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I don't want to offend anyone's faith here but this is a real question.

We discuss how our kids like to research stuff right? Well, since DH and I were both raised Catholic and DD turned 7, a mother mentioned "was DD taking first communion this year?" And we decided to go for it, as a cultural thing.

Since we just started 2 weeks ago and she missed last year, we are doing remedial stuff and she has to do a quiz for every section. A bit hard for me since I didn't go to Catholic school and had 3 Cathecism classes before my first communion, but there is all this Creation stuff and Father and Son stuff. But what really is hard is the contradiction. Like there is a prayer that says that you will not call anyone father on earth, it is reserved for God, yet (aside from fathers) we always called the priest father etc. And if you really start to research, which DD is a little young for, but how the church developed, Paul being a very good marketer, the real research, you see it was developed more to control populations. And how do you explain these things while still letting her pass the tests to get her first communion?

Part of me wants her to understand religion like any subject and you have to first understand why people believe. And please, I do have faith, just not the religious doctrine associated with any one faith. But like any holiday festival, it is a nice tradition.

Contradiction of desires and thoughts here for DD. Appreciate anyone who has experience or input.

Ren

interesting...

I too do not want to offend, but I tend to say things that sometimes do so, anyway...

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school until 6th grade. DH is from rural Vermont, never went to any church or practiced any organized religion. We are raising our children without religion, but DD4.5 does go to a Christian school where they start the day with a Bible story...one of the happy Jesus types though, not the gloom and doom kind...

Last year, DD was in a similar spot, with friends making the FC. She had also just finished reading all the Percy Jackson books. One day, I go to volunteer in the classroom and one of the kids asks me "Why does Butter hate God?" Of course, I am shocked by this. "The H word" is something I discourage the use of and I was sure this kid must be mistaken. When Butter's group (most advanced reading group, 4 of 5 tested gate last year) comes to me, I ask her about it and this starts a religious discusson in which SDMom's son, Mr B, says he had FC when he was 2 (I think he is mistaken until I find out later they go to a Christian church where all comers can take communion-had to explain what FIRST Communion was)...I would say ALL religions are represented well in our school, but the use of hate bothered me...
When I ask the child about it later, at home, she tells me she actually said "God is boring and we should go back to worshipping the Greek gods. They were far more interesting." After I recover from laughing, I explain to her how some of her friends take their faith/religious beliefs very seriously. I did at that age. I think her friends were disturbed that they might not see her in heaven, that she has to be careful about what she says sometimes (is it any wonder the kids tells me she feels different? sigh)

Is your daughter asking questions or is this mostly your dilemma? If she is not questioning, but accepting, then I would just go with it. I personally see the Bible itself similar to a book of fairy tales (again-no offense meant!) that are meant to guide people in decision making...stories of "look what happens when you are cruel to others" and things like that.
If she is questioning, I would probably take that to your catechism teacher...I think it has a lot to do with your DD's personality too...is she a "head down" kind or the kind that stands out? Is she likely to pose a question in class that leads to a full on theological debate?

I think religion is a difficult subject for any gifted child in any religion. We, too, are Catholic and although we attend regularly, both DH and I have our own issues with many parts of the religion. That being said, I find great comfort in the rituals associated with my religion and this is what I focus on when conversing with DD9. I don't have to agree or believe with everything that is spouted... I focus on the parts I believe with all my heart and skim over all the rest. A lot like I did in school!

DD has had some pretty great questions over the years and now has our priest's email address so she can direct the big ones to him (this was his idea after being accosted by her a few times). She just had her bible presentation three weeks ago and is trying hard to read it... but the small type makes it difficult for a dyslexic child to read. I love that she is interested, but I too fear some of the conversations we are going to have in the coming years. Can't wait til she starts learning about evolution....

DD went to St. Ignatius for K, because it used to be a great Jesuit school and would accelerate but now the principal is Irish Catholic and is turning it into a 1960s Irish Catholic school, so we left.

She hated going to "God's House" when she was at St. Ignatius. She doesn't seem to mind this church, though we have only gone twice so far and she has 2 school friends in the Sunday school and since she is in the grade 1 class, she gets cupcakes each week.

As I try and explain the concepts and how religion came to be, though I want her to learn what they want her to know, DH thinks she won't pass the quiz with my explanations. I teach her that 100s of years ago people were not educated and these guys wanted to build a church based on good teachings so they had to create a way to teach these people and answer their questions and they just got stuck in the church, despite the fact we know so much more.

She just likes the idea of FC so she can eat in church...

Ren

can I just take this moment to say that I used to try to hold the host in my mouth until church was over...I always thought it might explode or something if I crossed the threshold with it, lol!

And we decided to go for it, as a cultural thing.
What does this mean, actually?

I have a friend who's culturally Jewish, but not a religious one. I don't know if you can actually participate in church and call it not religious. Some people go just for the holidays, but it's a religious act. I guess you could be religious without buying the dogma. (btw "Dogma" is a very funny, sac religious movie that deals with that issue. It's got Chris Rock and stars Selma Hayek as a pg-rated stripper and Matt Damen.) uh, I guess you don't want your seven year old watching it if you don't want her even painting her fingernails yet. It's even got a poop-daemon called an "excremental". The pope is played by George Carlin. I hope I'm not out of line. I just wanted to share because I thought it was the funniest movie ever written.

Ok, a more thoughtful answer. Where you live is the melting pot with a lot of diversity. My Jewish friend dates a Buddhist guy whose best friend is a Catholic. Her BFF is a Hindu from India. Me, I'm an atheist whose family says to call it non-denominational and say "I'm still seeking", although my open minded dad would "ok" me saying "secular humanist". I say I'm an apethist, it doesn't have any meaning in my life. My FB BFF has her religious views on Facebook written LOVE, her political views written as LOVE. Bueno.
I'm saying if you want to culturally give her Catholic roots without having her buy the dogma then maybe you could visit a few other religious clergy and ask for the cliffs notes to their religions. There's several buddhist monasteries in Woodstock. I've heard that their service involves sitting and meditating quietly. I'm sure you can find a synagogue. The you can discuss what religion means to people abstractly without throwing her off on her catechism.

