Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Twice Exceptional Is this Asperger's??

Good Morning all. Hope you all had great weekends. I wanted to through out a question to you all, and hope to gain some insight, as well as advice regarding DS5.
He has tested M-H gifted on IQ tests, and his achievement testing was off the charts. He is pretty flexible in most cases (we moved last weekend with no resistance, he goes with the flow and has no resistance to change). He does, however; have extreme obsessions. The past few months, it has been Pop music. He will listen to, read about, watch, and talk about pop music around the clock if allowed. He will listen to Pandora and make lists of which songs he wants to download. He has a LONG list of songs he wants. He can name any song from the first note, and tell you who sings it, if it is "featuring" another "artist", what album it is on.... He loves to play "name that tune" on skype with his long distance cousins (who are 12 and 10 years of age). When he gets in the car he says "I want my station" and is upset if we say no. He looks on Itunes and Youtube if left alone, and is particularly obsessed with the female artists (Lady Gaga and Katy Perri and Britney Spears. He is 5!! He will talk about who has songs that are "explicit" and who has songs that are "clean". Left to his own devices, he could easily "look" at music all day long (he likes to draw the album cover art).
Attempts to limit "music time" are met with "I'M mad at you. I am so so so so angry. Why are you being mean to me" and so on, along with crying.
We enrolled him in music lessons, and he enjoys it, but wants to skip "learning to read music" and jump straight to playing "pop". He uses the word "genre" to describe his "pop" music....
Is this at all normal behavior for a 5 year old boy????
How do we control this. OH, if we take away all music sources. he will dance and sing and beatbox all the songs that are in his head.
He has friends, but they report that he sings all the time at recess.
He is affectionate, loving, has excellent eye contact, reads body language and no sensory issues that are extraordinary.
PLEASE, advice would be great, it is getting very frustrating and upsetting and he will be starting a new school in the fall, where I doubt this will be acceptable behavior.
Thanks!!

It doesn't really sound like Asperger's to me, if none of the red-flag behaviors are present. I feel for you. I don't know what I'd do if my five year old son were beat-boxing to Britney Spears and Katy Perry all day.

Lukemac,

It does not sound like Asperger's to me either. At 5 DS was obsessed with pokemon, since then the obsessions have cycled through wwII weapons, ebay surfing, Call of Duty, learning Russian etc.
I do empathize with you having to listen to Katy Perry and Lady Gaga all day. My most recent horror is my son's interest in "techno" music and my daughter repeatedly playing "Baby" by Justin Bieber.

Lu, it is killing me! I can't stop him!! My husband keeps joking that "he's got music in his soul" but it is SO INAPPROPRIATE! and he LOVES it.... we are trying to expand his repertoire!!
Also, trying to figure out if he is gender confused at all.... maybe he wants to be a girl?? I cannot understand his fascination with these performers.

Oh, Justin Bieber.... he just LOVES him too. He went to see the movie with my husband, and then wanted to go see it again the next day with me....

I say nurture it! My DH was described just like your son. His mom would take him into record stores when he was two and he would name all of the artist on album covers and talk about their songs. He would spend hours spinning records on pencils and singing and drumming on things. His early music obsession has lasted his whole life. He has a vault of music knowledge that is staggering (always have him on your team in trivia games!). Sadly, his parents would chuckle at him but they never nurtured his love of music. He was not offered any music lessons. He now plays two intruments well... completely self-taught. He spends a good portion of his day listening to music, talking about it, researching it or playing it.

As an aside, he has NO traits of Aspergers. Just an extreme love of music (and maybe a little ADHD?).

I agree with kathleen'smum that I'd nurture in general the interest he's showing, since at least part of this current obsession must come from a genuine love of music.

I have no idea about gender confusion, but I don't think it's necessarily that. Maybe he's metrosexual. This particular direction might just be because he likes music, but other little boys he's around don't talk much about music right now, while the girls do. Does he have little girls who are good friends right now? When I was young, the only kid in my neighborhood who was on my wavelength was a girl and we became best friends for a long time, although (thank goodness) there was no Justin Bieber to speak of back then, and she was sort of a tomboy to boot.

At 5, DS would BLAST "Single Ladies" by Beyonce any where we went.

it was the scariest time in my life.

