Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Trying to sort it all out with my 2.5 yo

Hi, this is my first post here, so please be gentle with me. Forgive me if this topic has been covered. I have a DD6 who is in a Regional Gifted Center here in Chicago Public schools. She is very smart and was the classic early talker, was reading before we realized it, etc. Long story short, I didn't really understand she was gifted until she was almost through preschool...in fact there were things about her that made me wonder if she could be somewhere on the autism spectrum. I feel bad now about being so far off the mark.

Her brother, DS2 has just gone through an evaluation with EI here in Illinois. I don't have the write up yet, but the therapists want to put him in speech, physical, and occupational therapy because of our concerns about his speech. He pretty much doesn't put two words together (has a decent vocab), some echolalia, extremely emotional with severe tantrums, sometimes all day long (probably because he can't communicate), and very rigid in play routines.

HOWEVER...I waited so long to get him evaluated because of the things he CAN do. Since well before his 2nd birthday he has been obsessed with first, numbers, then shapes, colors, and letters and has been able to correctly identify many of them for a long time now. He can count well into his 30's, backwards and forwards, and can identify numbers at least 1-20, maybe more, out of sequence. Can identify upper and lower case letters as well as say the sound they make. Can write most upper case letters (completely self taught) and some lower case and tell you what he just wrote. Can draw many simple shapes (including a happy face with eyes, nose, mouth and ears) and correctly identify. He can start with any letter in the alphabet and go forwards and backwards sequentially. I have a hard time doing the alphabet backwards.

Anyway, I don't know what to make of this. I mean, he won't even ask for a cup of milk...just barks out milk at me and stares at me blankly when I try to model the correct way to ask for things. No pronouns, few verbs, few adjectives aside from colors.

Will someone please help me make sense of this? I am completely unprepared for this kind of situation. Is this some sort of obsession with symbols that just happens to make it seem like he's really bright yet language delayed? I'm ok with that, I get that having a gifted kid is not the slam dunk people think it is (DD can be an existential, argumentative Drama Queen PITA, haha). But am I wrong to be confused by this seemingly wildly conflicting set of skills my dear sweet little man has? I just look at him and want to help him unlock language so I can get to know him a little better instead of having to draw letters and shapes for him for hours and hours and be subject to tantrums if I stop or even slow down.

Help.

My son was diagnosed with autism at age 2.5. By the time he was 7 he was identified as profoundly gifted as well. But having the early dx and starting early speech, OT, and especially ABA helped him become communicative. My son knew numbers including zero and negatives so I didnt understand how he could be autistic, too. Just like your son, he knew colors (weird ones like maroon and magenta) but I couldnt get him to say "red." Lots of therapy helped him speak and communicate instead of scream and grunt so that now he is thriving!

The therapy wont hurt and you will be so happy to hear him talk! I used to dream about my son talking to me when he was minimally verbal, and now he is a complete chatterbox!

Kate

For a while, I thought our son had something called, "Auditory Processing Disorder". (He has had auditory sensitivity; though now very much diminished; and seemed not to listen.)

Check into it to see if any of the symptoms "ring a bell". It could be the source of his tantrums.

DS8 didn't talk for conversation purposes until after he was 2, but he was reading by then, and he knew all the numbers anybody could ever want as well (he loved Who Wants to be a Millionaire and knew all the $ amounts, knew when something was money or just decimals, fractions and all that). We knew from 1 to 1 1/2 that he was very gifted, but it wasn't until he was 6 that he was diagnosed with Asperger's. We had suspicions from 4ish, but resisted it.

He did some of what I guess is echolalia, at least he would repeat things back to you, whole sentences usually (really interesting because he could repeat a sentence back without the words that he wasn't allowed to use). He had a ferocious temper, and would bang his head on things (floor, couch, walls) when things weren't going his way -- he still has a temper, but he's learning to handle it in more positive ways. Back then, it was easy to see that it was just because of the things he wanted to do but was not physically capable of doing yet, now it's frustration over being misunderstood by the other kids.