La Tex called it pretty well. It is part of where we come from, like being Polish or Italian.

Oh, I can related to this issue well. Both my husband and I were raised Catholic. From generations of Catholics before us! My parents were and continue to be cultural Catholics. Actually DH's parents are that way too. They participate in their church community but are not literal practicing Catholics.

Anyway, in looking for somewhere to marry we found a UU church (Unitarian Universalist). We were really just looking for a building. My DH is divorced and I was quite opposed to buying off the Catholic church for an annulment (his first marriage was a young, short, no kids marriage). But we found a community where we be involved without any particular dogma, pulling our "cultural Catholcism" along with us.

What has been a particularly good fit is the Sunday school program. It is designed to get kids thinking and asking questions, and works great for GT kids (very open ended). This has been an excellent solution for us. The kids get exposed to all major religions respectfully.

I don't have kids, but I am excited to see this discussion. Until I read _Living with Intensity_, it was like religion and giftedness were mutually exclusive. I grew up in the Bible Belt, and wanted to shake things up by inviting a Catholic Priest and a Rabbi to speak at my public school's Religious Emphasis Week. Traditionally, we had a different fundamentalist preacher speak every day of this week. Likewise, sunday schools as a general rule aim kind of low when planning their lessons.

I teach 6th grade world history in a public school. Major world religions are part of our content standards. I ask students to compile similar information (sacred texts, gods and goddesses, worship, impact on daily lives, afterlife) for each of the religions.

Our history textbook is not terribly helpful for this kind of information. For one thing, it won't touch controversy with a five-foot pole. Every once in awhile, I have to fill in a blank for students out of my own exposure to other religions. Still looking for a good age-appropriate source on the Muslim afterlife, for example.

Still, Cobblestone publishing sells back issues of Calliope and other magazines devoted to major world religions, and occasionally puts some of those articles on the web. Here are some about Buddhism for example:

http://www.cricketmag.com/1871

I have not read all the replies yet, but I wonder what exactly you read in your research that led you to believe what you said here.

I suggest you continue to research and be sure to read writings by scholars like Scott Hahn and Stephen Ray.

Feel free to pm me for specific titles and other resources. The Catholic church is rich in history and tradtiton and there's ton of misleading information out there.

Thank you Terrilth for the links but I meant scholarly research.

I give this thread a 50% probability of being smooshed.

Sorry to go off-topic a bit, but DD has been asking recently for a good book that reviews all the world religions--any suggestions? DH and I are atheists but have very religious relatives, so we spend a lot of time talking about respecting others' views. DD used to say she didn't believe in God, but now is interested in "religion shopping."

Usborne has an encyclopedia of world religions that the cover looks very pretty. I've never seen the book.

Much of the books are long read. DH has a habit of getting into a topic, like the Dark Ages and reading a dozen books or more on it and I tend to pick some up.

Now, Paul and the Gospels were the Classic period. So if you go back into that time period in your library or google, you can find many titles. I think a variety of books that covers the history, particularly by noted professors, will provide the information.

I think you have to read a variety of books to form a good opinion. After Classic, you can read about the church development during the Dark Ages, and into the Middle Ages, there is that Borgia period....

Ren

Well, I can share that we've been attending a congregational style church here in New England- so kind of more formal but similar to our old Presbyterian church. It's been very interesting bringing our not-yet-tested-but-probably-gifted child to the 'children's moment' portion of church.
The kids are supposed to sit on the stairs and have a nice informal chat with the pastor/speaker for that morning- usually a simple, easily understood lesson with a visual demonstration/aid of some sort.

Well, by age 2 my DS was LOUDLY incessantly insistently asking questions during the children's moment.
"Where IS God? Is he in the belltower? Is God in THIS PLACE? Can we see him now? I'd like to see Jesus, please"
You get the picture. Imagine all the parishioners uncomfortably shifting in their pews when my child is asking if God is in this place. Yikes.

I guess my point is, we've kept a sense of humor, we've done the best to meet him where he was conceptually and developmentally. Also, I don't have the answers, none of us can explain it all, and besides, we'd disagree. So, I ponder, describe things the way I feel are most helpful to MY child while honoring my version of religion, and use the 'faith' card. I don't know why/how, but that is what I have put my faith in...

Thanks Speechie. I think that relates to my point. HG kids usually don't just sit there and accept. When it doesn't seem logical, they ask the questions.

But since DD watches Nova about space concepts and how long ago everything developed, it doesn't fit with this 7 day period God created everything. And hence the questions.

Anyone hear about that museum somewhere in the south where they have dioramas with dinosaurs and man, because they want it to link to Creation theory. a la Fred Flinstone.

I think I understand what Ren is saying/asking, although I am probably interpreting it in my own way.

DD asks a lot of questions about religion, and I like to "keep 'em coming". For my child, these types of complicated questions are fuel for her brain - the brain that seeks out complexity and contradictions, and revels in some of the beauty found in religion.

Ren, it seems to me what you are describing is the gap between what perhaps you believe and the standards that your church expects you to believe. We spent a little time at a Catholic school, and one of my "take-aways" was that the bar is set pretty high in terms of faith.

I really hope I am not offending anyone. and I'm hoping that my post isn't the one to "smoosh" the thread (thank you, JonLaw, for the laugh there).

I understand the comments about finding a church that meets your faith and views, but as others understood about the cultural thing, I still have my FC dress that my mother designed and had made and DD is going to wear it. Since my mother passed when I was 16, this is a big deal for me, for tradition and memory of my mother, not because of Catholic doctrine. But she does have to pass the quizzes.

