Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Child rejecting the dx

I'm trying to figure out how hard to push with my dd10. She has 99.9th percentile WISC scores (GAI) with 99th+ VCI and PRI and avg WMI and PSI. Her achievement in school has been wildly erratic. We haven't been able to homeschool as we did with dd12 earlier due to financial need for me to work more outside of the home and other issues.

She was dx with ADD and an anxiety disorder last year and we really had tremendous success with alternative treatments including omega 3 supplementation, gum chewing in school, and caffeinating the kid by putting caffeinated tea in her water bottle. Her grades got more consistent in the accelerated classes. The GT teacher e-mailed me to ask what I had done to her after a few weeks or so of this regimen. She gets straight As even with a total lack of attention in the less accelerated classes, but we need to do something to get that kind of performance in GT or subject accelerated classes.

I've also suspected off and on since 1st or 2nd grade that she may be dyslexic. Since she reads above grade level, that isn't something that the school would be concerned with and I don't know what to do. I do know that she's not likely to ever be someone who reads for pleasure the way I do, though.

So, the issue is this: dd rejects both the gifted label and any type of LD. Getting her to chew gum and drink caffeinated drinks during school will be easy b/c they are fun, but she's fighting me terribly on going back on the o-3s b/c she seems to see it as us saying that there is something wrong with her that needs medicating. We've just dropped it for the summer, but school starts up in less than two weeks and I think that it makes enough of a difference that I really want her to get back on them.

She is profoundly lonely when she's grouped with avg or high avg kids and, even in the GT placement, has rarely found anyone with whom she really clicks. She's a chameleon so she "fits" with everyone, but she's lonely none the less. If we do nothing, I suspect that she'll wind up tracked in the avg or high avg classes.

She passed the tests to accelerate in math next year, but she has to keep some focus so she does well enough that she doesn't get moved. Tons of simple errors, drifting attention... it all plays into lower grades and she won't stay in these classes if that happens.

Any chance that other people in the family might take omega 3s as well and just make it part of the breakfast or dinner routine for everyone. They are really a deficient part of the American diet for most people and there are good health reasons for lots of people to consider them (reducing inflammation, promoting cardiac health, etc.)

We certainly could. I'm not sure if it would make a difference but we could give it a try. I've also asked dh to talk with her b/c he, too, has an ADD dx and I'm trying to avoid having her come out of her childhood with the same issues he had/has. He may be less threatening to her, though, since she won't feel like it is the perfect person telling her what is wrong with her.

Did she skip a whole grade or more? Maybe you are just seeing that as the child goes through school, the demands on focus and "producing" work increase. It could simply be that she is average for her age in that area and will catch up as she gets older. The same is true for the social part- can you try things where she would be with girls her own age? Girls Scouts, musicals, gymnastics, etc?

No, she hasn't skipped any grades. She was kind of an early admit b/c Colorado has a "local education authority" system where every district can set its own cut-off date for starting K and they vary a lot. The latest date in the state is 5 by Oct. 1. We have three local districts and we are on the border of two of them. The various K cuts in these districts are "5 by 9/15, 5 by 8/15, and 5 by 10/1."

The 10/1 district had a 9/15 policy until the year dd10 started and changed it that year. Her bd is right before 10/1, so we started her there and then moved the following year to the 9/15 district. She is, thus, the youngest in her grade. Sometimes it is by a lot (as compared to kids who were redshirted and are 18-20 months older than she) and sometimes by a very little for kids whose bds were on the cusp and who weren't redshirted (1-3 months).

She tends to zone out when placed in situations with kids her age and a bit younger. She's done theatre programs for a while and just doesn't show up mentally if the other kids are acting like typical younger kids -- goofing off, etc. Point being, it doesn't seem to be a better fit.

We've been through a lot of trying to figure stuff out with her. She has a number of things that are a lot like dh and I have no doubt that he had undiagnosed LDs as a kid and he has been dx with ADD. I am pretty certain that her issues aren't developmental and likely to improve solely through aging. They do seem to improve with interventions, though. It is just a matter of getting her to accept the interventions and not view them as proof that she is defective.

