Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Convincing 2e DD8 to "play the game" of school

Hi everyone,

I'm sure this is something everyone faces with a gifted child who has ADHD. My DD8 is HG/PG. She knows it. Her giftedness generally overrides the ADHD, especially at school. But, she's showing signs of being "done" with school. This is NOT a year I can start homeschooling her. She has informed us that she wants to skip a grade. She's been placed in a 3rd/4th split classroom, which was my request because it will probably be painfully obvious by about week 2 that she knows all the 4th grade curriculum, too. What the school will do about this I don't know, but it's a start.

But, here's the sticky wicket: she struggles with doing the uninteresting basics. We're trying to help her understand that at least in this school setting, teachers will be watching to see what she knows starting from the ground up. Just because she knows conic sections, she still has to produce addition facts quickly. I think this carries over all math settings, where the three big ideas are fast, flexible, and accurate (Sorry - I'm a former teacher!). I can't disagree with the typical school system expectations but I know that if she dawdles and fusses about this, she's going to get overlooked as a gifted child ready to move on to more complex math.

Does anyone have advice on how to talk to a child about how she might consider playing the teachers' "games" so she can get what she wants out of the situation?

Anyone with 2e kids see something I'm missing? Is this a case where the ADHD and the giftedness are fighting it out? I don't want her to skip these basic foundational concepts, but when she has to think for a minute to remember what 5 plus 7 is sometimes, I'm concerned...

Thanks,

JennyM

ADHD is typically most problematic in areas where you have to force yourself to pay attention to a routine or boring task - the sort of situation where your attention isn't being engaged or reinforced, and you have to actively force it. The deficit in attention is primarily in the ability to maintain it when it isn't easy. Many, many people with ADHD also have slow processing speed, which interferes with the ability to retrieve information from memory quickly and accurately. So telling your ADHD child that she will have to perform well on timed, rote, boring tasks (the same tasks that it is most difficult to pay attention on and that make the greatest demands on processing speed) in order advance to more appropriate work is somewhat akin to telling a colorblind kid that as soon as he demonstrates that he knows his colors, he can move ahead with more advanced work. If your daughter could do it consistently and reliably, she would.

If the ADHD interferes with classroom performance on these sorts of tasks, your child should have an IEP or 504 plan that addresses the disability and provides for accommodations. Access to gifted programs for children who would otherwise qualify cannot legally be denied on the basis of a disability, including ADHD or an LD.

Thanks, Aculady. I agree completely. Which is why I wish I could homeschool her this year.

I understand that she understands what she needs to know, but I'm afraid that we're going to have an uphill battle with this school district about what services she can get. Other parents have taken their children out because the district refused to believe kids could be gifted and need and IEP.

I'm a former ex ed teacher, and I know that in theory all of this is legally wrong on the part of the school districts, but even with outside evaluations I am not sure I can prove it. She's the kind of kid whose ADHD is not easily seen because her giftedness allows her to already perform better than her peers do, but she's frustrated because she can perform even better than that!

Do kids with ADHD who are already performing above grade level and above their peers get IEPs for slow processing? I can't find a good psych here in our small college town and while I am planning to travel to get her tested, I'm not sure if what I'm fighting for is worth it.

Grrr.... I wish this was easier.

JennyM

I think that a piece here that you might be missing is that the task avoidance that you described in your OP as not being willing to "play the game" may be serving a vital function for her. Many people with ADHD resist these sorts of rote tasks once they realize how difficult they are for them because there is no correlation between their effort and their outcomes, and it is psychologically much safer to refuse to do it than to try hard and still fail, particularly when all the people around you, many of whom you may otherwise see as not-quite-as-smart as you are, can do them easily. It can be very threatening to self-concept and confidence, and the fact that many teachers put great emphasis on fluency and speed only makes it worse. "How can I be smart when I can't do what these not-so-bright kids can?" If you refuse to try, you can always tell yourself that you could have done it, you just decided not to.

From my perspective, it would be worth fighting to get accommodations. You may also want to look into getting an advocate to deal with the school system on your behalf. We chose to homeschool rather than go to court, but if homeschool really isn't an option, start building your paper trail now so hopefully you won't have to do either and will get an appropriate education for your child.

Here are some links and resources that you might want to check out:

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/2e.index.htm

http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/2e.gifted.adhd.pdf

http://www.amazon.com/Different-Min...ome/dp/1853029645/ref=cm_cr_dp_orig_subj

The whole Wrightslaw site is a gold mine of special education law information, and will be a great help as you move down the road.

I have a DS8 who, like your daughter, loves learning new math and resists memorizing facts. His 2e-ness is autism, not ADHD, but some things are similar.

What we did for facts was make them a game. There is no way he would sit and memorize them like I remember doing as a kid with flash cards. We sing them in silly rhythms adding in "oh yeah, oh yeah" as we are doing other things like walking the dog or driving.

