Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Age or Ability Specific Forums Pre-school Toddlers and Intensity

The part about asking 20 times for the smoothie sounds like a toddler with AS; a brain that is stuck on one idea and can't be dissuaded from thinking about it even though being stuck on it is not getting him anywhere. (And you are right to make the stuck-ness not get rewarded; it just makes it worse.)

I think you've mentioned neurodiversity, so you might not want to go there... but from my point of view, if you think he's on the spectrum, getting professional help might be really useful in improving his coping skills, and getting him to be more able to move on from being stuck (very important skill).

We got a late start (dx at 5; I would have loved to have had help at the toddler stage) but we have done very well with an eclectic, non-rigid form of ABA therapy. It also incidentally trained us to be the kind of parents DS needed. Speech therapy for pragmatic language can also be really useful at this age; it's harder to catch up these skills later.

If your DS is on the spectrum, a lot of things that everybody else seems to use in their parenting will probably *not* work for him. For my kid, time-outs were a total disaster and 1-2-3 Magic even worse. He didn't have the self-calming skills that most kids have. Those skills needed to be taught and reinforced first. So from my perspective, advice for general intense toddlers may not work that well for an intense toddler with AS.


I wouldn't call that a compromise, but rather skilled redirection. As long as you're not giving him what he's melting down over, I think there's a place for this strategy in your arsenal.

Maybe the most consistent rule in my house is "if you scream or whine for something, you won't get it." But if I can help DS not think about the thing he's after, what he's learning is that his brain is more flexible than he thought, and he can make his brain think about something else. That seems a pretty positive lesson.

DeeDee

Hi Adhoc! ((Waving Wildly!!) Great to see you. This is definitely a gifted issue! Perhaps gifted + personality, or gifted + twice exceptionality - but yes, you've come to the right place!

I'm glad to hear that you are considering sign language - this seems to be what's comfortable for him right now, so it seems an excellent place to start.

I would teach him a sign that roughly means 'I'm proud of myself for doing a good job managing myself" or 'I Waited!' or "I relaxed me!"

Perhaps the palms facing each other, held at head or heart level. That way you can praise him and use the sign at the slightest self mastery he demonstrates. So when he chooses to clean the Broccoli, you and he get to celebrate his flexibility! But think smaller. Anytime he responds positively to ANY small request, do the happy dance.

The next thing to figure out is 'is it dangerous to him to hyperventilate?'
Search the Internet, find a Physician you trust, but as heartbreaking as it is to you, be at least clear in your mind if the hyperventilating is dangerous to him in any way. My mom used to hold her breath and turn blue as a 1 year old if my Grandmother didn't shovel the food in fast enough. She would get into a rage, and then hold her breath. She wasn't spectrumy, but I do suspect ADHD to some degree. My Grandma did what anyone would do: shovel faster!

Isn't natural to be 'conditioned' by out children to shovel faster. I pretty sure that my Mom didn't hold her breath and turn blue to 'punish' or 'manipulate' my Grandmother, but it did set a leader/follower tone to their relationship.

So I think that saying 'distress vs. manipulation' is too simplistic a model for our intense kids.

I think it's possible for 'unhelpful' behavior, such as hyperventilation or turning blue to be 'reinforced' by 'shoveling faster' or even negative attention. I think learning to 'meditate under pressure' is about the only non-reinforcing response. One doesn't have to do this perfectly, and in fact, if it's difficult to do but one persists, that's all to the better! What you want to achieve isn't 'freezing a kid out' but 'getting your own emotions out of the way' and giving the child the gift of self-learning. My mom did eventually learn to channel her intensity into productive channels, at least until the new and more stressful challenges were born.

Weirdly enough, I think that I'm 'showing faith' in my son when I let him muddle around in his negative feelings as long as he needs to as long as he isn't hurting or 'wet blanketing' anyone else. Boys are funny. As a Female, I love the give and take of asking for help. Most Males I know truly find it difficult to maintain their self-respect while receiving help. I set out to prove that this was nurture, and not nature - and count myself in the failure column. This isn't to say that some boys have personalities where this would have worked, but to remind us that some boys don't.

