher.

my .02
Grinity

If you haven't already tried 'Friends forever' by Frankel and 'Transforming the Difficult Child Workbook' by Bravo - give them a try. Friends forever will help you make rules so your child has a chance to enjoy friendships. Transforming helps you figure out how to even have workable rules.

In the meantime, look for tiny moments when he listens to you and notice it and show him how good he is at it.

Of course if he hasn't always been like this then the stress of his particular classroom may be the only thing that needs to change...but if he's always been a 'I want what I want when i want it kind of kid' then there are things you can do to help that along.

Smiles,
Grinity

My DD6 (almost 7)is the totally empathetic, sympathetic child who always goes up to the kids who are sad or isolated and tries to make them feel like a part of things - or at least that they have a friend. I decided to ask her for some input. For what it's worth here is what she said:

Q "What would you suggest for a boy who is interested in different things than the other kids in his class and feels like he has no friends."

A "Tell him just to smile and be nice. He doesn't need to force it."

Q "If you had a kid in your class who used to throw a lot of tantrums but recently stopped how long would it take you to be comfortable around him?"

A "Oh that would take a loooong time..."

Not sure if this helps but thought I would let you know. Have you talked to the school psychologist or social worker? They may be able to facilitate some small group work with handpicked kids similar to my DD. I bet if your ds felt he had even one friend at school he would be a whole lot happier. They could probably also work with him on the social skills needed to have more give and take conversations. Those one-sided lectures can be pretty taxing even for the most patient listener.

FWIW I second (or third?) the suggestions to make sure his doctor knows about his sadness, look at extracurricular activities where he may make friends with at least one thing in common and see if you can find a solution to the transportation issue for the Montessori school. My dd ended up clinically anxious last year but is loving school this year. A change of environment (with a supportive administration and really good teacher) can make a huge difference.

Hang in there and give him a hug for me.

I know that you were talking about getting on the waiting list for the child study center, but you really might want to make sure that the psychiatrist is aware of these things. Has the psychiatrist definitively ruled out Asperger's? The whole picture really sounds familiar to me.

To me too. The intensity of attachment to a few self-chosen topics especially.

Epoh, these problems really can be improved immensely with concentrated effort on your and his part. Nothing is set in stone at this age.

DeeDee

@Pemberley - Thanks a bunch. I can understand how it might take the kids a while to feel comfortable with him. Especially since he does still have fits, just not as often.

@aculady - I will bring them up with the psychiatrist. They did a rather long eval when we first went, and Asperger's wasn't mentioned. I don't know a whole lot about Asperger's but my understanding is that the kids tend to lack the ability to see/notice social queues, right? DS totally see them, he just doesn't feel like he should have to do anything he doesn't want to, if that makes sense.

I kind of feel like he's in a bit of a spiral where anxiety makes his hyper-focusing worse, and that makes social interactions worse, which increases his anxiety....

[quote=epoh]. I would love for him to find another little boy like him, but we haven't come across anyone quite so obsessed with Legos/Star Wars/Diary of a Wimpy kid!

Aww, epoh I feel your pain. My DS8 is not ADHD, but has SPD (sensory seeker) and I am constantly worried about how that effects his ability to make friends (he touches people too much, invades personal space). But I have to say that he has gotten so much better at controlling his urges lately and he seems to be doing much better socially at school. Seven was hard, 8 seems to be going much better.

And I just want to suggest that it is not your DS but the other kids at the school who are unusual in their interests. Almost all the boys this age that I know have some level of obsession with Legos/Star Wars/Wimpy Kid! Yes, they talk sports too, but there have to be some kids that share his interests around! I would talk with the teacher and share your concerns about his social interactions. She may have some more insight into the issues and also may be able to silently intervene (by pairing him for a project with someone she knows might be a good friendship fit, or rearranging the seating, for example).

Also, maybe you can work with him to share his interests as well as listen to others. So, for example, my ds loves chess and he will sometimes teach friends how to play if they are interested. But honestly, social relationships for boys are hard at this age, IMO. None of them, not just your ds, have learned really how to be a friend, they are all figuring it out.

Diagnosing Asperger's can be challenging in highly gifted kids, because they are often able to use their intellect to help compensate for deficits, and so may have better speech pragmatics, wider interests and better comprehension than more intellectually average Asperger's individuals. Have you picked up a copy of Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults yet?

I have not, but thik that will be next after this friendship book!

I just wanted to thank you all again. I am feeling much better today! I emailed back and forth with his teacher yesterday and the end result is there is still a certain amount of Official 2nd Grade Work he has to do, but she is going to work on replacing the rest with more challenging stuff. And I am busy reading Friends Forever: How Parents Can Help Their Kids Make and Keep Good Friends. I am also going to see about taking a tour of the Montessori charter school.

So glad to hear that you are making progress!

Yippee!

So, apparently, Ethan's behavior in class is bad in a new and different way! I got an email from his teacher today

"(DS) had a rough day, very disrespectful attitude. He received two numbers and I wrote a note to you. He is acting out more, not the usual behaviors that we have been dealing with, but behaviors like throwing things, slamming his desk, etc. I'm going to go through the regular discipline plan with (DS) and he will receive his numbers, detentions, etc. The other things I have been trying aren't seeming to work. You may want to review the discipline plan with your husband and (DS). I'm hoping the Christmas break will help with his attitude."

