Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Woodcock-Johnson was very high, but K unimpressed

Hi- I'm new here and at my wit's end with my daughter's K program. Because she missed the birthday cut-off by 3 weeks, she was evaluated in March for early admissions. It is now apparent (I think) that they assessed her using the Woodcock-Johnson tests. She kind of blew it away with most of her scores nestled tightly under the far right of the bell curve and one of them falling well off the page. Her actual skills prior to K were in line with that test. So the problem? Even after two meetings and multiple emails to the teacher, I am being told that she's fine, she's OK, she's happy, why fuss? At what 'standard score' should I bring the assessment back into the conversation? I don't think she is at a level of giftedness that is clearly found here in this forum, but she's clearly ahead of the game. I'm feeling alone with what to do and would appreciate anyone's advice on what to make of these scores and how to proceed. Thanks!!

Welcome Tonka. I'm going to respond with a bunch of questions...What are the issues you are having with the program? Is your DD complaining to you? Do you feel that she is not learning anything new? I think every kid deserves to be learning new material some of the time. Does your school have GT programming? What sort of program is it? Is it worth fighting to get into (sometimes it's just a once a week pullout, which isn't all that helpful if a kid needs something more all day/every day). What would you like your DD to be doing right now? Subject acceleration? Can you find out if there are other kids at your DD's level that can be grouped together?

Hi Tanka,

Welcome! Others who are more experienced with test scores will likely chime in shortly.

We were in a similar boat a couple of years ago with DD (and again now with DS).

1. From your point of view, do you think your DD is happy in her current class?

2. What are your expectations for the school and the teacher? What do you want them to do? We have found that it is important to be very specific when asking for accommodation. One step at a time.

3. As far as tests and scores.... Do you know which tests your school will accept and at what score do they consider as "gifted?"

4. Get to know your state and district's gifted education policy.

Good luck....
Mag

Welcome Tanka,

I'll second St. Pauli Girl's questions - as well as suggesting that it would be a really good idea to familiarize yourself with your school district's gifted ed policy - chances are you can find it online.

Also, do you have a copy of the WJ test scores or were you just shown a copy? It will be helpful to know if she had achievement or ability tests or both, and what the actual scores are if you want help from us here re what to make of the scores.

Best wishes,

polarbear

Thanks for all the good questions! I have another conference coming up and this will really help me focus on specific concerns. So to elaborate on a variety of questions...
I have a copy of the assessment scores. It does not say 'Woodcock Johnson,' but several members of my family who administer that test seem to think that's what it is. Online data also points that way. But, if after I describe some of it, anyone thinks it was NOT W-J, please let me know. I need to have accurate data. Most of her scores were in the 130s. The bell curve puts them at 98+%. My curve stopped at 145. Her 'Word Attack' score (phonics) was 155. It caught my attention, but even when I pointed this out to the K teacher, she seemed to gloss over it.
The only thing I know about our county's GT program is that it starts at 3rd grade. I do have the opportunity to talk to a county representative next week and I hope to get more information then.
I ask my daughter almost everyday if she is reading or doing math at school. Often, it's flat-out no. Sometimes, there is limited reading. No one is interested when I say she can add, subtract and sometimes multiply with confidence. She completed two years at a Montessori school and they just let her move on and on!
No, I don't think she's making progress. The teacher is focusing on her handwriting. Her handwriting is developmentally appropriate.
I specifically want her to make measurable academic progress. Just like the other kids. But I'm finding that some skills are eroding. Her math skills are just falling out of her ears.
The good (great) news is that she LOVES school and her teacher. Loves it with rainbows and red hearts. I want to be careful and diligent in how I proceed.
Would appreciate any insight. It's frustrating! Thanks so much!!

Hi Tonka,

From what you say, with the Word Attack, it sounds like the WJ achievement test (not the aptitude). My DS took this as a kindergartner, and also scored very highly. That particular test isn't especially telling for achievement, IIRC, because it only asks a few questions per category. Someone with more knowledge of this test will hopefully pipe in. I think when you are very young and a very strong reader, you can get some pretty high scores on that test. Did the school psychologist administer the test? If so, can you have a meeting that includes that person? They should be more familiar with (and thus more impressed) with the results.

