Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment What to do with the numbers?

I am a first time poster hoping for some input. We recently had our 6yoDS tested. He is in first grade and very bored in school. Seeing the repetitive nature of the work he brings home, I am not surprised by his boredom. He took the WISC IV with the following results:

Verbal Comprehension - 144
Perceptual Reasoning - 137
Working Memory - 110
Processing Speed - 73
FSIQ - 126
GAI - 150

As you can you see his scores are all over the place. He does not exhibit any signs of LD. The psych who administered the test seemed to think that by offering him a more challenging curriculum, he will overcome his impulsivity and learn to concentrate more. He did not think that DS has ADD, but now I am wondering.

DS is very well adjusted socially, is a natural leader within the group, but won't be the person to gather the group. He is loving and has many interests outside of school. He plays sports, loves music and rides his bike whenever he can.

As I have read the postings on this board, I see that many people here have a tremendous amount of knowledge. I am hoping you can throw some of that my way and offer some thoughts.

Thanks,
momof5

His score pattern isnt unusual. He is whoppingly gifted...the processing speed might be a bottleneck or a red herring. Did the tester say anything about it? Have you asked for a meeting with the teacher to discuss the 'readiness level' mismatch problem? We never use the B word.
Best wishes
Grinity

Thank you for responding Grinity. The tester thought the low processing score was the result of DS's impulsivity in answering, using his first reaction, without thinking. He believes that if DS is exposed to challenging work on a consistent basis, he would learn to concentrate more effectively and answer less impulsively.

I have been speaking to his classroom teacher since the beginning of the school year, but not since we got the testing scores. I have a meeting scheduled next week with the teacher, principal and school psychologist. This is all new to me and, to be honest, I am not exactly sure what I should be asking for. If anyone can offer ideas it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
momof5

Both my dds have similar VCI scores and their needs in a classroom are completely different.

Where is he academically? What kind of things can he do? Is he showing what he is capable of in the classroom or not?

Maybe one thing you could ask for is some sort of achievement testing. Some schools will do that if somebody requests it. That would give everybody more information and help you out as you decide how to proceed.

The other thing that I would do, before the meeting, is to gather information about the SD gifted program. What kind of programs are offered? How are students selected? Do they have self-contained or pull-outs? What grade does it start? Do they accept outside testing? If there is a person listed in charge, you can contact that coordinator and see what they can suggest or do.

I'm going to guess that you don't have a gifted program, or else the gifted coordinator would be at the meeting. If you do, goal one is to learn what they offer.

First meeting is to explain what the problem is. Explain your idea of 'readiness level' (material that is challenging enough, but not overly challenging) explain that the psychologist found behavior X, and Y and feels that to correct this problem your son needs exposure to learning that is inside his readiness level.

Ask the school how they would determine what your child's readiness level is. (In Parallel, do a bit of afterschooling, Aleks.com, reading books and talking about them, google books he likes to read and the word 'lexile' to track his reading level, read 6+1 writing traits to see where he is with writing, to get your own idea of what your son is like as a learner. So you know what to believe)

The oldest miscommunication is that when they achievement test him they stop a grade level or two above the current grade level, thinking, "why bother, we aren't going to provide services at this level so we won't need to test." If possible discuss this in advance that you want them to test all the way up to where the work requires effort and consentration - you want him to learn good work ethic,and get used to a bit of mild struggle like any other child, and that takes daily practice.

So first you identify the problem,(bordome, not used to consentrating, you can even try saying that you are afraid that never learning to settle down and work at school might cause him to become ADHD-like, if that's true) then you investigate the nature and dimensions of the problem. Once his readiness level is discovered in great detail, then (at a future meeting) you can come up with a range of ideas to try to correct the problem. Then you try the most likely to help ideas one by one until you see that your son puts a small but constant effort into learning, just like the other kids do.

I would say that it's possible that the psychologist is 100% correct, but until you get your son into that 'readiness level' environment, how will you really know if ADHD is a problem or not? This is the route we went. First fix the environment, then take another look at the kid.

BTW, if you can get the psychologist to attend the meeting and make your case for you, even by phone, you are likely to get better cooperation. They are - afterall - the expert.

It is ok to ask the school psychologist pointed questions:
What percent of kids in this school have GAI 150 or higher, like my son?
What percentage of kids in this school have a spread between GAI and processing speed of 70 points or more like my son?
Who does the school go to for help and experince with situations that are unsual?

If the school tries to tell you that they can't tell you an exact number of kids with GAI like your kid because they don't want to reveal anyone else's scores, assure them you don't want names or exact numbers, just a ballpark. Say that you would expect they only see GAI like that about once every 3 years, is that correct?

Schools usually don't have much of an idea of what is 'similar' when it comes to IQ test scores. Is GAI 150 'closes enough' to 140? 130? 120? We were told that in the middle school there would be 'handfulls' of kids like my kid. Similar is a relative term. If you can get the school on board with 'this situation is different, we have to learn more, observe closely, try new things' then you are one your way.