You would think they need people...

Thanks for all the comments. And I think we did it without offending anyone JonLaw.

Ren

Are you thinking of the Creation Museum in Kentucky?

http://creationmuseum.org/

This book is on my Wish list on amazon. http://breauxclassroom.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/how_to_read_literature_like_a_professor2.doc
Its outline shows how religious allegories permeate our thoughts.
Another thought I had was to investigate what the Catholic Church is doing socially now, rather than researching its historical development. But I googled, and you'll have to find a different source besides the Internet. I was thinking about explaining whatever good social policies the church stands for. And explaining that common stories are a way to discuss deep universal ideas with each other. (see the link) Hey, subtext is scholarly, ain't it?!

Yes! I really enjoy the questions and then the challenge it is for ME to try and find a creative meaningful answer!! LOL
For example, when my 2 yo really wondered what God looks like, does he have feet, how can he be all around all the time if I can't see him....etc. I found myself enjoying coming up with answered that helped him grasp the concept- so I told him how the air was around, we can breathe it, the wind blows and we can feel it, but it's not visible- and related that to God- satisfied him for a while- but I DO love their questions!

Yes, thanks. They state they have dinosaurs roaming around the Garden of Eden rivers, while Adam and Eve are nearby.

Digressing, since I mentioned DD watching Nova. Did anyone watch the Nova thing on space recently and there is a follow up on time. I remember we had a topic about all the big things have already been thought up already and really, haven't we just scraped the iceberg?

You mean the show that talked about the fact that most of the universe is made up of dark matter and dark energy and we don't actually know what those things are?

We're always scraping the tip of the iceburg.

This website is a great resource for comparative religion.

My son discovered Joseph Campbell's work and that really seemed to help him make sense of the whole question of religion.

Fabric of the Cosmos, it was on Nov 2nd. The second part is next week about Time. Both hosed by Brian Greene.

When I was a child, a really old lady (who lived another 30 years, so why I remember her as really old, I don't know :)) asked us how we knew we had a toothache - because you can feel the pain - how do other people know you have a toothache - they can't see it or feel it - they have to believe or take it on faith - just like you have to do with God.

It stayed with me - and as now a person of science - its still there, how do we know what we know to be true.

DS 5.5 is also super sciency, have the most recent NOVA with Brian Greene taped, we're very excited to watch it - he interestingly does not yet question the discontinuities between religions and science. But he is not in school for that yet - we punted, not sure how hard the gifted K would be in terms of doing after school. So he is more attentive to the more public aspects - how many religions are there, what are the differences, why are they different

Then again, he knows all about DNA and genetics - but has no idea how that sperm and egg meet - we started with him at 2 with a bit of mommy and a bit of daddy - and he asks tons of questions about the uterus and everything - so fascinatingly detailed - but never asked how it got in there so we never told him. I was doing the whole, answer the questions he asks, approach and he asks a ton of q's about everything and we always answer them LOL but in that area he did not ask for specificity. And when I accidentally revealed that Cyberchase is not a real place (hysterical panicked thread here somewhere) - he actually rejected the cognitive dissonance until he could handle it.

I agree, I love the interesting q's - when DS was younger, that was one of the things that really stood out for me, the questions the moms at pre-k got versus the ones I got!

DeHe

We're hipsters here. We read The Fabric of the Cosmos years ago, before it was popular.

Unless you have certain types of experiences.

Then it's more like being hit by a sledgehammer rather than "taking it on faith".

But...a dentist would take an X-ray and do other inspections (including looking at the person's face to see signs of pain). An ER doctor would do the same for fear that he was encountering an addict seeking narcotics.

As scientists, we all have to prove what we claim or no one will believe it (and rightly so).

I think that this lesson is very important for all kids (not just gifted kids): don't believe stuff just because someone said it's true. Make them prove it.

A good friend of mine used to write questions for the A levels. One of his questions was, "It's 1590 and you're an officer in Queen Elizabeth's army. A messenger comes running up and tells you that the queen said 'You have to cross the channel and go invade France!'

Assess the situation. What should you do?"

The correct answer was that you don't invade France without a written order containing the queen's seal and signature. The lesson was not to believe everything people tell you.

LOL.

Exactly.

There is that old story about Newton. His students come in and see this model of the solar system and asked who built it. He says "no one". "How can that be? Someone had to build this." And then Newton says "you can't believe this just came to be, yet you can believe something so much more complex just poofed and came together on its own, with so many laws that fit together" etc. etc.

But we are not here to debate our faiths. It was about helping our growing children make sense of religion within their knowledge of real world science.

Clarification: I was not trying to open a debate about religion.

I was trying to answer the question about making sense of religion in the context of scientific knowledge. I was trying very hard to stick to ideas about education and not get into a debate.

Science (and history and other subjects) require that you prove stuff, so if you're trying to make sense of religion in the context of science, you have to include the idea of proving stuff.

I'm a little late to the discussion since I haven't touched the computer all weekend. I too don't mean to offend but want to offer our experience. My husband does not practice any religion. I also am culturally Catholic. Our local Catholic Church is much more conservative than the one from my childhood. I am not completely accord with their teachings but find comfort in the rituals and space to contemplate my own actions.

I have tried to have DD9 do the Catholic rituals for cultural reasons. I have tried answering her questions and explaining the things to her that I do and don't agree with. The very act of questioning is not welcomed in our local church. She started pointing out that my "pick and choose" attitude is hypocritical and does not jibe with what they say in church. At this point, she cannot accept my abstractions. She is very concrete minded about religion right now -- no symbolism, either things did or didn't happen the way that they say. Recently, she said that, if true, the stories in Bible were the creepiest things that she had ever heard, particularly various miracles. I am finding that her questions are only getting more and more difficult. I am questioning my decision to raise her in a church that espouses some views that I do not accept completely myself.

Then Val, she would never pass her quizzes at church...