So basically, you're close to where we were six years ago! I would not hesitate to say your DS is gifted, and therefore frustrated, and it wouldn't surprise me if there was some degree of Asperger's as well. Or some of those other things. You're in the right place, here!

Don't be surprised if he gets interested in license plates -- they are numbers at a handy height for a 2.5 year old.

Oh wow you guys, thanks so much for your responses! I already feel better!

Kate, autism is not off the table with us, but he is a cuddly sweet boy when he is not tantrum-ing (and he's getting his way)...with eye contact, and pointing. I keep saying no, no he doesn't fit and then I start thinking...maybe. The therapists were clearly not going to make a call on any causes (they'd be crazy to on a preliminary evaluation). One did say that she was "happy to see him so affectionate." I assumed she was hinting that maybe autism wasn't a huge concern? Forgive me for not knowing the finer points of the disorder.

Ametrine, yes I think APD could be a possibility. His sister and I both have issues with this as well. I was trying to get his attention in the gym daycare the other day and he was staring fixedly over my shoulder at two women having a conversation...like they were shouting and that was all he could hear. I'll be sure to bring this up in therapy. Thanks.

Cricket3, road signs, haha, we are obsessed with octagons right now. They are kind of hard to draw (for me). Thanks for sharing your story. It helps so much!

Nautigal, DS's echolalia sounds like your son's...entire songs, everything an electronic game says, everything his talking stuffed dog says, entire TV shows. In sequence. I hear it from his crib and recognize the cadence and some of the sounds and words, but if I was hearing it for the first time, it would just sound like babble...since I've heard the toys and shows, I know he's repeating huge chunks back. LMAO on the license plates, I think the only reason he's not obsessing over those is that he's extremely brand conscious and is busy narrating what kind of car it is as we walk thru the parking lot. He likes to classify them by letters, my honda is H-car, a mercedes is Y car, etc.

I hadn't thought he was possibly an Asperger's guy, mainly because of the speech delay, but I'll keep it in mind going forward as well.

Again, thanks so much for the replies, it really means a lot!

Regards, Q

Like others have said it's certainly possible to have a 2E child, one that might have some delays/learn disability but is also gifted. Others have already addressed that well so I won't touch on this further.

However, I'm curious about your DD6, why did you think she might have autism initially? Are you certain she does not have Aspergers now? Like your son she could be 2E (and since you're seeing this in your son I thought it was important to ask), so it might at least be worth looking into. Feel free to ignore this if she isn't showing any symptoms but since you mentioned that I felt it was worth discussing.

Cricket3-stop sign cookies is killing me, your DS sounds hilarious.

Newmom21C-since she was my first kid, I had no frame of reference except in comparison to her peers. She just seemed different, and I think because it is in the news so much, autism was the first thing I thought of. She never played with toys the way they were "meant" to be played with, often stood off to the side or didn't want to be part of the group activities at parties, playgroups, etc. The lining up of things was insane...we'd have entire armies of plastic animals and figurines lined up in queues all over the house. We'd wait and sneak behind her back and change the order of two of them, or turn one the opposite way, and she'd see it immediately and rush over to put it back the way she had it. Just...strange. When she tested into the gifted center I spent a lot of time reading and ran across the concept of overexcitabilities which really seemed to explain her better than AS. I certainly would not rule out the possibility of some neurological difference beyond her giftedness, but nothing I can put my finger on.

After reading your post I went back and read over the signs/symptoms of AS...mostly not her, except I will say that I perceive a lack of empathy at times, perhaps because I struggled with that as a child as well. We work really hard on that!

Perhaps there are even shades of Asperger's? You could certainly armchair diagnose several folks on either side of our family with both giftedness (at least 3 of 4 grandparents) and suspicion of Aspergers, most notably my father and her cousin on my husband's side.

I had to grin when I read that!

