Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional New, confused, and frustrated (long)

I'm not even certain I belong on this board and would like advice on how much of my dd9's school issues could be giftedness vs. LDs vs. difficult personality traits. I'm also looking for general support - everyone I know in person is getting tired of hearing about me obsess over this!

She's never been tremendously advanced academically.
reading - barely on grade level
math - working EPGY about 2 years ahead, but according to the school, she's now below grade level because she can't do timed facts tests
writing - fine quality when she does it, but it takes HOURS to get a couple of sentences out. It's like she can't remember any of her thoughts once she gets a pencil in her hand.
Oddly enough, she was verbally quite advanced as a baby and preschooler and absorbed science facts like a sponge until about kindergarten. Now she seems pretty average except for her extreme interest in art. In the last year she's almost given up science, which breaks my heart. She says she already knows everything they're teaching, and I'm afraid she's right.

She's always had trouble respecting teachers' authority just because they're adults. It took her half of first grade to accept that when the teacher gives you a worksheet, they expect you to stop everything else and complete the worksheet right now. She still resents this concept, two years later.

In the last year she has started to freeze up: at the least little frustration, she turns into a statue and is completely unresponsive to anyone at all, sometimes for hours. (It's a pain when this happens after she takes off pajamas in the morning but before getting dressed. Very hard to take her to school in this state. Several times we had to physically dress her and carry her to the car.) This freaked her poor teacher out and started a round of conferences with the school:

Her teachers think her doctor should check her for ADD. Meanwhile, we saw a school-recommended therapist, who loved her and didn't see any problems. She also saw a psych intern weekly during school, who loved her and didn't see any problems. Eventually we got the report back from the ADD questionnaire: our psych said, no, but maybe she has anxiety, possibly caused by learning disabilities. So, the school tested her for learning disabilities directly related to writing assignments and said no, there's nothing they need to address. She does have poor verbal memory compared to everything else (just average) and this may be causing frustration. Their whole plan for handling her next year is geared around helping her to manage her frustration in a more productive way, which they've been working on already this year by her weekly visits with the intern.

I have the full report from these tests. I'll post the individual scores if someone can advise me on them. Her GCA score on the Differential Abilities Scales 2nd Edition was 132, solidly MG. I wouldn't expect her to drown in a regular classroom with this score, and she certainly isn't DYS material based on it.

I did get a couple of choice quotes from these meetings. The principal said "The problem is, we know she's a smart kid," (nervous giggles all around the table), meaning she'll figure out how to manipulate us if we give her half a chance. Also from the principal, in response to a request to have an educational goal of working up to her potential instead of just the state standards: "We get asked about that all the time, but that's not really what we do here. We don't have the resources or the responsibility to do that." GATE services in our district consist of identifying kids in middle school and monitoring them annually for depression and underachievement.

Meanwhile we're exploring sending her to the local gifted school. They required a Qualitative Assessment by their admissions coordinator before applying. Her assessment was that dd is definitely gifted, but would probably 'read low' on an IQ test, and they'd welcome her into the school. It does have extremely small classes with lots of staff and flexibility but I kind of wonder whether she's saying that based on my kid, or based on her school?

So - for next year, what do I do? Public school again? A private school that we can't really afford? Do I have to quit the job I love and homeschool, which I think I'd be bad at? Yell at the principal? More tests? Who can I trust?

If you've gotten this far, thank you so much for letting me vent!

I am no expert by any means but it sounds to me like you have a child who is gifted plus learning delayed in some manner and quite possibly does have ADD - but being gifted (and female) is not going to tick the boxes to be neatly and easily diagnosed with anything. In your shoes I would be researching who the local experts are in dealing with both giftedness AND whatever else you think is going on and take her to them, not just school assessments.

I just recently attended a fantastic 2E conference and the paed who gave the keynote speech was very clear that you often CAN'T diagnose any child, but particularly a gifted child by doing standard tests in a boring room with nothing to distract them. He told the tale of a girl who early in his career he had sworn was perfectly normal. The parents begged him to come observe her at school, so he did. He could hear a commotion as the principle lead him down the corridor and when he entered the classroom this "perfectly normal girl with no problems" was standing on her desk - naked and flinging her clothes around the room. He now still does a battery of testing but diagnoses with significant weight on thorough history and QEEG brain scans.

My point is two fold - there are some experts out there who do know about how giftedness and LDs intersect. AND there are also professionals like the intern and therapist you have seen, who while sitting face to face with your DD having a conversation that is fun for them both will not see any problems at all - which does not necessarily mean that there are no issues to be seen, only that they are not obvious in that scenario. I certainly know that my own DD is SO much better 1:1 that even her special ed teacher was not aware of the full scope of her issues until she hit small group support in yr3, at which point we were asked to have further evaluations done.

ljoy,
First of all hugs. It is so hard to watch your child struggle and to search for evasive answers.

You've begun the process by having her tested. This is the first step. You have gleaned/confirmed some information - you have a very bright child - one that should not struggle in the public school. But, the evaluator was not able to provide you any information beyond that.