I remember the time we played with the Ouija board in Sunday School.

It was a Lutheran church.

I'm not quite sure the Sunday School teacher was on the ball, so to speak.

(I hope I'm matching up Wren's response to the right remark?)

I think Val meant - and I certainly mean - that you can't, or at the very least shouldn't, brush the fact that religion is not offering proof under the carpet. Religion is different from other subjects she encounters, in that everywhere else, she is expected to use her intelligence, spot contradictions, ask searching questions, analyse, and think; in her religious classes, she is required not to do those things, or she will as you say fail her test. She needs to understand that these are different domains - when people give her the message that she is supposed to keep quiet about these contradictions, they don't mean to imply that she should mistrust her intellect in general, only that she is to leave it at the door of her religion classes. You don't want to end up with her feeling vaguely uneasy about the consequences of questioning adults, and concluding that she is supposed to keep quiet about it if her piano teacher or her history teacher tell her things that seem to be contradictory.

Alternatively, you could just encourage her to use her intellect everywhere, and see what happens, but she might indeed fail her test, or refuse to take it.

lol! That's twice in one day you've had me laughing, JonLaw

(Thanks ColinsMum)

Wren, my feeling is that it's okay if she doesn't pass her quizzes. If religious education is in part a journey of discovering the philosophies that work best for a person (and also an area where the right answer is based on the individual), then "failing" a quiz created by people with one set of ideas out of many is really not failing in the traditional sense. It just means that she has different ideas. The nuns might not like it, but that's too bad for them.

What's important is that your daughter knows that if she asks questions that may not be easy to answer, she won't get yelled at or made to feel bad (I certainly don't get the impression from you that you would make her feel bad for asking tough questions!). This may be the most important part of an honest religious education.

LOL!

Religion in its own context as a body of knowledge is an attempt to explain the world. As such, most do a good job of dealing with the intra and interpersonal to a great degree. But each starts to break down when the human relationship with the natural world is examined.

The need by some people to control others and the use of religion in that role is a separate issue.

As for the OP, HG will clearly see the contradictions both in the knowledge base and in peoples' implementation of that knowledge. In my own experience, they may also receive hostility from many of adherents when questions with difficult answers are asked.

You know, when I was in confirmation class, they had us debate the existence of god (no censorship allowed). They randomly divided us up into "atheists" and "believers" and sent us off to go and ponder our sides of the argument before the debate.

The atheist group won, hands down. The priests and the nuns never took sides and were completely okay with everything that was said. I still have a lot of respect for them because of that.

My roommate in college ended up becoming a Catholic priest. However, he ended up running off with the church secretary and was kicked out.

I've considered becoming a Catholic priest. I would first become a Lutheran minister and then convert. Since I was converting into the church, I could keep my wife. Ergo, I would become a married Catholic priest with children.

The key to becoming a married Catholic priest is to make sure that you weren't baptized as a Catholic.

I do not expect DD to accept without question. But I explain it to her in a context that she does understand and why it is done that way.

But it is a Catholic church. The priest is reasonable but you know how some of these women are that run the school part. She is just waiting for DD to "fail" because we are combining 2 years into 1, which she totally opposes. So it is political, religious and ridiculous in one joyous ball.

Ren

We have had similar issues at our house. DH is an atheist, I am Catholic and we agreed that we would raise our daughters Catholic. Our thoughts were (and still are) that it is important for them to have knowledge of what a religion is all about and then when they are adults they can make the decision whether or not they believe what they have been taught.

We too have had to deal with the woman at church who doesn't like children who question things - even if they are just asking for clarification and not trying to challenge anyone.

Our decision was partly based on the fact that we live in a society where the majority of people have some sort of religious aspect to their lives (be it Sunday school or Koran classes or what ever) and we didn't want them to have no frame of reference when dealing with others who were going through their first communion or other milestones in their religious lives.

DD8.5 has already pretty clearly decided that she does not believe and thinks that there are too many contradictions in the teachings. She also makes the argument (pretty convincingly I might add) that if all of these ancient civilizations had gods they believed in and were wrong what makes us right? Why are we so egotistical to think that we know so much more than they did? She also has questions like if God created everything, who created God - because things can't just appear, they have to come from something? along with many other questions based on some scientific theories and laws she knows.

We have some very interesting discussions around this. She has made the decision that she will go to Sunday school, learn what they ask her to and go through the milestones that go with the religion so that she can gather "enough data and evidence" to make a knowledgeable decision about whether or not she believes in God. I have told her that she does not yet have enough information to make a final decision about her beliefs because she has only just started to learn about it. (I used the pretty bad analogy of our rule that they can't say they don't like a food without trying it 3 times before making a decision.)

I think it is interesting to see things through her eyes, and I am impressed that she can clearly express her thoughts about this.

She also has some friends who are much more religious than us, and she understands that there are different beliefs and she just goes along with what they do, in terms of saying grace at meals and prayers before bed, when she goes to their house.

So, I do not have any suggestions, but I just wanted to let you know that we too have gone through a similar thing and continue to go through it.

The day of my Catholic Confirmation (17 years old) was also the day I realized I was an atheist. Unfortunately, my parents were not open to that position. I would have felt so much relief if I could have said "Mom, Dad... I've decided. I don't believe." Instead I continued to play along for a while, avoiding the pending dispute.

Recently my Mom said that raising my children without religion is abusive. My oldest is 2.5 years so this isn't much of an issue yet, but I don't plan to hide religion or faith from my children. I'll teach them about God concepts, and point out that some family members believe, and that others don't. The choice is ultimately up to them. I wont, however, expose them to strangers claiming to speak the truth with certainty while they are still young and impressionable.

I was raised in a Catholic family, and went to catechism several times, but never went any further because my mom, as a divorcee, was not welcome in church. This left me the opportunity to study religion independently, and my mom invited me to try out other faiths, so I often accompanied friends to their churches, to see what it was all about. And while I was still a believer, I couldn't find any sect that matched my beliefs, because things the different churches said about the nature of God did not correlate to the information I'd acquired by reading the Bible independently.