Our son went through that lining up phase. His thing was letters. Three sets of those foam kind. He would line them up in order, but they absolutely had to be touching. I used to push two letters away from each other in the line when he was out of the room. Of course, he would see it and push them together again! LoL

Prior to that alphabet obsession, he had a toy with the colors of the rainbow as the background to pictures. The toy had nothing to do with rainbows, yet one day I found them lined up in the correct order of colors. That one happened when he was two. I remember taking a picture of it, I was so surprised.

There's a touch of Aspie tendencies in my family; but no diagnoses. So far, the doctors haven't felt DS has it, but because he is often crying through appointments, it's difficult to catch him being himself!

Well, it's certain a spectrum and if she were to be on it, it sounds like she'd be at the very high-functioning end. Although nothing you said (except the lack of empathy) could truly be explained by Aspergers and not giftedness. I'm certainly no expert and would never dream to Dx your DD over the internet but I figured it was worth mention in case an issue showed up later on.

Have you looked at a list specifically about aspergers and girls? Try googling sue larkey, she has a ten point list. I am on posting on my phone at 3 am so cant post a link easily.

The quote that amertrine made above is exactly my DD too. And she was a head banger as a toddler. She has great empathy but has trouble reading cues unless they are very overt so may not demonstrate her concern until someone else is crying - at which point she often bursts into tears. Her tone of voice is often inappropriate, she goes straight to snapping rudely at us, or makes sounds like she's laughing when she is crying and then asks why we didnt help her get her sister off her...We are waiting for an assessment in sept. I am sure she has ADHD I am not sure whether there is also some asd going on. She definitely has some traits but maybe not enough for a diagnosis.

You could almost be describing my DS8 when he was that age, although his language delay was mild to nonexistent. He is sociable (in that he likes people and is attached to us) and affectionate; yet his sociability is awkward, language skills always a shade behind his peers' despite early reading and writing, and he's highly prone to inflexibility and outbursts and very odd special interests that he perseverates on at great length.

The inflexibility is best addressed before they get to school age; following someone else's rules all day long is really, really hard for people with Asperger's/autism. (The distinction between the two is going away next year, so you probably shouldn't worry about the distinction at all at this point. It's all a spectrum.)

I'd highly recommend finding an autism clinic or specialist who has seen some gifted/autistic kids. Mine didn't get diagnosed until age 5 because, like yours, he could do so darned much intellectually, he was written off as just quirky. Earlier intervention would have been very helpful, but we couldn't access it without the diagnosis.

The tantrums if you stop his special interest are a key symptom: these guys get fixated, and feel they need access to their interest at all cost. It's how they learn, but also how they calm themselves-- and it can impede learning not on the special interest topic. You should consider not humoring this, weathering the tantrums, and start helping him to be more flexible. The book Parenting Your Asperger Child is good on this topic.

I also highly recommend ABA therapy if you can get it. It works on all these issues at once, which is often easier than seeing three or four different therapists to work on pieces of the problem.

There's a great parent forum on this website: http://www.aspergersyndrome.org/Home.aspx

Best wishes,
DeeDee

Your DD sounds very much like mine at that age, early and verbose talker, self taught reader by 2, sitting on the sidelines at pre-k making daisy chains while the other kids played wild running games with each-other, lining up her toys just so, lining up pebbles for hours during her sisters' swim lessons etc. She was also diagnosed gifted at 5 and we had many comments about how very gifted and ahead she was in every subject across the board. She seemed happy enough and she was popular in that other kids liked her (although she was mostly indifferent to them), she would interact and play with a couple friends here and there but she really didn't ever seek that out.

We didn't discover she had AS or ADD until she was 17 and severely depressed, without any friends, lonely and failing in school (despite extremely high test scores in all subjects). I dismissed AS for her at first too, based on the checklists but then I learned how girls present so differently.

