Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional A wee bit frustrated

So, at our meeting this year, it was decided dd(10,AS/GAD) should try 6th grade math on the computer. She's already accelerated in English & Science, and is generally more of a "humanities" type of girl, but we decided to give it a trial.

Much to my surprise, she's actually doing pretty well with it until she gets to the quizzes. Each one is 10 questions and the program allows 60 min to complete.(Education2020 program.)She's whizzing through the labs and pretests with normally 90-100%s, gets to the quizzes and usually misses at least 2. I have prompted until I'm blue in the face, "take your time", "check your answers" the usual litany. Her homebound teacher has done the same. She has not taken more then 10 minutes on any of them. Her higher grades are still keeping her at a "B" average, and part of me says it may be good for her. But it kills me because when we review the quiz, she can tell me exactly what she did wrong! Any hints? I don't want her in the habit of sloppy/quick work. Should I just let it go? Other than the "uh-oh Mom, I did it again", she seems pretty unconcerned about it.

I think, if my child was getting acceleration and is doing well, I'd let it go. Is it really about the grade or the process? Is she absorbing the information? And no one will really care later if she got straight A's in elementary. Maybe even push it along to another level because the test is too easy? If it was harder maybe she would slow down? Or double check the concepts against another cirriculum?

It is surprising to see her getting a B, in all honesty, but my concerns are 1. I don't want her to get into the habit of rushing through and passing anyway, then think it's fine; and 2. I'd like her to get into the habit now of working carefully, hopefully down the road it's a skill she's going to need.
I think part of the problem is that in the past she's always been able to coast, not have to study, etc, even with accelerated work. I mentioned above that she does homebound (due to another medical condition), she basically does 5 hrs of school a week, and is done. She might do another hrs worth of homework - a week, not a night. She pulled a 4.0 last year on this schedule, and is headed the same way this year (not counting the math, obviously). We have started doing some supplemental stuff, which helps, but even with the acceleration, she's coasting for the most part.

If there were a consequence that meant something to her, she would be more concerned. She knows she can do it. You know she can do it. There's not much potential for intrinsic motivation there.

Even in college, I often rushed through my tests very quickly, since after the test I could be free! Free! I just hated being in the testing room. If I were taking these tests at home, I might be persuaded to do better at them if I were made to stay at the computer for 20-25 minutes (or until I was done, whichever came later), but maybe with an iPod listening to some really good music that I knew wouldn't distract me, and maybe a snack.

Luckily for me, I have quite a collection of what I call "music for quiet productivity". This includes instrumental as well as vocals sung in foreign languages. The music has enough of a rhythm/texture to keep me buzzing on task, but nothing to distract me from the task at hand.

This might also be the time for some limited, positive extrinsic motivation. If she gets 10 consecutive A's on quizzes, she gets to go to ______ or do ______.

Just goes to show how different kids with AS can be. Many would be totally freaked out about missing some points.

I think your decision about letting it go or not should be based in part on whether asking her to raise her standards will raise her anxiety past a tolerable level.

In principle it's good to encourage "do your best work," and looking over and correcting are important skills. (Does she make the same errors in pencil/paper math? The computer isn't an inert tool; it changes the game.)

My DS (9, AS) generally whizzes through work he doesn't like, often with sloppy results; I have hovered over him to slow him down, and I urge checking of work, in hopes that this will eventually be internalized.

We also talk about a scale of "poor... OK... good... excellent" and have him examine his output to see where it falls on the scale. His self-concept doesn't match reality sometimes, and IMO it's good to have him check in with other people's standards for what constitutes adequate or excellent work. So far this has not made him anxious, so we're all good. If he became too anxious, I'd tone my process down.

HTH,
DeeDee

I hadn't thought about using a reward system, Beckee, and it's something we've been successful with in the past, so it may be worth considering. Music would be a major distraction for her, unfortunately, and making her sit for a certain period of time..I'm not sure, could possibly cause a blow-up or perseveration (asking me 30 times afterwards why she had to sit when she was done), and I'm not sure the trade-off would be worth it emotionally- for either of us, lol! I will keep it in mind as something to try though. Thank you!

It's funny DeeDee, because if it were a science or english assignment, much less test, she would be extremely freaked about the grade, because she loves the subject. Math is just "eh" for her to begin with. She does use pencil & paper as she works on the computer. The last quiz, once again, she missed two, we looked at it, and she says (in less than 5 seconds) "Oh, I forgot to use the order of operations." It was the same mistake for both problems.

I try not to hover over her, simply because I'm trying hard to let go somewhat and make her take some responsibility for her work. Last yr word study was a major problem, I had to redirect every 5 minutes for her to stay on task, it wore both of us out, and I decided I was not doing it this year. It may be something I need to do on a short-term basis.

I think I'll discuss the scale with her teacher and see if she could use it when they review the math lessons, she's hyperaware of anything she perceives as criticism coming from me, or sensing disappointment. She may see it more objectively coming from someone else, then implementing it at home as well.

Thanks for the help!

I hear ya. We've had good success with a task board for DD8, and I'm only half joking when I say we need a homework board that includes the following steps:
READ THE INSTRUCTIONS
READ THE PROBLEM
SHOW YOUR WORK
THE BEATINGS WILL CONTINUE UNTIL MOM'S MORALE IMPROVES (OK, that one's the joke, but DD would be amused.)

Mine can clearly do the work, but she never reads instructions, often pays no attention to the signs, and would rather spend 5 times as long doing the work in her head than have anything but the answer appear near an "easy" problem. She loses a ton of points for careless errors, because of those things.