Sorry to repeat post! I did want to say, though, that this hasn't been something that's come up in relation to getting further into school. We've had issues since 1st grade. Her test scores bounce all over the place, she drifts mentally and zones out, she misses questions due to very divergent approaches to things and regular simple errors. K wasn't an issue b/c she went in reading, writing, counting, tying her shoes, and really already at end of year goals so it didn't matter if she wasn't paying attention. Singing and playing games worked fine & she didn't need to do much output-wise.

Speed is also not an issue. She's actually very fast despite lower PSI scores on the WISC. I suspect that the PSI was largely impacted by mistakes moreso than working slowly. She completes work quickly; she just makes a lot of careless errors.

I find that my feelings of being defective with regard to brain or body (and not wanting to be "medicating" myself) can sometimes be alleviated by taking a biological perspective as in, not all bodies work exactly the same, not all bodies even work well, each individual is different, etc. And from there, to take the view of helping your body work better - If you could greatly improve your health by ingesting a chemical that your thyroid doesn't make anymore, wouldn't that be a great idea? If your brain doesn't make enough of the chemicals you need to be on an even keel psychologically, wouldn't it be great if there were a medicine you could take to help your brain out? That sort of thing. I find this helpful, but I expect it won't work for everyone. And I keep thinking of other examples, but I'm sure you get the idea!

Cricket, does she know that she is working harder than others do at things like reading, and if so, what explanation does she make for herself? Does she see that she's struggling, or not?

If she doesn't see it, then it makes sense she wouldn't want a dx; it's an explanation where no question was asked. She's also at a tough age-- nobody wants to be different at 12 or 13.

When she gets a so-so grade in the GT class, does she chalk it up to not being GT? I can certainly understand why this is a concern.

Having your DH do the talking sounds like a good idea. You could also level with her about what her test scores are and what they mean; if you think she's prepared for that kind of reasoning.

For my DS (younger than your DD) finding out his dx was important for his self-esteem and self-awareness-- it gave him an explanation other than "I'm not good enough to succeed." I hope your DD ultimately gets to that place too.

DeeDee

When my DS was diagnosed with ADHD-I, we told him that he had an amazing ability to notice everything around him, and that this ability comes in really handy in a lot of situations and a lot of careers and in life in general. But we told him that it doesn't always work so well for school because teachers only want you to pay attention to what they are saying or showing and not to the other 10 cool things going on in the classroom. So, while his ability to notice things was amazing and great, we needed to help him focus on just the one thing at a time in class. This way, we said that there was nothing wrong with him, just something challenging about a particular situation - school. Do you think something like that might help your DD?

It sounds like most of the interventions that you have been using are dietary, and that they are effective when she complies. You might try using an analogy that different people require different fuel to perform at their best, just as different vehicles require different fuels. You can't use the same fuel in a garbage truck that you use in a race car, but that doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with either of them, just that they won't perform at their best when they have the wrong fuel. She happens to have a brain that runs its best on racing fuel.

That's a challenge b/c she probably doesn't feel like she's working harder than the avg person but she does feel like she's working harder than the average gifted person. It is coupled with having a HG+ older sister who is grade accelerated and simply doesn't have to work hard at all at the things that dd10 struggles with.

She, like you mentioned, seems to be chalking it up to being not gifted b/c she isn't like the gifted people she knows -- me, dd12, other family members, a few other kids from school. What I worry, and see somewhat, is that she'll come to the same conclusion her dad has: that she is stupid. Dh constantly says things like, "why am I so *#%*#@! stupid?!" His self image sucks, he's terribly pessimistic and generally unpleasant to be around not infrequently.

We have and she has bought the line that she was fed by her 3rd grade teacher over and over that she is just a good guesser. She thinks that I am lying to her or being an elitist jerk who thinks that my kids are smart even if it isn't true.