I highly recommend becoming familiar with the checklist for girls and keeping an eye on your daughter. Girls typically are much better at masking their symptoms and they tend to obsess over things that are more under the radar like horses or reading or astronomy. I recommend the book "Aspergirls" by Rudy Simone, it was a real eye-opener for me. There is a checklist on her site but it's more for adult women, you may recognize the traits in family members:
http://www.help4aspergers.com/pb/wp_c412f5cb/wp_c412f5cb.html

I am not sure much would have changed for my DD at your DD's age with an early diagnosis, but it would have prevented a huge amount of stress and suffering for the whole family if we had known about it by middle school when the issues began causing problems.

Hi,

I see autism/asperger's discussed as a spectrum but it seems to me like it's several virtually independent spectrums of traits. They conspire though over time either in a positive or negative way... ie if you are too distracted by the wrinkles in your diaper or the repetitive motion of the fan to listen to the people around you then you don't work on social skills or language. If you have poor language skills you can't have a discussion about how it feels to have past TV shows on in your head all the time.

I found this online assessment tool when I was worried about DS (now 4) and found it helpful in that it broke things down into several groups of traits. http://www.childbrain.com/pddassess.html Be sure to click on each line for the explanation before choosing a number.

For DS, he had language delay and had a early intervention screening. They offered a couple different services and we accepted only the speech.

DS does not have natural social skills on the level of some of his agemates. If he scored the way he does in social skills in every category he'd cross the line and face some real difficulty. But in his other traits such as imaginary play he is way ahead of most his age, and his social skills aren't on their own bad enough to make life really hard.

At 16 months (when DS had the EI screening), and he clearly failed to show okay social interaction according to the test. One of the items on the list was "show turn taking by playing ball with examiner". Well, DS has never seen much point in balls, and there was also a roomfull of other toys there that he did have interest in, and we'd already been in the building about 20 minutes by the time they got to that part, and he was about done. So that failed him on turn taking. Add in poor eye contact (which he still has, but now only after the novelty of any situation wears off) and that gets one labelled with a social delay and offered services for it.

I remember going home from that assessment and having ice cream, 3 people eating out of one container, and DS easily pointing at each person in order of who's turn it would be next, waiting (only a very short time) for his turn without having a fit, and seeming to get some pleasure too from the mutual experience of taking turns and eating ice cream together. The ball game wasn't a fair test of his ability to follow social rules.

My own personal feeling at the time was that if he could just talk better everything else would be okay, and so far it has been. He's definitely quirky but not to the level the initial assessment would have suggested.

Be sure that you are getting services for issues that are real, and not accept services just because they are offered if it is for something you really feel will just be okay. The reason is the time commitment, there is so much else kids can do at that age and there can be disruption of their sleep or schedule in order to make it to appointments on time. There is also the risk, if they are a perfectionist and have good language comprehension, of them becoming worried about their own development. Don't think a 16 month old or 2 year old can't feel bad about themselves, no one criticized DSs speech and somehow he still was upset by it. Sometimes when we would happily praise him for getting out a word like, "bottle" (actually it sounded like ba) he would burst into tears -- it was all just not how he wanted it to be.

It seemed to help when I would lie and tell him that I had the exact same difficulty when I was his age, we had some one sided adult sounding "conversations" about this that did seem to help. One of his first real sentences around 2 was a pitifully sad sounding, "I can't say anything."

No one prepared me for that -- no one seems to think a barely verbal 18 month old or 2 year old can be self-aware to that point, but they can. No one warned me that they would be just as complex at that age as they are at an older age (for example at 3 if I said no we can't go to the park right now it could result in DS deciding that really he actually does not like the outdoors after all so that later when I say hey want to have a picnic the answer would be no, because he only likes the indoors). How am I supposed to know that is what the crying about the picnic means if there is barely any speech! I only know because there were occasions when we somehow managed to figure out his feelings and they were oddly complex for the age.

And no one let me know what to do when distraction did not work (bubbles, swings etc does not work if a child has an obsessive need for something they can not have, such as a repeat trip to the Museum of Natural History in another state because we missed one hall).