Gaaah! I have to give her credit for trying to work with him and not just immediately tossing him onto the disciplinary plan, but DANG IT!

Epoh, you may want to read up on positive behavior plans. I.e., rather than punishing negative behavior exclusively, they should be noting and rewarding positive behavior. Ideally for the whole class, not just for your DS, but if he needs extra feedback, he should get it, and not only in a negative way.

Our best teacher ever gave "thank you tickets" to any kid in the class who she caught doing the right thing... The ticket was entered into a prize drawing, but the main thing was that she was calling attention to the correct behavior all the time by doling out the tickets. It was extremely motivating.

We have found that punitive measures have made things worse for our DS-- the more anxious he got about the possibility of being punished, the worse his behavior got (because he couldn't control the anxiety). It was a negative spiral. He has done best with gentle correction and positive reinforcement.

DeeDee

Epoh,

I admit that I didn't read through everyones responses so if someone has already brought this up, excuse the echo.

DS6 started K last year and it was a disaster. Serious overloads! He got sent home at least twice a week and was in the principals office every single day. He had fits of rage and god help whoever was standing in his way when he went off! He threw furniture, ripped everything off the walls, hit people, would just lose it. Then came a magic pony.....

He started Hippa (equestrian) therapy at the recommendation of a friend. Two days a week, every week for 4 months, then down to once a week. Within two weeks of starting, Ds was a different kid. He stopped exploding at school. Just stopped. In the last 9 weeks, he went to the principals office twice. No more picking him up because of behavior. It was like magic.

Fast forward to today. He is in first grade, get good citizen awards every week, is the top of his class and hasn't graced the principals office, not once. He has friends now.

Even as he was going to therapy and I had the process explained to me, I still don't really understand. But what I do know is that putting my son on a horse quieted the chaos inside him. It balances their nervous system somehow. I would see if it is available anywhere near you and give it a try. For us, it truly was the silver bullet, that magic pony....

Thanks for the replies.

DeeDee -i know they do some positive reinforcement - he's come home with notes saying he had a great day, or that a paper he wrote was good, or his artwork got hung up. I am not sure if the small stuff is being handled that way on a regular basis.

Shari- that is something to look into. There are like 3 horse ranches right near us that do riding lessons. No idea how much they cost.

One more thing-- if it's a frustration tolerance issue, they should be positively reinforcing every single time he manages frustration without flipping out. That's how you'll see a change the fastest.

Of course, it would also be helpful to know the antecedents of the blowups. What situations cause them? Are there ways of acclimating him to those situations (we are big on role play) to make them less of a big deal for him?

DS hated writing in his planner; it made him anxious. We practiced it at home a few times; he just had to copy whatever I wrote into the planner. The teachers are also aware and positively reinforcing when he does it correctly. We saw much better success after that: he knows what he's to do, he's practiced, and he knows there's a payoff for success. You can teach almost any behavior this way...

DeeDee

The things that set him off are varied... but they can basically be boiled down to anything he perceives to be "unfair," and when he gets overwhelmed. The "unfair" stuff is the normal stuff you expect to see with a bunch of 7/8yr olds - so and so wasn't taking turns, tommy cut in line, suzy made a face at me, etc. These sorts of triggers have been getting a little better, but I think they are still effecting his frustration level. The overwhelmed part is I think what's triggering him more lately. The mere idea of a test can set him to crying. A test on material he's known how to do for over a year, mind you. But in his head he thinks these over-the-top things might happen that will cause him to fail. We've been discussing this sort of thing at home a lot, but I don't know if it's helping much.

I plan on talking to his psychiatrist again soon. He's got him on two meds - one for ADHD (concerta) and one for what the dr called "mood disorder" which I believe was him just not wanting to tell us he thinks bi-polar (trileptal). Personally, I more and more disbelieve a bi-polar diagnosis. I think ADHD + anxiety is the primary problem.

Epoh, not to repeat myself, but I still think that you should see a specialist who can rule in or out autism spectrum disorders. That fair/unfair thinking, the anxiety, and the catastrophizing (unrealistic thinking about possible negative outcomes of a test, for instance) are pretty classic ASD issues. FWIW that collection of symptoms doesn't sound like bipolar to me either, though of course from this distance I can't tell you much.

You can do a lot to work through anxiety using CBT methods. Martin Seligman's "learned optimism" strategies do really help with thinking your way out of anxiety, and can be taught to a child your DS's age. A CBT practitioner will have more strategies too.

You can work through social situations the same way, focusing on likely outcomes and possible choices your DS could make. ("if tommy cuts in line, what's likely to happen if I make X choice to respond to that? what happens if I make Y choice? Which choice is better?") Sometimes it's hard to learn to accept the unfair and not make a big deal about it; but it can be learned.

HTH
DeeDee

Thanks DeeDee. Parts of his behavior do come off like ASD, but so much of his personality seems to completely rule it out as well. He does not have any problem decoding facial expressions, sensing emotion in people's tone of voice. He doesn't have any problem talking about how he's feeling and expressing himself after the fact. I guess I need to read more on it.