Then, eventually, someone gave me a book which contained some well-known (but not widely expressed) information that contradicted some of the foundational assumptions of Christianity, and that was pretty much the end of my faith. I was about 21 at the time. Later I met my future wife, who was involved with one of those churches that puts the fun in fundamentalism, and she kept getting in trouble with them because she kept on questioning things, someone would give her a book to shut her up, which she'd read, and find it contained nothing that addressed her question. So, she brought some of those questions to me, I had answers, even if they were of the, "We're not really sure, but this is our best guess" variety, and she finally felt satisfied. So, there went her beliefs.

Now, we're on the opposite end of this conversation, because we're raising our little girl in an atheist family, and we're dealing with the difficulty of teaching her tolerance for the beliefs of others. Since my wife and I were originally believers, we have a respect for that perspective that she doesn't have.

What's interesting is that she's guilty of the same process that drives religion, which is to accept ideas as an article of faith, without really understanding them. She doesn't understand why she doesn't believe in God... she's accepting it as an article of faith, because her parents said so.

Mind you, this is the same kid who refused to believe us at first when we told her of dinosaurs and planets, because we've done a great job of teaching her skepticism via the method of amusing ourselves by answering randomly selected questions with nonsense.

And in today's metaphysical lesson, we discuss some of the problems inherent in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

I haven't logged on in a while so this may be late.

I didn't provide links, but I listed a couple of authors. They are both scholars and theologians. There are many more I could list. Those two came to mind first.

I love this discussion because I have such a similar situation! My DH and I were both raised Catholic and are "half" practicing Catholics. We go to church in waves, sometimes consistent, then a few weeks off, etc. Also have a 2 & 4 year old so makes the Catholic Mass experience difficult. Anyway, we too like the tradition and community of the church, more so than the doctrine, etc. I can relate to 2giftgirls story about Butter, as my DS9 has read all the Percy Jackson/Rick Riordan series (some books twice and three times!). In the beginning, when I saw him getting caught up in the fantasy aspect of it, I had to explain that it was fiction and explained what mythology was, this helped. However, I did not use any comparison to our "God", as I knew that would provoke questions.

Funny story though, my DS9 had to do a power point presentation at school, and the parents were invited-I didn't know his topic beforehand but he was really excited about it. You can imagine how squeamish I was when he got up for his presentation and it was on Hades, the god of the underworld! That was one of those awkward moments as a parent-but I have to laugh about it now, simply because we live in a very "bible belt" part of the country. I just try to keep the faith light, not to heavy, and if the questions arise, then handle them as they come. Luckily he goes to a school with many different religions, which I, being raised a Catholic school student all my life, was never exposed to. I like the fact that he knows other religions and sees and somewhat understands their traditions as well. Good luck!

I was a HG kid raised as a Southern Baptist in the Bible Belt. When I went to college, someone had to explain to me about believing in God but not believing in a literal interpretation of the Bible. I asked, "How do you know which parts of the Bible to believe?"

I was confirmed an Episcopalian after college. It probably helped that I knew a couple of ordained Anglican priests who were also Rhodes Scholars.

These days I don't attend church regularly for reasons I don't entirely understand myself. They seem to have much more to do with my difficulty of breaking into crowds than any matter of principle.

But I also teach world history to 6th graders, and part of that is teaching them about major world religions. I'll be showing them the documentary "Promises" (2002) this January. In that video, Jewish and Palestinian children (9-12) both cite scripture when saying Jerusalem belongs to them, not those other people! We'll also see how different members of the same group have different opinions, and how people--sometimes--change their minds as they get older.

It's part of my game in that class to keep students guessing as to my own religion. One of them asked me the other day if I was Hindu! If they guessed based on sheer volume of material, they should probably guess that I am Muslim. I just think that learning to recognize and live with the diversity of Islamic beliefs and believers will be one of the major challenges of their age.

I don't mean to offend either, but if your own formation in the Catholic faith is limited to three classes that you attended in early elementary school, I'm not sure how you expect to be able to discuss these sorts of issues with your daughter in a balanced and meaningful way.

"In the right corner, wearing red trunks, weighing in at 200 lbs, are several large stacks of secular history books written for college educated adults.

And in the left corner, in the green trunks, weighing in at 3 lbs, is My Friend Jesus, a religious education book written for the average seven year old."

One doesn't have to be HG to see that there's a bit of a mismatch in terms of depth and rigor. If you could share your criteria for a "scholarly" work, or give specific examples of books you've been reading, perhaps others could suggest some comparable Catholic authors. (Just off the top of my head, I'd recommend anything by Fr. Stanley Jaki on the subject of science and religion.)

I'm not exactly sure what this means, but wanted to point out that observant Muslims, Jews, and even most Protestants haven't historically considered the Catholic Eucharist to be a "nice tradition." They saw it more as blasphemy, idolatry, and perhaps cannibalism. Many people have been put to death over it. It's not like a Quinceanera, or having cranberry sauce on Thanksgiving.

Anyway, for what it's worth, my husband and I are believing and practicing Catholics, and we see no conflict between our religious faith and our intellectual lives. But we are pretty hard-headed about it. I find it's often the people who are on the fence who are more sentimental. Maybe because they can just sort of blip over the uncomfortable parts, whereas we have to account for the good, the bad, and the Borgias... *and* explain it all in terms that are understandable to asynchronous 6 year olds.

We are practicing Catholics as well... I have found a way to blend my faith and my intellectual life.

DD9 has had a lot of questions the past few years, which we have dealt with the best we could. Luckily, the lady who runs the religious ed program seems to get her, which certainly helps.