Complex and self-contradictory thoughts have to be communicated in order to have a parent help them through it. So if cognitive development and receptive language is much higher than expressive language I really do think that that alone can cause strings of horrible tantrum laden days. Not saying in your particular child that part is a result of poor communication, but based on my one experience with my own DS it's not out of the question.

Sorry that got long winded -- I have painful memories of a time when I did not know how I could make DS feel happy and just get us all through the day peacefully. For us the key was speech, but obviously that may just have been us. I hope this frustrating time in your lives is short.

Polly

Whoa, just did that and you're absolutely right, she fits much more closely when you look at a list of girl-specific traits. Certainly has given me a lot to think about.

Nik, your story about your DD was a real eye opener for me, especially because it not only warns of possible perils for my DD, but also reminds me of some stuff in my past. Hmm.

At any rate, thank you so much for alerting me, you may have saved my family a lot of heartache.

Reading through your original post was like reading something I would have written awhile back about my son (age 2). He has been diagnosed with Autism, Expressive Receptive Language Disorder,and Hyperlexia among a bunch of other things. I just want to encourage you as you start your journey into therapy. It's not an instant fix, but over time you will see results. Hang in there! It sounds like you have two fabulous and very smart kiddos!

Hi, I am the original poster from last summer and wanted to follow up with new information and a question for the brain trust here.

So DS has been in 3 hours of therapy a week since August and will age out of EI next month when he turns 3. He has been in speech, OT, and DT. He has been assessed by Speech and OT for an IEP and I am awaiting the final meeting with them next week (they declined to assess for any other domains).

I don't think his speech has really improved all that much...he is starting to say some multi word sentences and some little bit of original speech, but he is still nowhere near he needs to be. His frustration level has been growing because his communication needs are outpacing any gains he has made in his speech. In fact he has started biting other kids in conflict over toys, which in addition to causing injuries, has created even greater isolation for him and I (I can't take him to the gym daycare and as a SAHM have no other real options to get away for a little while...plus I am terrified of taking him to play places for fear of an incident). I also have a hard time doing even mundane errands because he has been so atrociously behaved lately. Ugh.

The OT thinks he is hyposensitive in several areas, but his fine motor skills are fine, even above average. The OT has mentioned that she thinks he has low muscle tone. I think he was assessed with a 60% speech delay and I wouldn't be surprised if it has not improved or even declined at this point.

Regardless of the school's services he can't start preschool until next August or September.

Since I wrote the original post he is now reading quite a bit...probably 30-40 words mostly by sight, but his word attack skills are pretty decent and has been able to sound out words as well. We also have discovered he has an amazing ability to do puzzles...both by shape recognition and pattern/color matching.

I resisted a medical eval, but in light of the growing frustration and the bizarre disconnect between "hyper visual" mind and his poor speech skills, I think we need further information. I am just wondering what my options are. I have read about some of you taking your children to a "neuropsych." Is this the customary place to start or are there different paths to diagnosing "exceptionalities."

Am I missing anything here. I have a call in to the Pediatrician and I expect her to suggest going to a developmental pediatrician, but are there any other avenues to pursue? Any other questions I should ask her?

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may have on the subject.

Regards,
Quincy

Hi Quincy, Welcome back. Sorry to hear that life is hard an isolated. Developmental Pediatrician sounds like a great place to start. How is your daughter doing?
Love and More Love,
Grinity

I have a young one that is hard to know what is going on. If I had all the money in the world and time I would take her to someone like the guy in Kentucky, Armand I think is his name..or maybe the Eides in Seattle. They have experience seeing both gifted and some of the other stuff. I do not have personal experience with them with my kids but from reading this board and books etc. I would want someone who knows both the gifted and the Autism or other 2E issues and had experience seeing them combined and in action. Good luck.

Flower, I live in Chicago, so usually medical care is pretty good...lots of excellent specialists at the teaching hospitals, etc. If anyone knows of anyone here, I'll take suggestions :-).

