Jbell281, Welcome!

You've received great advice already, here and here.

I believe that for new members, the first 5 post are held for moderation - they do not appear immediately. This can be confusing for new members. Yet it is important to follow board rules and not hijack a thread. To address your questions about how to determine whether your children are gifted, the definitive answer would be found in the results of IQ testing. IQ test results tend to stabilize around 8 years old, however children are often tested earlier if there is a pressing need. Here is a brief roundup of links on IQ testing:
1) How much error can there be in IQ test scores?
2) Hoagies list of Psychologists familiar with Testing the Gifted and Exceptionally Gifted
3) Test prep articles - one by Aimee Yermish, one by Nadia Webb
4) Hoagies list of comparative IQ scores: Highly, Exceptionally, Profoundly Gifted

Meanwhile, lists of characteristics of gifted children and lists of ages at which gifted children may reach developmental milestones may help indicate whether your children are gifted. Here is a roundup of lists of behavioral characteristics:
1) Characteristics of intellectually advanced young people
2) NAGC's list borrowed from the book A Parent's Guide to Gifted Children
3) Characteristics and Behaviors of the Gifted
4) Characteristics checklist for gifted children
5)Tips for Parents: Helping Parents Understand Their Profoundly Gifted Children
6) Profiles of the gifted and talented which lists 6 different types, categorized by personality/temperament and achievement.

Other important concepts to be acquainted with, when considering identification of gifted kids who may present differently:

1) Gifted kids may exhibit asynchronous development.

2) Gifted kids may also have a learning disability. When this occurs, the kids are called twice exceptional or 2e. IMO, some of the saddest stories are those in which a kiddo's "quirks" were dismissed or accepted by parents until the child was older and struggling (socially and/or academically and/or with organization and/or time management). I say sad because if these "quirks" had been correctly identified as a learning disability earlier, there are many remediation helps and accommodations available to assist the kids with their development.

3) The opportunities available to a child may play a role in being able to easily identify a child as gifted... examples in this old post.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. My boys are 11 and 9. I never cared whether they were gifted or just bright but I stumbled across this page while looking for map scores. Their scores were very high according to school but much lower than most on here I believe. My oldest (11) lexile in September was 987-1137 with a map score of 227. My 9 year old had lexile is 825-975 with map of 218 in January. Both. It's obviously straight A's and in gifted pull out. But is this gifted or just bright. Just curious as they get older to make sure I push for what they need appropriately

You are very welcome. Hope you stick around. This is THE place for parents to learn about gifted kids. Free and accessible to all.

Here's an old thread on lexile levels. In the Recommended Resources forum, the list of books for ages 9-12 may be of interest.

Difficult to know without IQ testing, and in many ways it does not matter, as long as the child's needs are being met. This would include not only academic growth and achievement, but also having academic/intellectual peers, and developing study skills, etc. Did the school conduct IQ testing as part of the qualification for their gifted program? If so, parents are entitled to a copy of the results.

Some say the "optimal" IQ is 120-125. Higher IQ than that (gifted 132+) is more rare (2% of the population). The higher one's IQ, the more rare in the population... the less familiar a school may be with these kiddos... and the more difficult it may be to find academic/intellectual peers.

The advocacy thread may be of interest... start reading now as there is a LOT of information to cover.
Too often parents wait until they are in the midst of a crisis and a meeting has been scheduled...

Did you request IQ testing for your children?

In general, parents do not need to request IQ testing from their school. The process would typically work like this:

Many schools provide some form of tests given to all students which may be used as screeners, such as CogAT (Cognitive Abilities Test).

Based on the results of the screening tests, some schools may provide IQ tests to highest scoring pupils. You may wish to check your State policies for gifted education. You may also wish to check your school's policies. These are often found online, on the school website. You would be looking for anything on gifted programming, identification, qualification, etc.

Typically a school will send a letter home to inform parents that their child was recommended and/or qualified for and/or placed in a gifted program. The letter may tell more about the process, such as any tests/assessment administered to the student and the student's scores.

Many parents seek out private testing, for reasons such as:
- if the child is an "outlier" ... noticeably different academically and intellectually from same-age peers,
- when there is a strong mismatch with the school,
- if they suspect a possible 2e issue.

There are costs involved with private testing, and generally speaking insurance does not cover IQ testing unless it may be to identify a disability, such as a learning disability.

To minimize costs, some parents look for testing from their local university's Psych Department. However these individuals may not be familiar with gifted children.

Where I am testing is nearly always private. Even if you go through child and adolescent health services and they reccomend testing there is no funding since it falls is the gap between health funding and educational funding.

Do you need an IQ test? Some school districts use standardized testing for gifted programs. Starting middle school, my district automatically subject accelerates the top 10th percentile of students, and students in the top 10 percent in 2 subjects can get into the advanced STELM classes.