There are also computer games that give you cheers, prizes, or badges when you get a certain number of facts correct in a row. For example: EPGY has a little car race before every session that you can do over and over and Khan Academy gives you badges as you progress (but I'm not sure if you can do it over and over though). I've found other math fact games online that are similar...if your kid likes computer games, she will think they are fun instead of work. The main point is that repetition (as you know as a teacher) is the only way to get these facts to sink in with most kids.

Once they sink in, then hopefully she will be a little more content to "play the game" at school with their tests on facts. I know for my son, once he got it, he got it (you know, the gifted thing!) and he is now proud he can do 100 facts in 3 minutes instead of being frustrated that he only got 40 done in 5 minutes.

No amount of trying to convince him to "memorize them" worked for him. I had to make it a game and let that take over.

I have heard other people say that when their kids got to higher level math, they learned their facts at that time because they HAD to in order to do the rest of the math. So that's another option...?

As for adding something like that into your IEP, I don't know. DS has quite the extensive IEP, but I think putting something about math facts in there wouldn't fly.

Kate

Putting things in about not having to learn math facts wouldn't fly, but putting things in about not using timed fluency tests as assessments should.

Thanks Kate and Aculady!

Kate, I think you're spot on about the games and the higher level math. I also study motivation and self-determination theory (working on PhD - that's why I can't homeschool now) and you'd think I'd be better at using my bag of tricks on my own kid! Alas.

Anyway, she does like to play games more than she likes to just memorize. When you said that, I remembered that she asked to play Shut the Box this week - a game where you mix up equations to flip the numbers 1-12 over. I guess we need to find more games to increase autonomy and promote practice that she doesn't see as practice!

She does do Khan Academy. Right now, she's up to adding decimals, and like you also said, the higher math encourages her to use what she knows. Last night, she was using a variety of strategies that she could tell me about out loud, and her math facts were much better.

Since IEPs require significant classroom impairment, my DD is never going to get one of those. I understand that this district is in some legal situation regarding special education. Other families have been denied 504 plans for ADHD kids who are way more impulsive than mine, and less academically talented than she is also. Other parent is a professional in the education arena and they used a parent advocate. Got nothing. So, as you can imagine I don't have my hopes up.

And, aculady, good point. I'll keep an eye out for concerns about timed tests. I used to put test taking accommodations in IEPs all the time! Hypothetically, we're in the situation now, though, where DD is done first, and gets 85-90% right where if she had taken her time she could have gotten 100 percent right. Other kids go a little more slowly and get 98% right. But, again, I figure that we're not going to get help at school outside of an understanding teacher (I hope!!) so I hope that using games as a strategy helps her with her fluency.

Bottom line, I am sick of the game playing, too. School starts next Wednesday. I'm hoping for the best, but my expectations are pretty low.

Aculady, you are totally right! I forgot about the ability of IEP to waive time limits for certain things, duh! Thanks, Kate

I'm so sorry you are in such a position with a district that is violating the law like this. The commentary on the regulations implementing both IDEA 2004 and the Section 504incorporation of the ADA Amendments Act makes it explicit that there are three ways to determine that an impairment interferes with achievement: comparison to age-peers, comparison to state achievement benchmarks, and comparison to the child's intellectual development (IQ). It is sad and illegal that so many school districts are only permitting use of the first two.

Since you don't believe that a 504 will be forthcoming no matter what you do, perhaps either talking to DDs teacher about the ADHD or telling her that you are concerned that DD needs to learn to be more "careful" in her work and asking that she help you help your DD develop "good careful work habits" by emphasizing accuracy over speed in her instructions, or explicitly reminding students to re-check their answers before turning in the tests when giving such assessments would be helpful (not only to your DD, but to some other kids in the class, I'm willing to bet.) It might provide a cue that will remind your DD to allow herself to take the time to retrieve the facts, reduce her anxiety over (or focus on) the timed component, and help her catch ADHD-related errors or omissions. It is one of the supports that you might have wanted to be in an IEP or 504 for her, anyway.

DD8 (MG, 2E, processing speed issues and motor incoordination) is in a 1 yr accelerated program at a gifted school, it's the right fit for her and she is doing well but she too has difficulty with the basic stuff. I worked with the school and they put a 504 program in place for her so she can have 50% extra time on calculations and writing. That has helped. What helped set that up was her teacher last year was able to show that she performed "at or above" the class average when given more time. So if your DD needs some extra time, maybe that would help protect her.Maybe you can add that to the IEP if they do timed assessments?

do you have a citation for this? I'm curious because our state's RTI implementation document explicitly excludes the use of a discrepancy model (i.e. a discrepancy between IQ and achievement). In this respect, RTI seems to have made things worse for 2e kids in our state.

The RTI process should be used only for determining whether a child has a specific learning disability and is different than the determination of whether another diagnosed impairment such as autism or ADHD adversely affects educational achievement. ADHD is NOT a specific learning disability, but is clearly classed as an "other health impairment".

