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I'm starting to get more concerned about B (5yo in K) and school. He's had a rough time of it lately.

Last week, he got in a fist fight with another child -- and that's not like him at all. It was something to do with playing chase, and the other child did something that did not suit B, and B hauled off and smacked the kid in the face. He says he hit him four times, the teacher says two -- I trust B on this one. No one was hurt, but obviously this is completely unacceptable. He hasn't done anything like this in ages.

And yesterday, they were doing a cut-and-paste project that had to do with counting and cutting -- I don't know exactly what, it was a k project. B didn't finish in the time allotted, because he was talking. And then he didn't finish in the extra time he was given, because he was talking. And then he had to do it during Choice Time -- and he *still* didn't finish, because he was talking! He had to move his behavior marker from green to yellow.

Also yesterday, he told his teacher that he hadn't read the book he was supposed to -- but he HAD! I saw him reading it and asked him questions about it. And it's the book for his "advanced" group. How weird is that?

The other thing I'm seeing is that his handwriting is just *not* improving. He takes no care to space or size his letters and words right, half the letters are still backward, and though he does spell everything right, it takes some serious deciphering to read it.

He says he hates kindergarten and never wants to go.

I just have no idea what to do next. The principal, after a friendly reminder email last week, is supposed to be getting back to us about the IAS. But with his handwriting the way it is ... I doubt they'll accommodate his writing at all if we bump him to second grade in the fall, so he'd massively struggle there. So I don't even know if *that's* the right thing to do either.

Sorry for the whiney post ... I don't know what to do. HS is just not an option for us, financially and all sorts of other -lys. We hope to move in the fall, and I'm investigating other options ... I'm just so frustrated and sad for my little guy.

Thanks for letting me vent ... poor kid. And he's extra sad because we took away his World of Warcraft playing after his fight, deciding that even the fairly innocuous violence wasn't good for him. He *loves* playing that game, and he's a sadder boy without it.

Mia

Oh, Mia! I'm so, so sorry!

What are your options? Sticking with his class for 1st grade and grade-skipping to 2nd are the two obvious ones. Are there any other options, since these obvious options don't sound quite good enough on their faces.

How are the 1st and 2nd grade teachers? Is there a chance to place B with someone who gets him?

Can you work on the writing to get him up to snuff, or perhaps suggest that he type his work somehow? I hate to hear that handwriting is keeping a kid from getting what he needs. That's just so wrong, I think.

I'm sorry for B and for you! {{{Hugs}}}

We've been working on the writing, and honestly it actually seems to be getting worse! In his mind, he knows how to write, and he *doesn't* want to slow down to make it legible -- he doesn't care if anyone else can read it, as long as he can.

Ha, in December his father (who is a self-serving, self-righteous prick, to be honest) said that he'd have him writing well in two months. So much for that. Oooh, that guy ... anyway ...

And you're right -- it seems so wrong that he can't do what he *can* do because of the handwriting. And I know that will be a big barrier for him, especially at this school which isn't jumping to accommodate him anyway. I'm guessing it will be a big stumbling point. And besides -- then is second grade going to be too hard for him writing-wise? Would it even be good for him to skip if he's ready everywhere else, just not on the writing?

Honestly, I have no idea about the teachers. We don't really know anyone around here to ask, and I wouldn't even know who to start asking! Any ideas? Maybe I'll email the gifted teacher and see what she thinks (though, if you remember, the last I talked to her she hadn't even met the kid).

Options for next year are really limited. We're planning on moving in the fall, so another school is an option, but we're still trying to decide where. And even after we decide where, we have to convince ex-h that ds should go to the new school. Theoretically, if it's best for B, he'll be all for it. See above paragraph about ex-h, though ... So it's kind of a timing thing. The problem is that our current lease is up September 1, so it doesn't even make sense to start looking at houses until the spring. Since we live in a big city area, there are tons of options on where to move ... so many that I can't even start to narrow it down, really.

We're just kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place for now. It's so frustrating. Advice: Don't get divorced! Parenting would be much easier with only one set of decision-makers, especially with an outside-the-box kind of kid.

I think if I were you, I'd start narrowing the options for moving to a single school district (or maybe 2, if you're really ambitious). You don't need to find the house, but decide on an area. Then you can start researching schools now, while there's time to make decisions. The more you can do early, the better chance you have of finding something that will really work for B.