She is rejecting both the ADD dx and the gifted label. She thinks that both are baloney. The problem with that is that she doesn't fit happily with average people either. She seems to be going the route of thinking that she is average but that there is also just something wrong with her b/c she doesn't fit with anyone. I really wish that I had other HG 2e people for her to know other than her dad, who isn't a good role model for dealing with that, and one other child who has totally different exceptionalities and who she would never want to ally herself with in her mind b/c he is very socially awkward whereas dd is a social butterfly -- a lonely in a crowd social butterfly, but one who knows how to work the crowd and is horrified by behaving in a manner that makes one stand out.

Just to clarify, she's not quite 11 yet. She'll be 11 in a little under two months. She's been a bit of a teenager in terms of what a challenge she is for some time though!

Oh Cricket
That just makes my heart hurt. ((hugs))
I wish I had some concrete advice, I have some understanding of being 2e and HG, and vividly remember not doing well at times and not be able to explain it and being overwhelmed with everyone's disappointment including my own. And the comparisons to a sib! But I can't say what would have helped me change my attitudes, beyond more support and understanding from my parents and you are already there

DeHe

I wanted to help, so I just looked in my bookshelf because I didn't know what to say.
How would she honestly describe herself in positive terms? �(an excersize in I found in a book)
Figure that out and reinforce that perception.
Build on success. �Support and reward small steps and progress. �Catch the child doing something right-frequently. �The frequency of re-enforcement is important. �In this case you're reinforcing the positive way you think she would see herself.
Can she distinguish between liking and being friends with someone?
(from the same book)

I don't have anything to add other than what DeHe said. And that I fear we will be facing similar issues with my eldest. Though she's not likely HG.

Cricket, feeling your pain here.

If you wanted to go this route (and if she were willing)-- either finding a cognitive-behavior therapist, or using CBT strategies with her, might be a good bet. CBT is all about changing thought patterns: if a person is thinking about something in an unproductive way, they can learn to re-frame it. It can help people see and accept "what is" and work optimistically with the limitations they're given.

But if she's heavily resisting you on this topic, you might not be the one who should work on it. Your DH perhaps could, though it sounds like he might need to work on his own reframing first and then teach her how?

Edited to add: a simple example of this sort of thing was used in teaching my DS about his dx: the guideline "it's not your fault, it's your challenge." Means you can't slap your head and call yourself stupid, you see about fixing what you can fix about your work. Of course, it takes some retraining to remember to apply this kind of thinking, and that's where the professional help is handy.

This is such a big job-- you have my sympathy.

DeeDee

My DS is a lot younger, but we have this fight with the O-3's too. He doesn't have an official dx, but responds favorably to the O-3's.


I would approach it from a health stand point. O-3's are good for everyone, I myself take them, on the suggestion of DS's psych, he said it would refill my brain of all the O3's I lost gestating and nursing twins.

anyways, I havent yet parented an older child yet, so I'm not sure that would even work, just thought I would throw it out there.

Could you also make a case that its better than taking an ADHD rx? (I'm not against ADHD medications at all, just in favor of trying other things first.)

Has she read anything about 2e? I wonder if presenting her with evidence that others go through this too would help?

Like I said, I only have a 5 year old, I dont pretend to know anything about parenting a "tween." (I hate that word. Anyone else? LOL)

Thanks for the continuing suggestions. I'll give them a try and see if we have any luck. I'm also not sure that I'm innately opposed to rx ADD meds either, we just tried other things first and they seemed to work. The main reason we didn't go with the rx version first was b/c dd also has anxiety and they can increase that and b/c she is extremely small and doesn't have the best appetite and stimulants can reduce appetite.

I know that you have said your husband has similar challenges. Do you have any other extended family who have similar issues and may be further along the path? My DD9 takes some comfort that she is from a family of gifted dyslexics -- my husband, her grandmother, a cousin, a great uncle. I think that talking to adults who have been through the experience make her feel like she is not the oddball. Sometimes they can talk to her about things that may be helpful, i.e. learning to keyboard this summer, in a way that I just can't. Coming from me it just doesn't have the same legitimacy. If you don't have any family members, is there anyone else that you know who could act as a mentor?