Since you brought up RTI, though, under 34 CFR 300.309, a discrepancy between ability and achievement is one of the three allowable ways to determine that a child has a Specific Learning Disability. IDEA 2004 did not say that states could not use this criterion, only that they could not make it a *required* criterion. States are responsible for developing their own criteria for identifying children as children with a disability, and many of them either did not include this method of determination, or else directly prohibit it.

You can read the preamble to the regulations implementing IDEA 2004 and analysis of comments and changes here. If there is a particular topic in IDEA you are interested in, such as identification of SLD or general eligibility criteria, simply scroll down to the relevant section number (note that there is often discussion of several different points concerning the same section, since the analysis and discussion is based on what sorts of comments were received regarding the regulations.) It's interesting reading.

***Update***

We've quit the game.

DD8 and I went to meet the teacher. Here's all the reasons we decided it was so horribly wrong it isn't worth bothering to go tomorrow for the real first day:

1. DD8 noticed that all the books in the 3rd/4th room were baby chapter books, and the bigger books were all ones she'd read before.

2. When we asked the teacher about it, she indicated that she rotates her books throughout the year, and these are her beginning of the year books. (Even DD8 knew that the teacher should be providing books that the students need and not just rotating the books on some pre-determined schedule.)

3. There were slightly larger chapter books, Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, and Mysterious Benedict Society, but she's read all those already. Years ago, in some cases.

4. The teacher did not use this as an opportunity to connect with DD8 and find out what books she likes, etc.

5. When I asked how they were going to split the kids, either based on grade or based on ability, she said they have to go by grade for the district. When I probed further and suggested we meet in the next couple of weeks to talk, she had the nerve to put me off and suggest that there is going to be a curriculum night coming up and that might make things clearer for me.

So, the teacher is going to provide books on a schedule, and stick like Velcro to the curriculum rules from the district. I re-reviewed the scope and the sequence of just the math curriculum for the 3rd and 4th grade and DD has mastered it all already.

So, the game is up. We've reached the final play. New game starts tomorrow. How am I going to do this? I don't know. But, I know in my heart that watching her spin her wheels and trying to lie to her and say it's all right is the wrong decision.

I know that this is wrong on their part, and normally I leave no windmills un-tilted, but I don't want to put my child front and center in my personal battle with the school district to get her something they don't want to give her.

Thanks for all of your advice! DD8 is really excited. Back to conic sections and large long division problems!

JennyM

I'm so sorry to hear that it was such a bad experience, but it sounds like you dodged a bullet.



We've been homeschooling since DS was 5, and I completely understand. I was only willing to make a nuisance of myself when the benefits greatly outweighed the risks, and I was sure that my DS would be protected from any repercussions. If there is anything I can do to help, feel free to drop me a PM.

I recognize that there are many different nuances to the way people use the term "Response to Intervention," but I just want to say that I do not agree that it should be used "only for determining whether a child has a specific learning disability." In fact, one of the primary uses of RtI is to deliver effective and timely interventions to prevent a child falling so far behind that they are ever considered for special education.

In my state, we have a model that is similar to RtI, but we call it comprehensive student support. The way that it's implemented, of course, is not nearly as comprehensive as I would like, but it's a good vision. The class I taught last year had a very low percentage of students in special education, and pretty good proficiency rates, but fully half of them had received some kind of intervention or action plan in elementary school.

Wow Wow Wow! I've found over and over that things that we 'absolutely can't do' we do when we can notice that we really really need to do them.

Best Wishes on the Homeschooling - hopefully she can work independently for a good chunk of the day! Glad that your home has 'beauty and order' all set so at least that is not an issue.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

@Jenny -- Good luck with your new game. I know that it must have required some personal sacrifice on your part.
@aculady thanks for the citation.

JennyM, it sounds like you made a courageous and good decision! How exciting to hear that your DD is excited about it! And I'm thinking, as hard as it might be -- at first, especially -- to adjust to being a PhD student and homeschooling, what a wonderful example you are setting for her. You are both working, side-by-side, on learning at your own pace and scope, and that sounds pretty great for her (and you) to experience.

Good luck with the new game!

Thank you all for the amazing support! This has been a real "jump and you'll find the net" experience. I contacted a friend who runs a wonderful daycare last night to see if she could keep my DD when I can't be with her and Dad's out of town. Not only did she say yes, but in another surprise decision, her high school son is also homeschooling this year, so she's completely on board with us.

Here we go!

JennyM

Beckee:
Absolutely - all children should be monitored for educational problems and have appropriate intervention provided as needed, without waiting for them to fail. That is the spirit of RTI. My point was that provision of special education services, accommodations, modifications, and supports for children with disabilities that affect educational functioning other than suspected specific learning disabilities should not be denied or delayed because the child has not completed a phase two RTI process. The RTI process is not part of determining whether a child has an impairment in any of the other disability categories, but many LEAs are trying to use RTI in this way. RTI is, rightly, part of the process for determining whether a child has a specific learning disability - in this case, it allows you to at least begin to answer the question "Is the problem in performance a problem with learning or a problem with the prior teaching?"