He's 7 now, and he's turned out a-ok. So far.............

Oh lukemac, hang in there! I can understand being worried and fed up as you reach for the advil!!

I totally agree about the not asperger's, not that I am expert in that area but it sounds to me just like total immersion, what caught me in your story is not that he is singing and listening, but that he is cataloging and patterning and learning. He is studying this - I know a kid like this about cars, he doesn't play just with cars, or video games, he knows every car name, can spot a car by it's sound, his mother thought it as nuts, and a waste of attention, but thats what he like, so of course they fed it. With iTunes and pandora he has a never ending supply of new information. Most kids do not hav the singular focus like these types - I don't think it's a bad thing - other than how much it annoys you but my sense is the all encompassing is what annoys you - so maybe try to find fun things to do where it is impossible to access music - harder these days with iPods and the like - but super fun things that might spark his interest like at a children's museum. Or science museum or trekking through a park.

Just some thoughts, but if he can't be distracted I hear Bose makes awesome sound proofing head phones

DeHe

Lukemac, I think the answer to your question is "we can't tell from here based on this information." If you're concerned, which I understand that you are, I think you should seek an evaluation.

Yes, that kind of obsessive categorizing is a hallmark feature of AS, as is the resistance to being separated from the obsession.

AS kids can sometimes be reasonably flexible about the things they don't care about, but deeply inflexible about their obsessions.


That could be a classic 5yo temper tantrum, or classic AS inflexibility. It takes a professional to sort this out.

How are your DS's social skills? Pretend play? Unscripted cooperative play? Does he care about and understand how others are feeling? Is he an anxious person? Those would all be markers that would likely help you start to sort this out.

DeeDee

His social skills are... good? He has a lot of friends but has been with the same kids for 3 years now and it has taken a while to get to a place where he loves them like he does. He is empathic to a point - more for physical injuries then emotional injuries, if that makes sense.
Pretend play is good - but he much prefers his music.
He used to be incredibly anxious, but has seemed to outgrown it. New environments used to take a lot of warming up to, as did athletics. For example, he used to be afraid to jump in a pool, now he goes running in and dives at full speed. Same for his razor scooter, which he avoided for so long, then got on one day and zipped around like a monster.
He is reserved in new environments.
When he is in his music "zone" I think to myself, WOW this is AS for sure..... Then I pick him up from school and he is surrounded by and engaged with his friends and laughing and goofing around and I think "no way".
We investigated this diagnosis or PDD/NOS when he was 3, and were given mixed results - some said yes, some said no.
He had a serious injury during that time (finger tip amputated at SCHOOL going to the playground in a door by the teacher!!!, it was reattached via surgery) and we leaned towards attributing some of his anxiety to this.
He is a LOVE BUG.. and I mean LOVE BUG. The I love yous and kisses and pictures drawn and love notes written to me are ENDLESS.
The dr. who tested his IQ said NO WAY to AS and I thought I had closed the book on that one, but yesterday, watching him with that music I was kind of back in the HECK YES space.....

THank you all for your responses..... it really helps~~

Lukemac, I'd go for an evaluation to be sure. The avoidance of new things, the inflexibility around the area of special interest, the intensity of that interest are all a little atypical, though not enough to make an armchair diagnosis easy. If his social relationships are truly reciprocal, with give-and-take and genuinely flexible conversation about a wide variety of topics, it's unlikely he has AS; but my instinct is to be sure, especially since AS is usually missed in bright kids and you suspected PDD-NOS earlier.

It will take a while to get an appointment (there are often waiting lists with qualified people)-- during that time you can make notes so that you have lots of info to give the evaluator. They will need to know things like how much time DS spends with the music per day if left unchecked; what is the nature of the protest about the music, how often, for how long; does the music habit interfere with other areas of life (play, school, family life); what happens if you make it so there's no access to the music for a few days. Anything you're concerned about, get some detailed data down so that you're discussing facts rather than perceptions.

There are lists of evaluators at www.aspergersyndrome.org .

