Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment Help with advocacy...

Hi... I'm looking for some advice.
We had dd8 tested last year because she was having some school problems. Her fsiq on the Wisc IV was138, GAI 141. Peabody and K-Bit were146 and 143. Her nwea scores are always 95th-99th %ile across the board. She took Explore this year through Numats and did well with that too, all 68th %ile and up. Numats sends an educational plan and recommended acceleration/enrichment, planning for Alg 2 and geometry in 7th/8th.
Dd took the cogat a few weeks ago and qualified for gt reading but not math. They use the cogat only for qualification. The mensa children's coordinator recommended a grade skip last year. We opted not to do it because dd would have missed a fantastic 3rd grade teacher. Should I push for a skip now because she doesn't qualify for the gt program? The gt coordinator isn't very nice, but I am requesting a meeting. I will move dd elsewhere if necessary. Any suggestions appreciated.

It might be helpful to gently and tactfully remind the school that it is generally accepted that no one test event should be the diagnostic determinant of whether or not a child has some learning difference. Just as school achievement data, teacher observations, classroom performance, parent reports, and outside testing should be considered when looking at eligibility and placement decisions regarding learning disabilities, they should be taken into account when looking at the possibility of other learning differences that require different teaching approaches, such as giftedness. Your child has reams of data, much of it more reliable than the CogAT, that support that she is both capable of achieving at a high level and that her reasoning abilities are more advanced than her typical age peers and fall well into the gifted range, 2.5 to 3 standard deviations above the mean.

If it were me, with a child with these scores, I'd probably push for both a skip *and* inclusion in the GT program - it isn't as if she is going to stop being "gifted" just by virtue of being in a class with kids a few months older than she is. You have achievement data from the EXPLORE that shows she is already achieving at a higher level than the average 8th grader, after all.

What are her NWEA MAP scores? (I mean the actual scores, not the percentile ranks.) Because they can be compared across grade levels,and relate directly to skills being taught, they are frequently helpful to make the case that a child should be placed into a classroom with peers who have comparable scores.

I'd also suggest using the Iowa Acceleration Scales to provide an objective way of determining whether she is a good candidate. Then it is not so much you pushing against the school for a skip, but the school acting on objective data that support this educational decision.

Do any of her index scores meet the Davidson Young Scholars requirements? If she qualifies for the DYS program, they will help you advocate with the school.

Thanks ladies... Here's some more info.
Her Math on the Explore was 13. DYS requires 14 in Math, so she's close. It was 68th %ile for third graders. Her English scores qualify for DYS, but her math was one point short, and her Composite was 14, DYS requires 15. IQ also falls just short. A DYS advocate would be great, but dd falls right on the line. I haven't really pushed the issue. I figure if she's that close, she may qualify at some point in her life with an achievement test or maybe if we ever re-test her IQ.

I'm more concerned about meeting her school needs for next year. Looking at the big picture (all of the data), I don't think regular 3rd grade math will be the right decision. She dislikes math, specifically the arithmetic part of math... I think the slower the pace, the more she'll dislike it. And I don't want her to hate math. Her math NWEA score that I have was from last spring (spring 2nd grade). It was 210. I'm pretty sure that her fall score was 99th %ile. I want to say it was 214, but I don't have a copy of it. I'm an educator myself... So, I'm trying to focus objectively, solely on the data. Data driven instruction, right?

Oh, and also, the Cogat scores are not released the parents. Although, I expect that I can diplomatically demand them. I have a right to access her records... All we received in the mail was a letter that she qualified for reading. I serve on the committee and the explanation for this was that parents would have a hard time interpreting the scores... Hmm.

Dear Momtogirls,
Do you feel comfortable sharing what kind of school problems were occuring and if they have been resolved and to what extent.

Also - how many minutes a week is the gifted program. How much of an better fit is it over the regular program? Does your DD need a skip AND to be in the gifted program. It just plain doesn't make sense that the school is offering a skip but denying the gifted program. (And yet we hear this from time to time.)

For better or for worse, there is no magic formula that says, "This score needs X accommodation." So the idea is to look at what the issues are for a particular child, what the resources are for a particular school and how to fit the puzzle pieces together (over time.)