Are you going to buy or rent the next place? Do you have a real estate agent or rental agent yet? If not, I'd say get one and start asking questions about schools. I don't think they're allowed recommend anything specifically, but the one we had was very good at answering the question without saying any "wrong words." Be sure she knows about B's situation so that she doesn't just say, "Oh, yes, XYZ is a good school system." You need details about GT ed! That they are allowed to offer you.

Then you could put B in the new school starting at the beginning of the year and not even have to worry about the school he is at now.

Have you tried getting B to write a book for others to read? That helped my DS with his writing more than anything. If it's writing designed for others, he makes more of an effort. It may not work, but it's something else to try.

Some of it is just age. He's 5! 5yos don't write very well. There's not a lot that can be done about that. By next year, he may show vast improvement just by virtue of his aging a year. <shrug> I'd fight hard against keeping him in 1st if the only concern is his writing.

Have you gotten the IAS for him, to see if grade-skipping is recommended? I think it is, but it's worth having the test to get the official seal of approval...

I'm so sorry Mia--it's hard enough to deal with kid issues, much less unsupportive ex. The best thing you can do is do something to make yourself feel better (phone friend, get a Starbucks,?); then address B's issues (I only say this because I feel somewhat paralyzed when I'm feeling down).

I really don't think writing should hold your son back. First off, because he is young, his motor skills are not as advanced as his brain. Improvement WILL come with age and practice. Keep advocating for the skip (if you and B believe it's right). Work on writing this summer and keyboarding (Grinity had both a handwriting program suggestion and maybe a keyboarding one) in anticipation that he'll also physically mature/motor skills.

I am sorry, nothing personal but:

WORLD OF WARCRAFT FOR A 5 YEAR OLD!!!!!!

We're hoping to buy the next place. And that's kind of what I'm thinking -- narrow down the options, start shopping around, and find the best fit. And no, we don't have a real estate agent yet -- are they really helpful with school stuff? Being on the younger side, I just don't have a lot of life experience with this stuff yet.

And yes, he's only 5, but he's almost 6, and like I say -- it doesn't seem to be getting better after 6 months of school. I thought there'd be some improvement, but there really doesn't seem to be. On the bright side, he's getting faster at writing illegibly ...

And the IAS ... there's another thing that *really* irking me. I've had the manual for months and first requested that it be done back in December. Then in January we requested formally (in writing *and* in person) that it be done; the principal told us she needed to gather the materials, so she'd need a week or two. I emailed her last week to check up since it had been a while ... and was told that she needed to gather the materials, so she'd need a week or two -- and she'd contact ME when she had everything. Right. I'm calling early next week if I haven't heard from her.

When I fill in the IAS both as I would do it and as I think the school would do it, B is a "good" candidate. And ha -- it doesn't include handwriting. :P

Ania -- well, he uses a mage -- it's magic more than fighting. He loves it.

cym -- yep, looking into Handwriting Without Tears ... in fact, may order that today.

Ours was helpful, though we had no kids at the time, so we were just looking for a "good" school district. At least they can (subtly) direct you toward areas that are more likely to have what you need. Then if you can find a GT support group or even a PTA in the area, you can ask some more pointed questions to actual parents. Finding the right parents to ask is going to be the hard part, I'm afraid. Even regular GT families' answers might not help you, since their kids might fit better than B will. HG+ families don't wear signs, unfortunately.

And good for you for staying on the principal. Don't let her weasel out of it! Grrr...

Mia-

My now-adult son had TERRIBLE fine motor skills when he entered school. He was instantly put on an OT plan, and had PT as well. I really cannot imagine your son's writing being worse. My son was still advanced a grade for math and reading (yeah, big whoop for a PG kid, but we were so ignorant!) and he really did not have any trouble keeping up with the amount of writing needed in lower elementary. IF the school tries to make it an issue, ask them if an "age appropriate" first or second grader would be held back for poor handwriting. I'll bet not- they'd just do their best to accommodate and support.

Great point, Lorel!

Hi Mia,

Have you considered subject acceleration instead of full skip? He may be ready for 2nd grade in some subjects but not all? It sounds like school is getting too stressful for your kid. I wouldn't worry about his handwritting just yet. He is only five (almost six).