Best,
DeeDee

I just wanted to add that I feel for you. If someone doesn't live with a child with obsessive interests, they have no idea how mind numbing it can be for the parent. My DD5 goes through various "obsessions" that everyone thinks are harmless and her recent evaluation came back as negative for Aspergers, but that doesn't make it easier on me as a parent. I worry it will alienate other children, that her brain gets stuck in ruts, etc. I feel for you even though it appears harmless. It can be draining to hear about the same topic again and again. I know.

I just wanted to add that I feel for you. If someone doesn't live with a child with obsessive interests, she has no idea how mind numbing it can be for the parent. My DD5 goes through various "obsessions" that everyone thinks are harmless and her recent evaluation came back as negative for Aspergers, but that doesn't make it easier on me as a parent. I worry it will alienate other children, that her brain gets stuck in ruts, etc. I feel for you even though it appears harmless. It can be draining to hear about the same topic again and again. I know.

Just to add: if it takes the child away from other beneficial things (friendships, family time, other learning opportunities) this kind of obsession isn't harmless at all. It's often a manifestation of anxiety, and can be really disabling. I'm for working toward helping the child have a range of interests that feel fulfiling, not just one.

DeeDee

Thanks all! DS was receiving Special Ed under an eligibility of SLD during his preschool years, and he received social skills and OT. We elected to send him to a Transitional K program this year which was private, so he has not received his IEP services. We received in the mail paperwork to see if we are interested in having his triennial evaluation and although we are prepared to send him to private school for 1st grade, I checked the box and will have them reevaluate him. We also have an appt with his neurologist scheduled this July to take a look.
In an odd twist, and I work for a school district on an intake and assessment team for preschool special education and also am a licensed therapist with the ability to diagnose via the DSM.... I still grapple over my own kid though.......
Thanks for the support, and I will keep you all posted!!!

Lukemac, sounds like a good plan. The private evaluation is key (the school may or may not have the expertise, but I would be doubtful). Make sure the neurologist has seen lots and lots of kids with autism spectrum disorders; there is no substitute for a trained specialist.

Grappling over your own kid is not a surprise to me. It took us lots of trying and false starts before we could start figuring our own out. The gifted/ASD menu of possibilities is full of interesting shades of gray and loads of frustrations, but wow, these kids also have so many possibilities.

Will be thinking of you.
DeeDee

My DS, who is 4.5 is the exact same way. Right down to the Britney spears and telling us the genres and if the song is explicit. Your description is eerily like my DS! What part of the country are you in, our kids could be BFF's! One time he was singing womanizer so loud in target I had to threaten to take away the iPod! It's ridiculous! He has track lists from all of his favorite CDs memorized. Right now he actually loves gorillaz, gee, that's appropriate! He does know he cant listen to explicit songs, but there are some that don't have swearing that talk about inappropriate things. That reminds me of his beck days.

He has one million toy instruments, he has always loved music. My inlaws are music fanatics too, everyone, including dh played more than one instrument, so I really think some of it is genetic. The rest I figure is a gifted quirk.

But how many of those kids you've seen were gifted? How many were highly gifted? Even if you've seen 1000 kids, 20ish would be expected to be gifted, and 2 would be expected to be 'way gifted' - so you can see how much time it takes to get real expertise with this population!
Love and more love,
Grinity

Thanks Dee... The doc is pretty well known and respected... he has always been on the fence regarding my kid so it will be interesting.
Amber - we are in Southern California - come on over for a music party!!!!
Grin - I have seen 1000's of kids - and you a so right. Throwing giftedness into the mix clouds the picture when there is also a disability to consider.

After all of the testing we had done for DS, I really thought, "well, that's that - he's just gifted" HAHAHA..... To think that I thought that was the answer and that life would go on so simply!!

Amber - i just looked at your posts, and not only are our kids alike with their Britney Spears obsession - they scored very similarly on their tests!! Where do you live?????

Sad, we live in the Midwest. . Maybe we will make our way put ere one day, we lived in the bay area for a few years and loved it.


I had to make my dh read your thread, he couldn't believe it either. Crazy!

When mine (gifted/AS) was 3-4 he spent a lot of time (I do mean a lot) writing out CD covers for imaginary CDs, and adding up the times of the songs. He found both the repetition and the math of it very soothing. But he was never obsessed by the music itself at that age. Later it went into music notation, again as a math sideline.

DeeDee