Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Need honesty...EXPLORE scores, how far to advance?

A few people have commented that the "Developing Math Talent" (DMT) recommendations seem aggressive to them, causing me to reread this section of the book.

The link I posted was to the 2005 edition of DMT, with score ranges for grades 3, 4, 5, and 6 of

A: 1-8, 1-9, 1-11, 1-14
B: 8-11, 9-12, 11-15, 12-19
C: 11-25, 12-25, 15-25, 19-25

The 2011 2nd edition of the book (no link, I'm referring to my copy) has slightly stricter criteria:

A: 1-9, 1-12, 1-14, 1-16
B: 9-12, 12-15, 14-17, 16-19
C: 12-25, 15-25, 17-25, 19-25

The median math scores for grades 3 to 6 were 11.6, 13.9, 16.2, 17.3 . The qualifying math scores for Davidson Young Scholars (DYS) are slightly higher: 14, 16, 18, and 21 (the actual criterion is that the composite score plus two subject test scores must meet the minimum score criteria).

These numbers refer to the math scores, but all the scores must matter. Certainly colleges look at all the scores on the ACT, even for prospective math/science/engineering students.

The authors do not cite a formal study to justify their recommendations of educational options, writing that "The program options we considered were based on 20 years of experience in creating programs for the range of talents demonstrated by the gifted students who take EXPLORE". I think DMT is a great book and respect the authors' judgement, but these are judgement calls.

Some of the recommendations pertain to middle school and high school. Students who score in the C range of EXPLORE should take the ACT and/or SAT in 7th (or even 6th grade). I wonder what the A, B, and C score ranges should be for 7th graders taking the ACT or SAT. The DMT thresholds for the C range on the EXPLORE are above the medians of talent search participants in each grade. It is plausible to identify students scoring well above the median of talent search 7th graders on the ACT or SAT as being in the C group. The ACT and SAT scores needed to qualify for Johns Hopkins summer courses are at http://cty.jhu.edu/summer/iselig.html , and according to http://cty.jhu.edu/ts/faq.html#Courses_1 about 30% of 7th and 8th graders get these scores.

The DYS thresholds for EXPLORE scores are slightly higher than the DMT book's thresholds for the C group, as described above, and DYS thresholds for the ACT and SAT for kids in higher grades are at http://www.davidsongifted.org/young...holars___Qualification_Criteria_384.aspx . For the sum of SAT math and verbal in grades 7 to 10 they use 1220, 1310, 1350, and 1420 . Parents who think the DMT recommendations are too aggressive could consider these thresholds as guidelines.

Again, thanks for all of your kind replies! Bostonian, I took your suggestion and bought the developing math talent book. Thanks! Wondering...Would you use the same A,B,C level score ranges to determine programing options for the other subjects as well (reading, science, English..)??? Hmmmmm.....

I find the DMT suggestions a bit generous in advancement, so I'm not sure I'd extend them fully to the other subjects. Each subtest has a different mean and range of scores too, so a high science score is much more common than a high math score.

English mostly tests grammar and sentence structure. It doesn't follow, for me, that a student who recognizes poor structure in a multiple-choice format can write very well when asked. If the score matching writing, then acceleration would make more sense.

Science doesn't really test science knowledge, but rather science reasoning -- whether a child can interpret a graph, understand what an experiment would test for, etc. Scoring well there doesn't mean that a child is ready for high school science if you think that there is meaningful content in middle school science. I never thought there was meaningful science content in middle school since my child read science texts all the time and had self-taught anything relevant already.

And for reading, scoring well indicates a level of close reading and vocabulary that seems more like math to me. Once you've got good skills in inferencing, understanding point-of-view, high-level vocabulary, etc., then I'm not sure what benefit 5th or 6th grade literacy would provide. There are always more books to read, but it is much more satisfying to have higher level concepts for someone capable of higher level thought and appreciating subtlety.

I read through this thread a couple of times and may start my own thread to further the discussion. However, I'd like to ask those who have responded: what are your thoughts about PG middle schoolers taking community college classes instead of honors High School classes? If you can only advocate for one option, which would be best? I hear you speaking about some high school classes not really having more content--but the output level is huge. Would college courses offer the content as well as a "grouped" environment. Would "Marine Biology" at a college level actually be a class that a PG 12 year old would benefit from? I homeschool and am seriously looking into these options. Thanks for the thoughts.

Take this with a grain of salt b/c my oldest dd (12 -- 13 in the fall) is just starting high school in the fall so I don't have experience with high school courses. She is HG, but not PG (would have just barely made the DYS cut on the ACT for a 7th grader this past year, for instance, but she was an 8th grader). It's funny that you mention marine biology, though, b/c that's my dd12's passion! I do very much think that she could pull off college science and language arts courses and do very well in them. She could not do math courses and probably some other courses at a college level yet.

If I was looking @ primarily homeschooling her through high school, I'd probably be more inclined to have her supplemental courses be through a community college rather than a high school. I'm saying that b/c high school AP classes purport to be at a college level and I think that the college courses and students would be a better fit for the depth a HG (or, in your instance, PG) teen would want/need.

And, not in response to your post, but I just noticed this older one...

My dd10 still hits the C criteria for math even with those stricter guidelines and I still don't think she needs more than single subject acceleration in math. If she were at the high end of the C criteria, not already young for grade, someone who fit the mold of a school system better, etc. maybe I'd feel differently, though.

I guess that we're going with having her do 7th grade math in 6th grade and seeing how she does and whether she moves fast as she moves into higher level math. We can adjust from there. Maybe she'll need more; maybe she'll need less.

Covenantcasa,
I think the answer about whether high school honors or AP classes or community college classes would be a better fit depends to a great extent at what the high school and the community college are like. Our local area is full of professionals and tech people, and has lots of high-performing kids aiming for Ivys and top-20 schools, and has a high proportion of students who take AP classes making top scores on the AP exams. AP classes here are very likely at least as rigorous as an average CC course. We also have a strong articulation agreement with the CC system, and have a lot of students doing dual-enrollment for high school credit, so whichever option we chose, my child would probably have a fair number of the gifted high school kids in the class. In an area where the CC is not drawing heavily from the local gifted high school population, CC classes might be even less challenging than the corresponding tracked high school course.