I don't know if this would make you feel better, but I will say it anyway. My dd started 1st grade at 6 yrs 5 months. She was reading at 4/5th grade level but the only thing she could write was her name. We never schooled (homeschool or otherwise)so she never tried. She is now in 2nd grade and her writing is beautiful. She is a great speller and is getting high marks on both presentation and content on book reports.

I guess my point is he may just not be ready for writing at 2nd grade level but he may be ready for math/reading. In a few more months this may not be a problem anymore. Let him take the lead.

I believe wholeheartedly in skips and subject acceleration, but only when the child is ready for it and it won't cause undue stress.

Hi Mia - I'm so sorry about your situation! I was just going to say, my DS in 1st grade (who is old for grade) wrote HORRIBLY all through kindergarten. He had to interpret everything he wrote. Magically he is writing much better this year. Yesterday at school (I was volunteering) the whole class was making books on Christopher Columbus. Most kids were writing maybe a misspelled sentance or 2. DS was writing long paragraphs that I could actually READ on every page. It seemed well above 2nd grade writing to me compared to 2nd grade stuff I've read in the halls.

My point being as that these little guys change so incredibly fast. If he's anything like my DS, he probably needs some inspiration to get good at something. School is probably really boring for him, so why should he master it yet?

And I don't blame you for letting your son play World of Warcraft at all. My DS has been exposed to lots of non-age appropriate games and movies. He just seems to "get" it, and doesn't act it out in real life ever. Movies, games don't scare him at all. When your child is mentally years older than chronological age, sometimes you make non-orthodox choices.

Anyway - keep us posted! I'm also counting the days until summer.

I'm so sorry for your situation. It is so hard to see both the struggle for self control in an adverse environment and know that a single skill has such a high priority with the schools instead of being just 1 piece in the puzzle.

I am so glad to read the above posts since DS is almost 9 and his handwriting has not improved much even with OT and handwriting without tears. At least there is still hope. In fact, if he had to write the Columbus book his would look like most of the one's you described. A couple sloppy sentences with lots of errors. However, if they let him type the page, it would look much different lol.

I hope this school will continue to work with you. Any battles you can win here, will help you when you hit the new schools.

Good luck!

Thanks, ladies, for the kind words and support. It does help. I'm also glad to hear about handwriting improving in first grade ... it certainly might be a maturity thing. We'll see what the school has to say if we *ever* actually do the IAS.

Mia,

Move out by us. At worst our elem. school isn't that bad. I could tell you which school in the district is most GT friendly and you could move there. We'd still be a mile or two apart anc could have playdates!

The hitting thing is concerning. I don't think it's from playing a video game. Even though I met B for a short time, it's CLEAR he is NOT the violent sort. I'm thinking extreme frustration.

There are a lot of kids like C-dog around here, that helps. Maybe B would benefit with playing with more kids like him.

DO NOT be sad about his consequence and don't you dare waver!! You need to let him know you are serious about this. If he starts with the hitting it could develop into a problem, then hed might have a real problem finding friends. The other parents won't trust him and won't let their kids play with him. Sorry to be so brash. I'm a softie, but sometimes the tough love route is the way to go.

Incog

When I read your post I knew I had to show it to my nine year old son. He thinks your son is a lot like he was at that age. My son has always liked MMORPG games and has seen World of Warcraft and is impressed that a five year old could play a complicated RPG that requires so much reading. My son plays mostly free online MMORPG games now because I can't afford anything with a monthly fee. He occasionally plays Runescape.

Regarding the fighting, my son said he had trouble with bullies in kindergarten and he was being called names like geek and nerd. He was the only five year old in his kindergarten class reading well (5th grade level) even though a lot of the kids had been redshirted and were a year older. He was the second youngest in his class and he was no match physically for the bullies. He recalls one time when a boy wanted to fight him and he says he knew this older, much bigger boy was going to focus on taking him out using brute strength, which is something my son knows he doesn't have, so he knew he would have to focus on dodging the blows. He said when the other boy kept bullying him, he knew he had to face it but he also knew the bell was supposed to ring soon so he said he "held up his little nerdy fists" in response to the bully's threats and luckily the bell rang before he had to defend himself.