Remember that this is the first step on a long journey.

Smiles,
Grinity

Thank you both for your responses. Our SD does have a gifted program. It is a two hour, once a week pull-out where they work on a science project. While it is better than nothing, there are still many hours each week that need to be filled with a challenging curriculum. To be accepted to the GT program, a child needs an IQ of 125 or higher. I am not sure if they accept outside testing, but will find out soon! The kids took the OLSATs a few weeks ago and the results are expected in mid-December. The school also did some sort of math achievement test, the results of which will also be back in a few weeks. I plan to register for the sites that Grinity suggested to see where he is on my own.

In kindergarten, DS was reading on a third grade level and he loves creative writing. He likes to do math, but not on paper, only in his head. That does not play well with the first grade teacher who likes the kids to cross out the circles when doing simple subtraction problems. He is interested in science. He recently asked to learn chemistry, so we went to the library and he is learning about chemistry. There is not one specific area where he shines. I can say that without a doubt that he is a deep thinker. His thought processes are so much different than his peers and I could see how it would get old for him.

We have a private GT school in our area and we are considering it. The cost is very high though. I have also been going to see all of the private schools in our area trying to determine if we can find a good fit without going to GT school route. The first step is to see if we can make him fit were he is.

Grinity, your very specific ideas and questions are very helpful to me. If you have any others that pop up, please feel free to share again. Same goes for anyone else.

Thanks again,
momof5

Happy to be helpful - I would stongly recommend that you sit and observe the various private school options - the hype is the hype, but watching the teachers tells you so much.

Hopefully the school will figure out some 'little' ways to make it all work. The GT pullout is fine, but not really going to solve your problem. Maybe the kids who have been identified from older grades can act as buddys for certian activities.

Best wishes,
Grinity

The pullout might have the sole benefit of identifying more possible peers for him. It really will not even come close to enough for him.

Some private gifted schools are a mess and some are pretty good in that teachers understand the needs and challenges of their student body. Some seem to want everybody to fit on a certain mold, while others will understand how asynchronous and uneven the children can be. The social benefits of being with children more similar to him might be worth exploring. In any case, I would ask the school how many HG++ students they have. Well established schools might have good financial aid packages (need based).

Just in case he didn't do as well on the OLSAT, I'd go prepared with some info on how individual ability tests are a better measure of intelligence and don't let them tell you that the OLSAT is an IQ test; it isn't. I certainly wouldn't bring up the fact that the OLSAT and IQ don't correlate fabulously for gifted kids if the scores aren't in yet, but I'd be prepared with that in case.

Here's a link from Hoagie's to get you started on that, should you need it: http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/tests_tell_us.htm

"...However, a small study noted a potential problem with the OLSAT and very gifted children. While the correlation between group and individual intelligence tests is quite high for average scores, in this study that correlation almost disappeared for gifted scores. This means that while an average child will score very similarly on a group IQ test and an individual IQ test, a gifted child may not score similarly at all. And the study suggests that this group test may even result in a negative correlation for some gifted children: the more gifted the child, the lower the group ability test score!..."

While this quote refers to the OLSAT as a group IQ test, I'd be cautious of applying the term "intelligence quotient" to a group test. This group , obviously, isn't the ultimate expert, but I'd agree with their note that, "We've heard the OLSAT� referred to as a school ability test, a cognitive ability test or an IQ test. Your child's OLSAT� test score will give you an idea of how smart they are but it isn't an IQ score. An IQ test, such as the WISC� or Stanford-Binet�, done one on one with a psychologist is a much more comprehensive, and accurate, test of cognitive ability." If you call Pearson, they'd say much the same & they also publish the WISC.

A 25 point spread is huge and that is the difference between your son and the minimum entrance criterion for the GT program. It is likely that the majority of the kids in this program fall closer to the 125 end than the 150 end. That would be like saying that you can place those 125 kids in with kids who are in the 50th percentile (100) and expect that their educational and social needs will be the same.

Is the two hour/week pull-out all that is offered throughout the entire district or is that just at the one school he attends? Different schools in our local districts have different program and levels of service, for instance. Is subject acceleration an option at his school?

Thanks you Cricket2 for the info about the OLSATs. I have actually been wondering how ds is going to do on the test because he tends to rush through things he sees as simple and ends up making silly mistakes. It is part of the reason I decided to have him tested privately.

The two hour per week pull-out is a district-wide program. The kids who meet the criteria are bussed from each of the grammar schools to a separate school where the program takes place. We live in NY which I have come to learn is not a gifted-friendly state. Our district boasts about having this program because many of the other SDs in the area have nothing. I am not sure is subject acceleration is a possibility or not. It is one of the things I plan to ask about at my meeting next week.

As I said in an earlier post, I have been looking at private schools in the area. At his point I have been to almost everything but the gifted school. I do plan to go, but want to see everything else first. Today I went to a Montessori school with a very strong academic program. I went with the expectation that I would hate it, but was very impressed. Has anyone had any experience with Montessori school...positive or negative?

Thanks,
momof5