I'd rather she come to an appreciation of those things on her own, so I'm letting her do her own thing for the moment. (And I remember when I was her age I did at least that poorly on homework, and I turned out OK and always show my work now!) But I'd go with a reward / incentive system, because those work well for her, if I felt strongly about it.

sidenote-but have you tried Post It Notes on the papers? My DD doesn't like when we write on the homework itself to show her something, I think it offends her aesthetically, lol! Anyway, I have a lot of luck with Post Its, which she just seems to enjoy and you can move it around and you didn't actually write on the paper...

My son (9) rushes through his automated math tests and often makes careless errors as well...mostly because he refuses to do any work on paper. (He thinks it takes away the challenge for him.) Since I can't convince him to "show his work," I am working on convincing him to mentally check his math. He seems to like the idea of this "double challenge." -- My math teacher friends say that he needs to learn to show his work because it will be required later in high school, etc. However, I'm not that worried about it right now.

Oh, there's a thought! Thanks!

Wouldn't have helped her a bit on last Friday's math test, on which she got no credit for 3 of the problems because the instructions (which she didn't read) required that she show her work in a particular way. They're doing a whole unit on estimating using different techniques, and she has the "why bother estimating when it's just as easy to solve the problem" thing going on.

No winning with kids sometimes!

omg we are doing estimating too and get this, mine still counts on her fingers sometimes, but I can SEE her mentally add 2 2 digit numbers super easy...I can WATCH the process on her face and I'm sorry, but I am with the kids...why ESTIMATE why I can just SOLVE it? lol!!!

Honestly, sometimes I too wonder why does my child get a paper with 20 rounding or estimating exercises on it. And it's the same thing about showing the work or READING the instructions and understand like what "explain" the answer means vs "show your work"...bleh...

I remember my dad trying to teach me algebra when I was about DD's age. "Why would anyone write x there? It's obvious that it's really a 3 that belongs there!"

I kind of think it's a brain development thing, and that this, too, shall pass.

I'll confess to the same mindset even into college (and when it comes to dd and the whole AS thing, the apple not only did not fall far from the tree but may not even have fallen at all). I had learned to do a certain kind of math problem one way, and in my clinicals, was learning to do it a different way. Since my clinical instructor had written the text, she was very invested in us doing things her way-- and at the beginning of one test, leaned over my shoulder and said quietly "you may find that sometimes it's to your advantage to do things the way you're told, not the way you think is best." Uh...erk. Yeah. Stimulus for sudden epiphany, that.

Yeah, I said in one of the other threads that being able to do something stupid and pointless because someone in power wants you to do it is a useful life skill. It's also one I came to very late in life.

To break the habit of rushing and encourage the habit of attention to detail, sometimes it helps to break down the task (in this case taking the test) into small parts with a reward for completing each part, and to reduce the incentive to rush.

Say your child really wants a trip to a local amusement park. You can set up an incentive system just for taking these tests. First explain why developing the habit of accuracy and taking your time is important to you, and why you are willing to reward her efforts towards improving with a signifiant reward (the trip.)

Next lay out the subsets of the task. To reduce the rushing, ask that she stay seated looking at the test for at least 30 minutes (or whatever you think is long enough for the test) whether she is done or not.

So she can earn points towards tha amusement park trip each time she takes the tests. Score something like this:

Sitting in front of the test looking at it for 30 minutes 20 pts.
reading directions out loud 10 points.
double checking each answer another way 10 points
writing work down instead of doing it in your head 10 points

Earn 100 points and I'll take you to the amusement park!

I used this system this school year with my son for homework and what I have found is that having used it for over 30 days, he now has formed more of a careful homework habit and I don't even need to use the rewards so much any more.

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To follow up on HoneyBadger's point, I think a points system can be very valuable. The one tweak I would make would be to modify the recommendation for "30 minutes looking at the test". I suspect for a gifted child with issues of focus or careful attention, that could be counterproductive. I might instead take time to make sure the child knows how to reverse-check each type of problem that will be on the test, so that they can go from the answer they wrote down back to arrive at the original question, and practice that with them. Then offer whatever incentives seem to work for reverse-checking each answer on a practice test, so they spot the careless mistakes. For some kids, reverse-checking the problem is not a boring repetition of the calculation they already did once, but an "extra twist" on the problem that has some fun to it, and has the added advantage of letting them catch errors before they're graded.

My DS6 has a lot of resistance to doing things twice, including explaining something he knows the teacher or coach already knows the answer to. He sees it as arbitrary and repetitive (which is of course true), and has trouble accepting that this is the only way that other people can verify his understanding. An approach that doesn't involve him having to repeat himself is almost always the best option if we want him to cooperate at this stage.

I have read your description of your daughter in this, and other posts and nodded my head. My highly verbal daughter sounds a lot like your daughter in many ways.

DD15 is inconsistent in math. She can get all the homework 100%, and get a D on the test, all because of "silly" errors. This has actually gotten worse as the math has gotten more complicated over the years. I am in the process of really trying to figure this out, but our working hypothesis is weak working memory (maybe compounded by ADD) and just enough test anxiety that her WM starts to shrink. She came up with the idea of covering up all the questions with blank paper except for the one she's working on. I think it keeps her from getting distracted/overwhelmed.

ps -- dd is the most buoyant, happy child. I would never have guessed that she was anxious about anything, until she told me how she "self-talks" during math tests. Yikes.