The handwriting issue is something he had to deal with also, but my son had hypotonia and motor dyspraxia which made handwriting and coloring in the lines difficult. He had a problem with reversing letters and numbers. Even though he made what normally would have been a passing score over and end of year first grade test to see if he could score high enough to skip first grade, he didn't make the required 90% in order to skip first grade and I believe it was partly because he couldn't write very well. The kindergarten teacher suggested holding him back a year to practice coloring in the lines and drawing and handwriting since she didn't think he needed to learn anything the next year. This is why really had no choice but to homeschool.

He was recently tested by his OT and his handwriting was low average but because of his hypotonia he still wouldn't be able to write as much as other kids. He has to write slowly to write legibly so he types most of his work at home. His visual motor integration tested a few years below his actual age, but he can write legibly enough that if he were in school they would not be required to provide accommodations.

Mia, I'm sorry for your stressful times. And adding a move and a XH to the mix must be so much harder. In our case, it is DS's handwriting that's holding him back from more rigorous academic programs at area private schools. But from what I recall about your son, he didn't have the fine motor or fatigue issues my gut did. Maybe he's bored. Whatever it is, I know it's no fun and I feel for you. Good luck. And thanks for your kind words on the other thread.

Clearly, I meant guy, not gut. Can't edit on my BB, and suretype drives me crazy. My gut has other issues.

Yeah, it's definitly a sign of his 'asynchousness' as the average player is 34 years old. That's average. DS11 loves it also. It does encourage typing if he's chatting while he plays...

Sorry he's having such a tough time. I believe that you should just keep pursuing the gradeskip and act like you are sure that the handwriting - and the keyboarding - will come in their own sweet time. My .02
Grin

Incog -- You guys are south, right? We're looking more north (dh works in Deerfield) ... hmm. And I'm not feeling guilty about taking away his World of Warcraft; *he's* just missing it a little. It wasn't a direct punishment; more of a "We've decided it may not be age-appropriate for you right now." But I think he knows it was in response to the fighting incident, because he just kind of took that at face value -- when usually he would push the issue.

Lori -- WOW does take a lot of reading, and a lot of attention and handwork, which is why we were ok with him playing. Again, for those who haven't seen it, there really isn't any gratuitous violence; the name makes it sound worse than it is. The only thing he can't do well is chat because he doesn't type fast, but he was getting there; someone was asking if anyone knew where a character was, and B typed, "iknow"! Then I had to jump in and help him, because the other player thought he was talking to an adult!

Grin -- I know, right? Asynchronous indeed! I do still plan on pursuing the skip, because it's clear that first grade is not what he needs. His handwriting will eventually improve ... but if nothing else changes, his attitude is just going to go down the pipes.

Again, thanks all for weighing in. The handwriting is actually the least of my concerns; it's the fighting and the attitude about school that is the worst. And the fact that he's so busy talking in class that he doesn't finish the work (which is counting and cutting, so pointless for him), which is going to make people think he *can't* do the work.

The chat feature on MMORPG games is the incentive my son needed to learn to type quickly. It is also one of the reasons he decided to learn to spell really well because he didn't want to take the time to look up the words he wanted to use.

I have also worried that another player might think he is an adult.

Lori -- all players think ds is an adult until they try to talk to him -- well, why wouldn't they, if the average age is 34?? Certainly they don't expect a 5yo to be playing. We always sit with him (we only have laptops), so we would jump in whenever anyone tried to talk and explain. People were really nice about it.

not like my kids need another game, but I feel compelled to tell them about world of warcraft after this.

Cym, think about it carefully and check it out.
WOW is reported to be the most addictive computer game. People go crazy. My friend is getting a divorce right now, hubby went crazy (literally, had to be put away) playing it non stop.
I can't imagine exposing a child to anything like that, but that's just me :-)

The cutting is a fine motor skill as well so it will help him to do it. Kumon makes lots of variations of cut out and paste activity books. Once he gets the hang of it you can get him the more sophisticated cutouts from Dover they have themes such as historical clothing and Shakespeare.