I do think that professional help/evaluation is worth seeking. It's not your job to have a diagnosis before you get on the evaluation train - although I totally get WHY it feels that way. You had me thinking that way right here:
The high-pitched screaming thing would be enough to jolt me out of any kind of leadership position as a Parent, and pop me right into 'learning mode' like a lab rat in a cage. I wouldn't trust myself not to 'shovel faster' in those conditions.

I love that you are thinking about parenting each child as they need to be parented. Of course I prefer a parenting style where a slightly raised eyebrow stops the unwanted behavior and a hug is soon to follow. That what I wished I had gotten. But that isn't the child I was given. Actually that is the child I have now, but boy-o-boy-o it took some wild determination for me to get into the driver's seat and give something the felt very unnatural to me to get there.

So glad you had the greatness to come on and ask, and so glad you've already gotten some great feedback.
What does DH think of all this?

Love and More Love,
Grinity

This thread is really helpful for me too. DD (21mo) is very very verbal and speaking in complete long sentences but will STILL get fixated, just like you were describing, on one thing and just not let it go.

This AM she threw a fit for 1 1/2 hours (screaming/kicking/demanding/trying to bargain because she wanted to take her pacifier outside of her crib (we do not let her but DH forgot and let her bring it into our bed this AM... I had to then go back and try to get her to put them back in the crib). I am so tempted to just throw them all away because they cause so many issues but DD just potty trained a month ago and I am worried that if I take them away now it will be too much change in a short amount of time.

She will throw full-fledge fits like this (usually not lasting as long, usually 15-30min or so) at least once a week. Whether it is not wanting to get in her carseat, wanting a fruit snack, ect. She has very high-pitched screaming, and always has from the day she came home from hospital. She has also ALWAYS been just as demanding/intense as she is now. If once, just once, there is an exception (like today when DH let her take the pacis out of her crib) she will loose it if we try to go back on it then test it out for at least a week after. She doesn't forget! I am dreading this week and the paci issue... Poor DH didn't even know what went wrong!

Lot's more feedback. Thank you all for the great advice.

Austin - we did a lot of "use your words" with my daughter, but she was a lot more verbally expressive. It's not that I don't do it with my son, just that I don't do it with any expectation that it will result in a sentence. I wish I had thought of acting out meltdowns with her. That was a struggle for us for many years. Not sure it would've helped, but one more tool in the arsenal couldn't have hurt.


Colinsmum - that's great feedback. Thank you for it. It also fits well with my parenting philosophy for him, so it was very helpful.


Annette - thank you for the book recommendations. I'll definitely look into them and see what I think will work. I see a trip to the library coming up for me.

I've already begun trying the empathy thing you mentioned. It's hard to tell how well it's working in such a short time, but so far so good. I just need to think of it quicker now. I think it does help, even with the spectrum issues. I'm catching it while he can still think logically, before he becomes pure emotion.


JonLaw - I think I have some problems there as well. I've gotten better over the years, but it's been a long road. Maybe using some of this great advice with my son, will help me handle my own emotions as well.


DeeDee - I really appreciate you posting here. I hope I don't scare off anyone with my "neurodiversity" ramblings. I'm interested in hearing more about the form of ABA therapy you're using with your son. I'm not opposed to therapy as long as it doesn't drive all the good parts of Autism out of a person. I'll understand if you don't want to share it - or if you've posted somewhere else, maybe you could just provide a link. But I think one of the challenges I've had with coming to a decision on whether or not to get him evaluated now is with wondering what the resulting therapy would look like. So it would be great to get an idea of what is working for another family.

I do know of a good psychologist in the area who specializes in AS, and we're fairly close to the UC Davis MIND Institute, so there's probably some options for us that I haven't explored yet. I think I need to find a new pediatrician so I can start down this path.