Ofen we say here - if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck - it's a duck!

But what if that duck throws up from eating grass roots that all the other ducks eat? Will that duck feel like a duck? Probably not.

Gifties are supposed to 'eat' learning, and your younger dd probably does 'eat' some kinds of learning, but reacts poorly to other kinds of learning food. It's enought to make a duck feel 'unduckly.'


It's my understanding that a 'tiny' amount of stimulents will - in general - cause less anxiety than enough caffeene to get the job done. Of course 'in general' doesn't say anything about any individual person.



As you can see, self-image can take a real beating from
a) not feeling like her brain is working right (it isn't) and
b) not finding a 'life's purpose' that can take advantage of this challenge.

Those two together can be very hard on people.

It's hard to know how agressively to persue chemical help, but if the teachers are happy and she still doesn't feel 'whole' inside, I would say that the current combination isn't working.

When I listen to folks who really like their stimulent medications, it reminds me of people talking about gender reassignment surgery - that without their medication they feel trapped in a body that is foreign.

I hate to be saying all this, because I hope that in 20 years there are better medications and techniques that make the current ones look 'barbaric' and we'll all sit around wondering how we could have done that. But for now - even with the misery of the medication merry-go-round - I think it's time to give serious consideration to medication.

Is DH fully diagnosed and medicated? If not, I think that whatever steps he takes to help himself will also help his family. Not your job to tell him, but you have my permission to drag him over the the computer monitor and let me tell him. ((wink))

Part of the problem is that the school isn't supporting your view that DDyounger is gifted. So the more other adults that you can get around your DD who do see her as gifted, the easier it will be. If your DH can be part of that team, so much the better. I'm hoping that next year's teacher get's 2E in her bones and will be a great help.

I used to ask for subject accelerations for DS from the point of view of 'well, he makes stupid mistakes with age-level material and isn't learning, why not let him make the same number of mistakes at plus-age-level and learn something?' The school never bought that argument, but I tried.

One of the great frustrations of ADHD is that even though the afflicted person might 'know what to do' they may not be able to apply that knowledge at the right time in a workable way. ADHD is a problem of output. This tends to make the person with ADHD insecure about their intelligence: "Why does eveyone always try and teach me what I already know? They must think I'm stupid, because they are always explaining the easy to understand stuff of life." Some kids think that if they have ADHD it means that they are like the intellectually challenged kids, or that if people know that they have ADHD that people will assume that they are like the intellecutally challenged kids.

Hope this helps - wish I could organize it better.

((hugs))
Grinity

There are non-stimulant options that don't have the anxiety/appetite side effects. This has been very helpful with my DS. If you are willing to consider meds, this is a possible route...

DeeDee

Oh, Cricket! So frustrating for her and for you!!

You have pretty much described my DD8 (almost 9!) perfectly. She is HG+, ADHD, anxiety and most likely, dyslexic. She is being assessed next month to rule in the dyslexia. Most of the time, she is pretty plucky about her challenges. She chalks a lot of things up to having a 'unique' brain. But when she gets down on herself, watch out! It is so hard to watch as a parent.

Does she have anyone to talk with? Any other kids her age that have similar struggles? I know my DD recently found an article in a magazine about a girl her age with ADHD who found out she was gifted. She read the article with her mouth hanging open and said that it was the first time anyone ever voiced how she felt on the inside. She has shown that article to every family member and all her friends. This has helped her understand that there are others like her out there in the big world. She still wishes she knew a few in person, though!

Maybe we need to organize an email therapy group for our kids, LOL. Although, no one would ever be able to read any of my DD's emails, God love the poor girl, her spelling, and lack of capitalization and punctuation!