I also suggest getting him an OT eval and working on his fine motor starting now and through the summer so that he is closer to the average range in fine motor in the fall. If you address that issue it will be easier for the school to agree to a skip. Skipping him without the fine motor skills could make the situation worse, but I think if his fine motor is as bad as you say, and he goes through OT, and you follow through with home exercises, he will improve unless it is another problem altogether. On the other hand, letter reversals are still normal for a K student regardless of how smart they are.

You don't need to do a ton of exercises a day at home, but if you pick one or two to work on everyday for 15 minutes there could be improvement. Some things you can do before getting the evaluation are: turn pennies, Pop the Pirate game, cutting, folding (origami) and beading. Therapists often use Handwriting Without Tears. First figure out which letters he does not form correctly by watching him write the lower case alphabet then choose one or two of those letters per week to trace in a rice tray and then switch to a blunt pencil in the tray when he has the fluid movement and order, and then move to paper. It helps to say something like "a" make a circle, close it, slide down the pole. You can make them up yourself.

I also helped the situation by reminding my child to make sure to write clearly and carefully on papers for the teacher because it will help the teacher know what you can do if she or he can read it.

Cym-- check it out, yes, before you introduce your kids. It *can* be pretty addictive! On the other hand, so can alcohol, and very few who drink socially are actually alcoholics. As I say, we only have laptops, and we were always with him while he played.

Ania: see above. :-) Of course we can feel differently about this. However, a 5-year-old playing under supervision is quite different than a crazy ex-h, just like a 19-year-old having a glass of wine under parental supervision is diffferent than a 50-year-old alcoholic.

Eamsnova: thank you for your advice! I'll think all that over and see what we want to work in. Thank you, thank you!

I'm with Mia. A game is a game. People can be addicted to anything--even food, shopping...and video games. That has much more to do with the person than the game.

WOW is not something to fear because of its basic nature. It doesn't have something inherent to it that "makes people go crazy." Would it really continue to be sold if it were as bad as all that?

I'm sorry about your friend's situation, Ania, but I really believe that one case--no matter how extreme and horrible--doesn't necessarily mean that the game itself is the problem. In fact, I could hold up Mia's DS as counterevidence: the game was taken away from him, and he didn't even debate it with her. Clearly for Mia's DS, WOW was a harmless hobby and not a dangerous addiction.

From everything I've read on this forum, it's clear to me that Mia and Cym are responsible parents. I just felt like I needed to say that for their sakes. Their interest in a game doesn't diminish that level of responsibility.

I totally agree. Anything can be addictive. I do think you need to monitor what your kids are doing and be responsible - which obviously is what is happening here.

My DS7 gets 20 minutes on the computer a day and he does manage to find some games that are for teenagers or adults. But we really monitor his usage and are there for answering questions, etc. And DS is really coming along with his typing ability too! He does need to ask before he gets in a chat room or creates a new account somewhere.

DS13 says he's tried WOW and hates it (he's very superlative now that he's a teen...it's either great or "sucks"). DS 11 doesn't do games really, so that's a non-issue. But! DS9 tends to exhibit addictive behaviors (DH & I both have battled with the evil weed tobacco--I won, but...) so we fear addictive traits in the kiddos. DS9 is currently obsessed with Age of the Empires and spends hrs of time imagining scenarios, writing them out short-story like, etc. Great vocabulary come from it, some historical stuff. I think that's plenty to occupy game-time for now. I did mention WOW to him, but he wasn't feeling well last night.

Age of Empires, hunh? I'll have to check that out ...

I like Civilizations better than Age of Empires, but AoE is okay. I like that there's building and diplomacy involved in Civ, not just battling. (AoE has some building, but it's definitely harder to play AoE without engaging in some warring.) You can win Civ by scoring more points, building the first spacecraft, or through the United Nations, among other methods. No war required. Civ has no magic, but I don't think AoE does either, does it?

BTW, in Civ, the "violence" is totally bloodless--like Risk or Stratego's boardgame variety of violence, where game pieces just disappear from play when "killed." I think that's pretty much how it is in AoE, too, but I haven't played it in a long while, so my memory could be faulty.

Civ has a good bit of history in it, too, including a fairly comprehensive and accurate "Civilopedia" where you can look up info about the wonders of the world and other such facts. Not that I would count it as school time if my DS played it, but at least it's something vaguely educational...

No typing words, though there a lot of reading involved. No spelling required either.