I'll preface all of this advice with a caveat that it's just meant as food for thought. Some of this worked for us, and may not work for you or others.

I remember my son's K teacher wasn't very impressed with any tests - some teachers just aren't, they want to get to know the kids themselves. When kids score very high compared to other kids, there is a likelihood that teachers have little to no experience with that type of kid, and so they will not know that they might need to take a different approach.

Our school district also didn't offer GT services until 3rd, but we met with the GT coordinator with IQ test scores and asked for advice. It was helpful for us to get outside testing and a full report. This convinced the GT coordinator that they needed to do differentiation for our DS even before he hit third. Try to get the GT staff person on your side and to help you deal with the school, if you can. The GT person can recommend in-class differentiation, or help you with ideas to send alternate materials in, if you need to. I would emphasize that you want to help as much as you can, and if she has any ideas of what to do so that your DD can get some challenges too.

I would ask if there are other kids with similar scores to your DD. Does your school do MAP testing, by any chance? That is open-ended achievement testing that is very helpful to see what your DD already knows. Some schools have this type of test, but don't offer it for the youngest grades. If your school has it, ask if your DD can take it early so the school will know what you're dealing with.

Ask about pre-testing. If your DD can test out of the units that are being taught and if so, can she have alternate materials. I would start with math, because that's easy for the school to measure. If it turns out she is working at the level of a higher grade, ask if she can go to that class. Reading can be differentiated pretty easily (if the school is willing to try). I don't think the classroom teacher will be as impressed with tests such as the WJ (or IQ tests) that are not the testing she is used to, but when she sees what your DD can do on her own tests - maybe even end of year tests -- then she may see the light.

The handwriting was an issue for our DS. He did not want to learn how to write, and so we looked at kindergarten as a "learn to write" year. That was pretty much our biggest goal. That and learning to "do school" for a full day, but it sounds like your DD already had that school experience. When the GT teacher tested our DS on the MAP and started tutoring him in math, it was an extra bonus. We ended up advocating for DS to skip 1st grade, which turned out to be a great decision, but the handwriting came up again when the math still wasn't enough. (They said he couldn't go to 3rd grade math because he wouldn't be able to keep up with the writing.) We transferred mid-year to a school for HG kids that accepts that writing for our DS will be age-appropriate, and they don't prevent him from learning higher level materials just because he has poor handwriting.

It is great that your DD loves her teacher. Can you visit the classroom sometime and see what's going on? There's a possibility your DD is learning things that you're just not aware of - a lot goes on in the classroom that doesn't make it home. Just a thought.

Sorry, bunch of rambling....

This is great help! This is tremendous help! I am meeting with the teacher again, visiting the classroom, and gathering county information- all in the next couple of weeks. It's good to be able to reference the test with some accuracy. Yes, the school's counselor administered the test. The principal called me when the results came in to suggest that my daughter might be able to move into a first grade reading class- or other accommodations- depending on resources. The K teacher is strong and promised that she would differentiate, but I just haven't seen it (except in the homework assignments- which I suppose is simply to impress me, not help my kid). I want to follow whatever appropriate channels there are, so I haven't met with the principal yet. I think it's a looming possibility. She's reading a lot at home, but it's hard to convince her to do 'bonus Mom math worksheets' after a full day of school. I think I need to jump on the math. Her standard score was 136.
Anyway- thanks again! So glad I found this site!!

Hi Tanka,

Our kids also had a hard time doing math sheets after a full day of school at this age. Do you think your teacher will be open to bringing some level-appropriate math sheets to school so your daughter can work on it independently during math time at school?

For us, we send in only review materials.... It is not moving forward, but we thought reviewing and retaining is better than forgetting.

Another approach (we are still waiting for an answer from school) is considering an online math courses if your child's school has computers that she can use and you think she can be an independent learner.

Just a couple of thoughts....
Mag

Two great ideas, Mag. Thanks! I'll include them at the conference!

Not helpful but...

Of course if your child's birthday was 3 MONTHS vs weeks before the cut-off and you opted to wait - nobody would evaluate your decision.

Feel the snark.