Not really. Her GT classes have been filled with a lot of older high achievers who probably aren't gifted. About 20% of the school is in the GT classes and almost 50% of her middle school will be in the subject accelerated math next year if her class looks at all like prior classes. We live in an area with a lot of brighter than average kids with, how to put this, pressured parenting styles that tends toward many of these bright-avg kids being in GT. I don't know of anyone else with IQ #s like dd's, though, and there was only one kid in her class last year who was probably HG, but this child won't be @ school w/ her next year and isn't 2e.

I do know one other 2e child her age, but the child has an ASD and dd really doesn't see herself as similar and probably isn't.

You don't have an electronic copy of that article do you? I'd love to see it and see if it might be good for dd to read.

Cricket are you in the pikes peak region? There seems to be a gifted charter school in distric #11 that also supports 2E.

Academy for Advanced & Creative Learning
Investigate & Reflect, Explore & Lead
Guiding Gifted Students in the Pikes Peak Region

http://www.academyacl.org/site/about/faq1.html

The rest of the district seems to support gifted ed as well.

Have you heard of this district?

On their site I think it states that the school was established by parents and teachers to support gifted and 2E so you might be able to contact people there who could help you in your area of CO if you do not live in Colorado Springs.

My ds10 is somewhat bright (you can read my two first posts for background) and has issues that we are trying to figure out. I feel, as you do, that some of his problems could be helped by finding similar kids. I think that your quest to find similar kids seems to me a good idea. A short story about this topic: we all went out to eat this weekend dh, ds10 and ds7. We were seated by a mother with four kids. My ds and her ds10 started talking and talking. I could not hear everything but their words and topics were advanced. It was great seeing ds10 so engaged. I sensed the same with the mother so I asked her, "is your kid smart at school or really really interested in certain topics?" (to try to break the ice for further contact). And she said yes and she wanted to exchange numbers which we did. So it appears that many parents are looking for the same thing that you are.

I think it might be possible that people at the above school may know groups or contacts in your area.

Good luck

kathleen's mom Do you have the name or copy of the article it sounds helpful?

I was unable to find a link to the article online. Here is a link to the magazine, though.

https://secure.palmcoastd.com/pcd/document?ikey=10601ICE1

Discovery Girls Survival Guide Collector's Edition 2011

p. 90 - I Felt So Dumb!

thanks for the info

To answer a few questions,

We are about 3 hrs away from Colorado Springs so, unfortunately, their charter isn't an option, but thanks!

master of none, Actually, I do think that what you describe is pretty spot on for what's going on with dd. The psych who dx the ADD and anxiety disorder did write in her letter to the school that a 504 would make sense. The principal was unwilling and I didn't push it b/c I really don't think that the types of accommodations they could make, like extra time, would help her.

The GT coordinator tried some of those things last year informally before we tried any of our interventions and they really didn't make a difference. The thing w/ extra time is that dd tends to finish in plenty of time and has a hard time focusing for a long enough time to go back and review her work and find her errors.

Thanks, I just ordered a copy of it online. I'll let you know what she thinks. I may have to just give her the magazine and tell her that I thought she'd like it w/out pointing out that I want her to read the article on the girl w/ ADD. Magazines are one thing that she will sometimes read so I can hope that she'll stumble across it on her own. If not, I'll be more direct.

I agree. Omega 3's have helped my restless leg syndrome. It must do something for nerves?

Consider giving her something like this product from Swanson. Maybe in a smoothie?

I'm actually vegan and have been for 23 yrs. The kids are both strict vegetarians and have been their entire lives. Neither dd12 nor I have any ADD or other issues lest anyone attribute dd10's ADD to our diet (sorry, I've just been on other boards where our diets are not well accepted).

In any case, it limits our omega-3 supplement options to EPA derived from flax, hemp, walnuts, etc. or algae based DHA. Dd12 has tree nut allergies, so walnuts are out. I do think that DHA is a better option so we've gone with the vegan algae based DHA pills. We did try popping them and putting them in juice. Apparently it tastes like crud, though. Dd nearly gagged .