My son doesn't like Age of Empires as much as Empire Earth. It is similar but has more ages. It doesn't just have the medieval age and he says it goes from cavemen to futuristic robots.

I am at work now but when I get home I will post a link to a discussion that I once read about WOW.
Age of Empires and Civilizations are played by DS, althought the latter one as a board game.
I generally try very hard for my kids to play games others than computer, I feel that thay learn muh better, healthier interactions with others by staying away from it. They are exposed to the computerized life so much, I beg them to go outside and play with "real" friends or animals (namely our dog :-)or read.
I do feel very strong about computer games, as you can well see. I blame them for increased isolation among todays youth and even adults.

I think we have to agree to disagree on this one, Ania.

Many people blame computers in general for isolation, yet here we are, on this useful forum, connecting with people in a way that is positive and helpful to us, and would be very nearly impossible without computers. It is what you make of it.

Computers are a tool. Computer games are no more isolating than a deck of cards for a solitare game or TV or a basketball hoop for shooting solo baskets. Heck, when I was a kid, I read books and played Barbies alone in my room for days in a row sometimes without a friend in sight. How is that worse than imagining a world online? Not everyone needs or wants lots of social interaction. There's nothing wrong with being alone if you're happy that way.

In Mia's case, she even sits with her DS, so it is a family game. How is that isolating?

Of course you are welcome to keep your children away from computer games completely if you choose. I certainly limit the time my kids spend on the computer or in front of the TV and encourage my kids to play with friends, as does every other parent here that I've heard discuss the matter. But I do not accept that computer games are inherently evil or are inherently ruining society. I believe they are what you make of them.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course, but I feel like you're trying to persuade Mia, Cym and I that we're wrong. I know that for my part, I've read the studies and the discussions. Frankly, I'm not persuaded that moderate use is harmful. I don't think I'm likely to be.

<shrug>

But what if the game is played family style? We have two laptops (and no desktop) at our house, and typically if B was playing WOW, one parent was also playing with him -- interacting, answering questions, helping with strategy, etc.

It's not that I don't see value in other games; of course board games and playing outside and dogs, etc., are valuable in their own right. But I think it's hard to say, "This one game is to the detriment of children," especially if your own ds is playing similar computer games.

I wonder, have you ever seen World of Warcraft played, or is your viewpoint based on the crazy husband and articles you've read? I think it's pretty hard to judge something like this without actually having *seen* it, kwim?

No matter how many links to discussions you've seen in the past -- you may want to consider that this is just as valid a discussion, just from a different viewpoint; and this discussion is peopled with some highly intelligent, involved parents, many of whom see a benefit to playing these games. I'm sure I could find a board out there that says that *this* board is nuts, that GT programs are a waste of resources that could go to children who aren't up to "standards", and that we should let our kids be kids. Since we're posting on this board, I think most of us would disagree with that line of thought; we see benefit in moving our kids along.

Likewise, there are benefits to playing video games, especially on the computer. In this day and age, computer literacy is crucial. Plus, World of Warcraft is complex; it has its own economic system, its own social system, its own rules and social structure. People actually *study* WOW's economic system. And these systems mimic those of the real world. Not only that, but the kid has fun, learns about math and typing and -- yes -- about limits and time management.

As a gamer himself and an EGer at least (never formally tested, but it's painfully obvious), dh has been following this conversation with interest; he makes the point that many parents treat video games like they treat TV. He says (and I agree) that video games, especially online games, should be treated just like going outside -- we need to know what you're doing, who you'll be with, how long you'll be doing it, and when you'll be done. And we as parents can regulate these things -- and we do. It's not like ds was in a dark, windowless room, playing video games until 6am with no interaction. We were there, knew what he was doing, and were monitoring it the whole time.

I feel very strongly that computer games can be beneficial when played in moderation, not to mention that they're great escapism. :-)

And remember, this discussion started with me saying we've banned WOW for now! But it won't be permanent, and I honestly do see benefit to playing this sort of game.

Good points had by all.

Different strokes for different folks.


I

^^^ agree :-)
I will defer from posting the above mentioned link.

And on that note, thanks for the game suggestions! DS7 LOVES Age of the Empires.

Agreed to disagree.

But the child's handwriting is still atrocious.