Lately we are dealing with terminal illness. Her grandfather, who she is very close to has terminal cancer. That has brought up a whole host of new questions, and I really feel that she is searching for comfort from her faith. Aren't we all? She recently read the book "Heaven is for Real," which is written about a child who had a near death experience. The book did seem to bring her some comfort. Just thought I'd recommend it to anyone with children who seem to be searching for reassurance.

I guess for me, I see incompatibility in the religious requirement for faith. Faith requires that you believe something in the absence of proof (or even in the presence of proof to the contrary, such as creationism over evolution). This idea is the opposite of scientific requirements.

Depending on the age, I really don't see the faith component as being all that difficult for kids. There's a huge portion of a child's development where they rely on their parents for information, and if a parent said it, it must be true. Isn't that just like faith in the divine? And if a parent says God exists, then their faith in their parents as authoritative sources of information gives becomes faith in God.

So, most of the questions come from trying to integrate that information with anything new, especially when there's an apparent contradiction. It's just like when a kid notices the rain hood over the chimney... they know Santa is fat, they know he comes down the chimney, and they know there's no way a man of any size is going to fit. The child does not question the existence of Santa, the child questions the method by which Santa is going to get past that hood.

The REALLY difficult questions usually begin to come much later, when the child learns the benefits of questioning received wisdom and gains familiarity with the scientific method.

This thought is not original with me, but faith is not the absence of doubt any more than courage is the absence of fear.

I guess that's one of the things that bothers me the most about religion and kids: this practice amounts to teaching kids to believe whatever (even in the absence of evidence) because someone in authority said so.

FWIW, my eldest was questioning religious belief on his own when he was five and a half-ish. At that time, he started asking a lot of questions about god. I believe that people should make decisions about religion for themselves, and was strictly neutral with him whenever this topic came up (as was my husband). Example: some people believe x, some believe y. Some people believe in a place called heaven, where....

He weighed the ideas for a while, and by the time he was six or so, he had decided in favor of heavy agnosticism. It's been over five years and he hasn't changed his mind.

Most outsiders can't imagine that such a young child could make an informed decision about religious belief, and insist that his parents did it (this reaction reminds me of the he's-not-gifted-you-just-hothoused-him argument). We didn't, and he did make that decision.

I think these reactions were partially due to the idea that religious belief/faith should be the default in a child. I disagree, and wonder, "Why?"

This is how I think of it: Science tells us the how, but cannot answer the why questions. Throughout human history, religion has been about our attempts to understand the why of things. Thus, they deal with very different issues and, in my view, are therefore not incompatible.

And most of us take alot of what we call science on faith as well. I have never seen an electron, but I believe they exist. Science is a social practice and not "Truth" either. It is based on theories and using evidence to support that theory. It was once scientific fact that the sun revolved around the earth. Science is not infallible.

But...we have an enormous amount of hard, demonstrable evidence for the existence of electrons, including tracks in emulsions and a zillion other things. To take your argument a step further, I've never seen my brain, but I believe it's there. But if I really doubt its existence, I can prove that it's there with a simple MRI or CAT scan.

Science is a process that never claimed to be infallible (though religions and religious leaders make this claim). It requires that your ideas be proven right in order for them be accepted. All responsible scientists accept this idea: if you can prove that I was wrong, then I have to reconsider my ideas.

As for the sun going around the earth, the guy who discovered that this wasn't true was forced by religious leaders to take it all back or die, was nearly labeled a heretic, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest. The church didn't fully remove his works from their list of prohibited books until ~250 years later. So, not the best example.

Billions of people believe that their children must follow their religion to go to heaven and avoid going elsewhere.

I'm an atheist myself but keep quiet around the children, mainly because my wife want to raise them as X. Religion provides a sense of belonging to a group (with the side-effect that people of other religions are NOT part of the group). People tend to marry other people of the same religion, and I mildly prefer that my children marry people of the same religion/ethnic group as our family's. That's another benefit of my children being at least nominally (like their dad) of religion X. Since I cannot honestly proselytize for any religion, I will let my wife take the lead.

I don't think there is a "why," except for the ones we come up with for ourselves.

As for electrons... whether or not you've seen them, you've certainly had an opportunity to see them manipulated in ways that confirm their existence. The fact that you can see these words I've typed from thousands of miles away is one confirmation.

It was never a scientific fact that the sun revolved around the earth.

I don't have children, and I'm not going to have children. But I have often thought that if I did, I might raise them in a somewhat different faith from my own, under the assumption that they'll probably convert to whatever they feel like when they get older.

Some of us more ecumenical-minded Christians find it easier to get along with people of other faiths than we find it to get along with other Christians. I heard a similar thought expressed by Chief Rabbi (of the UK) Lord Sacks on the radio program and podcast "On Being" (formerly "Speaking of Faith"). BTW, I highly recommend that program to more mature children, teenagers, and adults who want to learn more about different religious traditions and practices in an intellectual, if not a scientific way.

I also find that some atheists and/or scientists can be every bit as dogmatic as fundamentalists.

My 4 yr old asked me what we are, I said we're people, we're human people. �He said we've got to be more than that. �What else are we? �I said you, your dad, and Esperanza and Wella are hispanic, but I'm not, but all of us are Americans. �He said, we must be scientists, because scientists take notes and investigate. �(PBS Sid the Science kid et. al). �
If we were religious I would probably have interpreted this question as deep and mystical and thought that sharing my beliefs was answering his question. �As it is, I realized later, I think this was from the ongoing conversation about the catchy jingle, "We are farmers. Bump ba dum da dump dump dump."�

I answered culturally because I heard him saying, "we're not just people what else are we?" and thought he meant what groups are we part of? �(military heritage on my side, hispanic heritage from his dad and our town) �really I think he meant we are not farmers. �Farmers kill the cows for us to eat so we don't have to. �What are we? �but I wasn't thinking about that commercial at that time

Science is an interesting thing. �We did Supercharged Science robots lab over the summer. �I just bought him a chemistry set, minus any chemistry, to practice pouring water around ---(like Waldorf preschool and Piaget's volume conservation, lol, kinda). �

Well, he's been asking all summer to "do pouring science". �I thought, well, let's practice the pouring part first, lol.