I believe that you need to have your child privately evaluated by an independent neuropsychologist that is an expert with children, educational issues, LD and giftedness. (long list!). Private evaluations are diagnostic. Generally, school evaluations are conducted to determine special education eligibility under the law. Two different objectives that affect (or effect? I never learned) the outcome, the depth of the information and the types of tests that are used.

Did the school conduct any other tests? If you could post the subtest and composite scores we may be able to identify patterns that they did not. My hunch is that something is going on with your child's reading. I'm wondering if they gave any of these tests: CTOPP, GORT, TOWRE, WJRM? Did they give you a processing speed number for the DAS? My hunch is that processing speed is relatively low - just as you pointed out Working Memory was low in comparison to her other "reasoning" scores. This is a flag for LD or ADHD. But, even anxiety can present in a similar way. You need to gather more information to peel back the onion to try and determine the root cause of her distress and trouble.

You should also know that under IDEA (special ed law), if you disagree with a district's evaluation for any reason (you believe it is not complete, accurate, whatever), you can request an individual educational evaluation (IEE) by a qualified independent evaluator of your choice at the district's expense. The district has a right to prove in court that their evaluation was satisfactory - but most won't take the time or $$ and instead will grant the IEE. You also have the right to pay for one on your own or try to get your insurance to pay. Here's some info about IEE's http://www.wrightslaw.com/info/test.iee.steedman.htm

Once you have more information about her learning profile, then you can explore school options. Please take the first step and get an independent evaluation.

I am not alone! Sorry to wander completely off topic...

First things first ---- if school hasn't ended in your part of the country, get into that private school and see what is going on in the classroom. You must sit quietly in the back of the room and see what the kids, teachers, and educational process is like. No verbal description is worth anything - go LOOK.

((Hugs))
Grinity

The special intense interests, the writing difficulty, and the "difficult personality" are also flags for Asperger's. I'd add the ADOS, Conner's rating scale, and the Vineland to Mich's list of tests.

DeeDee

Adding to Grinity, if school is still going on, have her do a day visiting at the private school. We recently had a friend's child (albeit, a 5 year old) whose behavior turned around completely when we moved from a bad preschool to a great kindergarten (at a private school, also struggling for enrollment in the recession) in the middle of the year.

I've been really shocked with how bad our state is with any kid who isn't average-- in my home state growing up, public school sucked with gifted but they were fantastic with other special education. The school we're sending DC to next year has a lot of both precisely because the public elementary has failed them. Depending on what state you live in and what you find, they may pay for outside testing, schooling, and/or therapy if they cannot accommodate you. But only in some states.

In your situation, based on what you've said, I wouldn't give up your job to homeschool. I would start exploring additional ways to save and make money so you can better afford additional help. And do those tests. I bet you don't have to commit to enrollment at the other school until August or September, despite what they may say. There will still be spots available, so if school is out for the summer you can wait to observe at the beginning of the year next year, and you can for test results.

Good luck!

I think you do affect and have an effect. �It seems likely affect is a verb and effect has "an" or "the" in front of it which makes it part of a prepositional phrase, I think.

Original Mamma, I haven't read the book "the misdiagnosis of gifted children" but it is often recommended for mothers wanting to feel a little better informed about how giftedness and problems overlap and present separately. �This is usually recommended reading for parents early in the process before asking professionals. �

I'm clueless about what ljoy should do for the best, so I'm glad others have been able to advise, but this I do understand :-)

Both "affect" and "effect" can function as both nouns and verbs, but they have importantly different meanings. Here are some correct sentences.

This factor affects what happens. (That is, it makes some difference to what happens.)
This action effects a change in attitude. (That is, it causes a change in attitude, all by itself: remember this by noticing that it means the action is effective!)
The effect of this action would be that everyone would clap.
The affect of this piece of music is sadness. ("Affect" here means mood or emotional attitude; it's a much more technical and rarer sense than the others. It also has, in my dialect at least, a different stress from the others - I put the stress here on the first syllable, whereas for all the others I stress the second syllable.)

Thank you for all your responses!

She did get to visit the classroom several months ago, and liked it. But she's overwhelmed by the possibility of making a choice of schools. The room also lost its main teacher soon after her visit, but the teacher she liked is still there. We've been to a parent night but not observed the room. They have group tours for parents rather than individual observation.

Here are the scores. I put the percentiles in parentheses, I do realize they're different from percents.

In addition to these, she was diagnosed with Type I diabetes this spring. Her endocrinologist says that this could not possibly have affected her for more than a few weeks before diagnosis, it's very fast onset. So it's one more stressor this spring, but all the problems existed a year ago. These results are from the last month or so, when her diabetes is very well controlled.

I think the doctor's office did the Conner's scales (is that a questionnaire to parents?) but I can't find that piece of paper right now. The doctor found mild but non-clinical problems in most of the areas (depression, anxiety, attention issues, atypicality, etc.)

Differential Abilities Scales - 2nd Edition (DAS-ll)

WRAML 2

WIAT - III
*She wrote a great essay, but not to the prompt, so got very few points.

WJ III

Brown ADD Scale

[Scores all removed for privacy]