Grinity, thanks, good enough for me! I have been watching my daughter very closely and I think that any traits that could signal aspergers are truly a result of her giftedness. Of course I have diagnosed myself and several members of my family...but it's too late for any of us, bwhahaha. I will remain vigilant as she gets older in case something rears its head. If anything, she's a bit hypersensitive, but nothing some tag-cutting and noise-reducing can't fix for now!

Regards,
Quincy

And another update as this thread may be useful to someone else with a child like mine...whew...

When I last posted, we were high stress, DS was biting at the gym daycare, I was finalizing our first IEP as he was phasing out of EI and had a tough shoulder surgery right before Christmas...it's a wonder I didn't start biting people who pissed me off...

Anyway, the IEP team started him in PreK early which has been huge huge huge! It's only 2.5 hours a day but he loves it and is doing extremely well. He has stopped biting and is well behaved at school and even though we had a PT exemption, I did a boot camp the weekend after he started and that in concert with the other kids example has made him into a PT super star. I am so thrilled with all of his progress.

Right after the New Year I took him to the eye doctor because his sister needed to go and he had a strange occasional squint and lo and behold, he has accomodative esotropia which is a neurological eye condition where the brain allows the eye or eyes to cross to see things up close. If it is allowed to continue the child is at risk of losing his depth perception. Furthermore, the eye doctor says she sees this condition co-morbidly with ASD, which I find fascinating. He is wearing tiny little bifocals and with the exception of a streak of glasses throwing a few weeks ago, he has been amazingly compliant and his doctor is happy with his progress so far. Why this is important: A lot of his behaviors seem to be linked with his vision. He used to throw a tantrum every morning when I wouldn't carry him down the stairs (problem after shoulder surgery). He also didn't have a shared gaze or great eye contact (did some pointing but not a lot). Now he's much more normal in that department and his physical abilities seem to be catching up...he's a real dynamo at the playground, which makes me super happy.

At the same time we were getting the eye diagnosis, he had taught himself the shape and written name of all 50 states and started work on Europe and Africa. Also planets of the solar system and is full on reading...I started to do a daily schedule but instead of pictures, I just wrote words out and he would read and sequence the activities.

The behavior continued to be spotty though so I took him to a speech path here in Chicago, Phyllis Kupperman, who has written numerous papers on Hyperlexia and ASD and the connection between the two (or lack thereof). She assessed him to be reading at nearly a 2nd grade level. That paired with the speech capabilities around 2-2.5 places him squarely in the hyperlexic realm. She recommended a diagnosis of PDD-NOS but agrees that it is mild...i think it was a practical thing because what are you going to do with a hyperlexia diagnosis...for insurance purposes, it doesn't exist.

That same week I found out he was accepted into a public, full day Montessori program, which I think is the perfect solution for him, at least for now. The principal connected me with the family of another boy who has PDD-NOS and we ended up in his class (and he's getting a para this year which will help everyone). So I guess we are moving on to figuring out our next IEP revisions in light of the hyperlexia information and the context of a Montessori school.

He is so amazing and so confounding, and hopefully others will get some guidance from this post. I know I learned so many terms, including hyperlexia, from this post, and I am so grateful for the folks who shared their knowledge with me. If you compare my post from last summer to this one, I don't have all the answers but I am a hell of a lot more knowledgeable and my son is getting a ton more help, so, THANK YOU everyone! If anyone has any questions, I am more than happy to explain further...

Teasing out the whether traits are related to giftedness and/or something else can be very tricky, since giftedness by itself doesn't rule those other things out or in, and it can often be confused with them. I'd make sure that any professionals who evaluate your child are familiar with Misdiagnosis and Dual Diagnosis of Gifted Children and Adults .

Thank you for sharing. My DD also has an issue with her vision. She has a slight outward turn of her left eye when she gets tired, is sick, or when her eyes get fatigued. Your post has been the kick in the butt I needed to make an appt with a COVD optometrist to see how her eyes are working together when she reads.