Love and more Love,
Grinity

We were having issues with attention, which is the whole reason I had her tested in the first place. She was daydreaming and "ignoring" what was going on in the classroom. She can be overly focused at times though... try getting her attention when she's reading Harry Potter. She's also a bit scatterbrained... She would forget her head if it wasn't attached. That has gotten a lot better this year. She has a teacher who gives her projects, jobs to do, etc. They've worked on keeping the desk clean, remembering homework, etc. I wouldn't say she is super organized and attentive now, but much better than she was last year.

No ADD according to the psych. In his words, "What's going on inside her head is much more interesting to her than what goes on in second grade." I was also concerned about Asperger's because of the over-focusing/obsessing about topics that interest her, and her lack of a social "filter" with her peers. He said no to that also because she is affectionate and socially appropriate with adults. According to the psych, all of her problems were typical GT problems, not a deficit or disorder. She's also the youngest in her class. She barely made the cutoff for K.
We discussed a skip last year with her principal. We opted not to do it because she would have missed out on this particular teacher. It has been a fantastic year, so looking back I'm glad we didn't skip. I also do think about her age/maturity, and her size. She is tiny. But, I'm thinking if she won't qualify for GT services in math, then maybe we re-investigate the skip. I haven't talked with anyone about a skip this year.

Does this give a better picture? I'm just not sure what to ask for. I don't want to put her in a situation where she'll struggle too much, but a little bit of struggle would be good for her. She's had straight A's all year with little effort on her part.

Thanks for all the good advice-

What were the qualifications and experience of the psych you used? Not to scare you, but we had people tell us "bright but quirky" about our DS (now 8 with Asperger's) for years before we finally found someone who understood that his quirks amounted to Asperger's. Knowing this has made a big difference in our ability to tailor his education.

Neither being affectionate nor being socially appropriate with adults rules out an Asperger's diagnosis; this is what makes me ask about the qualifications. AS is usually missed in girls; they often seem dreamy when they're really disconnected.

DeeDee

He has an extensive special education background. And, we've seen lots of improvements when she was given a more appropriate educational situation, so I think he was probably right about her quirkiness.

I'm not sure where this will all go, but I just really feel that doing nothing for math would be a mistake. She can be inconsistent with math, but I think the ability is clearly there. She dislikes arithmetic, math facts, etc., but loves geometry and problem solving type of things.

What worries me the most is 'will you be able to hand pick next years teacher.' For lots of kids a great teacher really can make the year sing. Especially if the school will 'pepper' the classroom with the closest to peer possible.

I'm totally not buying the 'no gifted program' and think that if you keep going up the chain of command, that someone-somewhere will let her in. Will that be enough if you get a 'mere mortal' teacher next year? Possibly not. The best way to know is to sit in and observe what is going on in the gifted classrooms for English and Math.

Make sure to read through http://www.accelerationinstitute.org/Nation_Deceived/Get_Report.aspx
and see if you still feel that physical size is so important to grade placement. It sounds like your DD really thrives in interesting classrooms, so to my ear, the challenge is to get her into interesting classrooms in a variety of ways: Possible skip, gifted classes, outstanding teachers, groups peers - use whatever materials you have on hand.

In my experience the difference between a good teacher and a great teacher is huge for an HG kid, particularly one who has had trouble in the past being compliant with the school expectations. It may be that she can't or it may be that she isn't motivated for very good reasons, but like my son, she needs the environment to meet her a little more than half way.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Thank you, Grinity, for saying what I've been thinking but couldn't put into words...
We are meeting with dd's current teacher today to look at all of her info. She also has great insight into how she is in the classroom and what she does. We're hoping to come up with a plan of action.
When I spoke with Meg's teacher a few minutes ago, she suggested that all of this needs to go to the superintendent in an appeals process. At this point though, I feel like we need to solidify exactly what it is that we're asking for. Maybe the gt program isn't the right thing, maybe acceleration is, maybe online courses? Not sure what to do at this point. I'm hoping that we can come up with some more ideas today.
Thanks for all of your help.