Oh my and oh golly, I love that.


Love that too.

You can always try Mint Mentos and Diet Coke in the driveway (the challenge is to devise a chute-like object that will deliver all the Mentos into the soda bottle at one time). Google this if you have no idea what I'm talking about. Remember to invite the neighbors. It's fun for all!

Both DH and I are atheists in an extended family of southern baptists. While my parents are not practicing and haven't for many, many years, they both have a deep rooted faith in a higher power. My grandmother is still very much practicing and tells me all the time that I'm damning DS by refusing to baptize him. Even pre-atheism, I had a very hard time stomaching the idea of a benevolent and loving God who would send small children to hell because they hadn't been dunked in a tub of water.

DS is 8 and is a very committed and practicing Greek mythologist(?). I don't really even know if we have a term for it anymore... but he very much prays and gives offerings to whatever god he needs the favor of for any particular event, ceremony etc. He had a major stage performance today and took a few minutes before we left to have words with Dionysus.

I just roll with it. I can't very well foster a believe in magic, Harry Potter, Santa and the Tooth Fairy and tell him that Dionysus isn't real. He'll find his own path soon enough.

As for religious education, we consider ourselves to be Secular Humanists and rarely identify ourselves as atheists because that's just the beginning. For some reason, atheism and anarchy often get lumped together- that is not our belief set. We seek out the "why", ask questions, value humanity and human life, teach the golden rule etc. We operate on the principal that this is the only life you're going to get, so you'd better do it right the first time!

We encourage DS to seek out information about other religions and would take him to "research" if he asked. I have always felt that information is power. I've had too many friends who believed because they were told to do so and found a huge crisis of faith in their early 20s because of it.

We were doing the whole going to Mass and sunday school, though missed a few masses, not the sunday school, since she was in remedial coursework, missing last year.

And DH and I are having a harder and harder time with the going. Though, to our surprise, DD is liking it. Maybe because there are school friends, but she says she likes the ritual. Maybe being part of it. But the lessons...

And after talking with the priest on Monday, I just got the feeling of follow the rules and you are allowed in the club, kind of feeling. They like the sheep. He even acknowledged the fact that the largest growing population was ex-Catholics and said it matter of factly, not as a problem. As long as you keep the obedient ones.

I think I have to find more of a thinking church. I was thinking of Ethical Culture or something. There has to be something that has a nice ritual for DD and tolerable from a teaching perspective. DD did like doing the Christmas pageant. She was Gabriel. I do tell her that they had to keep the script simple, people were not educated, they needed statues and pictures to tell them stories. They needed to move the birth of Jesus to bring in the Pagans. Very strange that they celebrate the Immaculate conception in December but he was born 12 and half months later.

Ren

Don't want to take this thread off any farther from it's path but you might want to ask that priest about Immaculate conception. It might not be what you think it is.

Ren,

Have you looked into the Unitarian Universalists?

I consider myself an anti-theist. Because I hold this comparatively extreme view and because I take it very seriously (and find it a fascinating area to study), I have undertaken in-depth formal study in theology and philosophy of religion. I won't go in to my personal feelings about religion, because I don't think this is the place for it. However I did just want to say, for those who are interested, there is an excellent book called "Reading Philosophy of Religion", by Graham Oppy and Michael Scott that provides a very impartial look at both sides of the major arguments for and against monotheism and polytheism (Oppy is an athiest, but is very careful to show where atheistic arguments fail too). It's an excellent resource for tackling tricky questions (both for and against belief)

I did just want to say that while I personally have very strong concerns about the role of religion in any society, I do feel that faith is a very personal thing, so I don't shove my own views down dd's throat, though I am perhaps not as impressively impartial as some here - though I also explain why people's faith is meaningful and important to them

In terms of participating in traditions, dd has friends from a variety of different religious backgrounds and they tell her about their beliefs and their families include her in some of their traditions. As a result dd is part of lots of communities, experiences other people's traditions and we have our own traditions with friends and family - which are meaningful to us.

Worshiping the Greek gods in the modern age is called Hellenism. I have a friend in Florida who has been pagan for many years, but has been worshiping Hermes for the past few.

Episcopal Church. All of the ceremony, none of the guilt.

Only thing is, the average age of the congregation has been travelling north for decades. Most of the time, Episcopal churches have to pool their youth among several congregations before they can achieve a critical mass.

I really enjoyed this dime store fiction book depicting the Episcipalian "Old Guard" mentality "the last suppers" by diane mott davidson.

In 2002 the Unitarians had the highest average SAT score, and the SAT is arguably an intelligence test. Here are some statistics from a blog post
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2008/02/pentecostals-are-stupid-unitarians-are-smart/

"Mean IQ of whites from General Social Survey by religious affiliation
Episcopalian 109.9
Lutheran 107.4
Mormon 105.7
Presbyterian 102.3
United Methodist 101.8
Southern Baptist 98.0
Assembly of God 94.5
Pentecostal 92.2

Surprised? I hope you�re not so ignorant that you are! Here are the top 10 religious groups in SAT score from 2002:

Average SAT score by religion for 2002, average ~1000, about 40% of each students take it

Unitarian-Universalists 1209
Judaism 1161
Quakers 1153
Hinduism 1110
Mennonite 1097
Reformed Church of America 1097
Episcopal 1096
Evangelical Lutheran Church 1094
Presbyterian Church (USA) 1092
Baha�i 1073"

I was led to believe that the SAT was no longer a useful measure of general intelligence since it was redesigned in 1994.

Hi everyone - please stay on topic in regards to the intent of the original post on this thread. We've all seen these types of threads veer off topic and I'd like to not have to shut it down if possible.