Also - I like your term of "skilled redirection." I've been doing even more of that lately. Adorably, this resulted in him wanting to help butter every slice of toast this morning. Not so adorably, that resulted in a pile of butter on the floor. But one step at a time.


Grinity - HI!! Waving back at you! I never really left. I'm just quiet-ish.

It is probably not dangerous for him to hyperventilate. He did do the turning blue and passing out thing for a couple of months when he was younger and, as scary as it was, it wasn't dangerous. I had to convince my husband of this so he would stop yelling at him to "BREATH!" I'm sure the yelling didn't help him calm down.

And I'm not as worried about hyperventilation from the physical standpoint as much as I am from the emotional standpoint. I'm hoping that by catching the tantrum earlier though, I can provide the emotional support he needs as a building block for self soothing. I think self soothing is going to be an issue right now for him, so I guess I'm just a bit conflicted because I'm not sure how much of that has to come from within him, without me providing that building block. And I'm trying to decide what is right for him as an individual. I've always felt like he is a very independent person, but when he needs support and help, he really needs it. Maybe I should just go with that as my gut feeling and give him the building blocks right now. We're very much attachment parents, so we tend to proscribe to the thought that self-soothing comes over time through strong emotional bonds. I guess I have my answer. Sorry for this rambling paragraph, but I think it was important for me to write it out.

I think my daughter is like your son in terms of asking for help. I don't know if it's a self-respect thing for her though. Maybe more of an independence thing. I get the sense that she is exceptionally independent for her age. It's hard to say since I don't have a lot to compare to, but I get the sense that if she had to live on her own tomorrow, she could make it work. So if she's having negative emotions, I need to let her muddle through it. But this is a much more recent development for us. And I'm sure I've made a lot of mistakes getting to this point.

You're right that it isn't my job to have the dx before I go for an evaluation. It's just so hard not to since I know so much about ASDs already. I'm trying to be objective, but man oh man, it's hard! This kid is basically me as a boy, with a slight bit of my husband thrown in the soup. So I know where a lot of this stuff is coming from.

What does my husband think of all this? Well - I'm going to show him this thread tomorrow and see what he says. He's very open to new suggestions and thoughts, so I think he'll get a lot out of this. He's our son's primary caregiver right now as a SAHD. I think that has it's advantages and disadvantages. Since my son is so much like me, it's probably best that he is the primary caregiver though. But I also think he doesn't have as much patience as I do to deal with the intensity we're facing, so he's had a lot of frustrated moments lately. I tend to be the more level headed one when my son is screeching or hyperventilating... he reacts much stronger to it and it is hard for him to watch it play out. I think some of the "meditating under pressure" advice may help with this.

He adores the little man though and it's wonderful to see them together. I hear lots of peals of laughter between mixed with vacuum sounds (that's my son's other obsession at the moment - and one we can do more often). I think he's open and ready to try anything that we think will help, which is about all anyone can possibly ask for.


GHS - Thanks for posting. It's always nice to hear that you're not alone. It's probably too early for this for you guys, but I thought I'd mention for when your DD gets a bit older. My daughter used pacifiers until about 3.5. She had them hidden all around the house. I finally got her to give them up by using the "Pacifier Fairy." Like the Tooth Fairy, but with pacifiers.

As for the intense screaming, hopefully some of the great advice people provided here can help you as well.

Adhoc, sent you a PM...

DeeDee

LOL... I was the stuffed toy.

I've been re-reading Super Freakonomics and Outliers, the latter of which is probably my all-time favorite book.

Thanks La Texican.


Jack'smom - did you mean to post to a different thread?

I got that link from googling the second bad review from "Kids, parents, and power struggles" which is by the same author as "raising your spirited children". �That reviewer listed the three people that labeled the parenting style spectrum that all the other books paraphrase from. �
I'm searching to define for me what "parenting" is (also what "education" is). �Because I'm not going to read every parenting book out there, but Amazon reviews gives a good cliff's note anyway.