Have a wonderful holiday season!

Mark

DS8 oops 9 (BDAY today) became very interested in religion while studying history. He took note of the fact that most of the wars were based on religion in one way or another.

We are not a religious family, but I have always found peoples beliefs fascinating and my son seems to feel the same. He will eventually form his own opinion, until then he explores various belief systems and cultures.

I met a guy about 20 years ago. The father was Jewish, the mother Catholic and he grew up with both. As an adult, he became interested in all religions and held this class and had a leading religious leader come and talk each week.

I thought that was really interesting. He researched religion, just didn't follow in blind faith. And I know someone mentioned faith in the thread.

I have heard of the Unitarians Val, and I thought of them. I think I went once or twice years ago. It is hard to kind of leave the whole thing because it is "our culture", historic culture. But that is not why you go to church. Hence, the path should be different. And DD is interested in the investigation. I know the Catholic doctrine won't work the long haul. But now I have stuck her in for 3 months and she is into the pomp and circumstance. Figure it will ride the wave.

Funny, we were watching a Nova on Darwin and DNA that says we are decended from fish. So I said to her, "were Adam and Eve fish?" She was not amused. But seeing, several times, the fossils of that couple they found from million years ago, walking along, she has understood evoluation from preschool.

Some things don't reconcile. What is that quote? "God was awfully fond of beetles" because there are a kazillion varieties.

Ren

I have read this entire thread.

My thoughts are many and varied on this topic, and I take the matter very seriously.

Saint Augustine wisely advised: "Never judge a philosophy by its abuse." Unfortunately, most people judge "religion" by its abuse, and they then inflict that judgment on their children.

Twenty-eight years ago, I was diagnosed with an incurable life-threatening disease that had only a horrific unimaginable major surgery with an extremely poor prognosis for success as its possible treatment � a surgery that had as its best hope the mere possibility that the condition would not worsen. I contemplated suicide as a better alternative because the disease symptoms were intolerable, but I decided to go on a spiritual quest first � a most sincere, deeply heartfelt, and very motivated search for God. If I could not find God to my satisfaction (read: if God did not reveal God's Presence to me), I was done.

Well, my spiritual quest � what I call my war experience � lasted fully two years, and those years were at times excruciating in every way imaginable. The dark night of the soul is pitch black and icy cold � just harrowing and unmercifully bleak. I would not wish what I went through on my very worst enemy, and I have truly hated a couple of people in my lifetime.

But I can report to you with absolute certainty that the Presence of God is real in every sense of the word, including in the physical realm. Unfortunately, though, there is great sadness in that blessing because most people do not believe me.

Ask yourself: If you actually physically encountered an angel, how many people who have known you for your whole life would believe your story? I can tell you the answer to that question is: "Almost no one." And that is the dilemma of religion.

But the conundrum of it all is this: Explain the Jewish Passover celebration and its precise and elaborate story and rituals that have been faithfully repeated every year for thousands of years. Explain the conversion of the Pharisee Saul of Tarsus to become Saint Paul, a man who endured utter brutalities for his new-found faith. Explain the Pentecost event, how a cowering group of cowards suddenly became profoundly bold and courageous in their faith, despite having to eventually suffer terrible consequences as a result. None of those three explanations can make any sense at all unless you factor in an undeniable miracle � an intervention of the supernatural realms into our natural world.

Children should not be denied the wonder of it all. Nor should the wonder of it all be diminished for them by those who judge a philosophy by its abuse. If you cannot know God, do not make the mistake of thinking that your children cannot know God. If your children know God, believe them, for they might have been visited by angels.

The churches in our world generally fail in their work, especially when they ever imagine that their work depends solely on their own efforts, which is an imagination that is almost always standing in their way of getting things done. It is terribly sad. I attended a Lutheran parochial school from first grade through eighth grade, and I would not teach God the way I was taught God. Somehow by the grace of God my faith survived anyway, though almost all of my siblings have become hostile atheists. Such is my fate.

My more precise thoughts can be read at:
http://steven-a-sylwester.blogspot.com/2011/01/revealed-truth-love-god-science.html#

But I am not one who is opposed to science. In fact, I champion science, and am doing my very utmost to fund STEM education in America's K-12 public schools. Please read:
http://steven-a-sylwester.blogspot.com/2011/12/this-deserves-macarthur-genius-award.html
Also read: http://school-usa-proposal.blogspot.com/

Whatever you do, do not mock God. If you must, just turn and walk away � be a prodigal to your heart's content. In the story of The Prodigal Son, the dutiful son � perhaps the church-going son � was the greater disappointment to the father, and was the son who had the most to learn. Remember that.

Steven A. Sylwester

I pretty sure I can prove that I'm descended from inanimate matter without having to use DNA evidence.

Wren, I would suggest "The top ten proofs" by Bob Dutko It's a CD series that explains alot of possible questions your child may have. I beleive it's intended for adults but we've had dd7 & dd8 listen to them with us.

Thanks for the suggestion Skylersmommy. It is not that she has a lot of questions, maybe they are a lot for a kid.

As most of you get and know, she has asked a lot of questions since she could ask questions. Particularly when they something is out of sequence. I phrase it that way because I do want to distinquish between faith and religion.

Anyway, I am finding I am explaining things as I have come to believe things, which make me a heretic.

It is kind of like here. You take what feels right for your kid and leave what doesn't. Same with religion. You go with what works and feels right. And sometimes the path changes. I just wish they wouldn't make it so hard to belong.

Ren

It's strange to me that they want to make it so hard to belong.

Kind of like the opposite of Mormonism. They go out of their way to get you to sign up.

I'm just glad that I can potentially become a married Catholic priest because I'm baptized Lutheran. That exception to the rule always cracks me up and kind of makes me *want* to become a married Catholic priest just so that I can wander around bringing my wife and kids to mass.