I went ahead and had private neuropsychology done, but the neuropsychologist was anti-grade skipping and wrote it into his report that my son should not be grade skipped. That was really bad for my son! I switched him to our district's virtual charter school that does continuous progress acceleration for every student and they didn't require any testing to subject accelerate 2 - 3 grades when he enrolled.

IQ testing didn't help me get my son any academic benefits because my district's policies are not set up using IQ testing as criteria for advancement. However, IQ testing did identify my son has ADHD, so it was immensely valuable.

I was attending gifted education seminars and participating in forums before his IQ tests. If the shoe fits, wear it. Parents are better at identifying academically advanced children than teachers are. Trust yourself and keep learning with an open mind.

My oldest started school reading chapter books. At 5 he was also a summer birthday boy so expectations were not high. He blew them away with how quickly and easily he learned. So in K they taught him to play chess. In second grade he was formally identified because he was reading at least 2 years ahead and was at least 1 year ahead in math (that's school criteria).
My younger son was identified in first. Also several years ahead in reading and math. I am curious whether they are just bright students or Gallo to gifted. My boys are opposites in every way except are both exceptional students and are both left handed. It's interesting. If I ask for IQ tests what reason do you give?

Are you interested in private, professional testing? Typically, parents don't ask a school for IQ tests... unless your State laws have something in them about IQ tests for identification of gifted pupils and/or your school policies have something in them about IQ tests for identification of gifted pupils.

Have you checked your State laws, as recommended upthread?
Have you checked your school policies, as recommended upthread?
If you checked your State laws and school policies, do they provide a basis for requesting the school to administer IQ tests?

As others have asked, what IS your reason? As you've not alluded to your sons facing any particular educational difficulties, but have mentioned your personal curiosity about the matter, some may wonder whether you are interested in the perceived novelty of a gifted label?

I think if it was novelty I would have done it years ago. I am deciding whether to put my oldest in private or public school for middle school next year.

IQ tests are only generally given for low students. Not high.

You might like this article. It shows generalized behavioral differences between high achievers (good students) and high intelligence. http://www.bertiekingore.com/high-gt-create.htm.

In general, children who have "enriched environment" in preschool years - that is to say children who are advanced because they had a head start being taught academics - will "regress to the mean" by 2nd grade. That's why so many gifted programs in schools don't start until 2nd or 3rd grades! They're trying to prevent accelerating children who will not be able to maintain advancement.

If your children are past 2nd grade, more than a year advanced, and the school has already identified them as gifted, I think you can trust that they are advanced. If your children's intellectual needs are met with their current program, no further testing needs to be done.

It's quite common for parents to experience denial about their child's abilities! I am just beginning to be able to admit to myself how advanced my son is. Even on this board I often underestimate or understate. I am stuck in my mind believeing initial (incorrect) testing and saying he is "moderately gifted" when he's actually "extremely gifted". I have trouble seeing him for who he is and not what the tests have said. I appreciate how IQ testing gives me confidence in the schooling decisions I've made, but I don't like how much it puts people into categories and how easily I get stuck thinking about how people within a category "should" be. I get stuck thinking "extremely gifted children should have XYZ trait" and when I don't see it in my son I get a little insecure. Had I not tested, I wouldn't struggle internally. However, had I not had him tested, his ADHD wouldn't have been diagnosed and he wouldn't have appropriately challenging schoolwork. The benefit outweighs the negatives for me, but I always encourage people to think about what IQ testing might achieve for their families before requesting it.

I am not familiar with requesting IQ testing from a school district. The first time I had my son's private IQ testing done, I stated the reason was investigating if acceleration might be appropriate. The second time, I stated the reason was to see if his results aligned with his school acheivement. At the time I was concerned I was pushing him too much academically. I think the reason statements on the forms just guide them for what tests to administer.

Thank you for your response. Yes that's exactly what happened with my boys. Informally pulled out until 2nd grade and then classified gifted and talented. I am a teacher myself but I teach K ina different district and we do things differently. I have a daughter as well in K but she is an average student I could swear my oldest has ADHD but it has never affected him at school but he can not sit still!! Studying with him is the worst. I have asked teachers and they said he fidgets a lot but it does not interrupt his work.
There are magnet programs available for middle school and high school that I would like to look into. My husband is not as interested. We are big into sports and he wants them to have a normal high school experience and I want them to get the best education possible.

You could ask the private school(s) if they honor the district's identification of gifted/talented. You can ask for their written acceleration policy. You might need further testing - might not. I think you'll find more answer in each school's polices and in your state's educational laws than you'll find in your children's IQ scores.

IQ testing may become of value if you find that a school's gifted/talented program is not enough. GT programs are usually designed for the "high achieving" student, and an extremely or profoundly gifted child is still going to find the pace is too slow and the material too easy. This is where determining "how gifted" a child is can help in advocating for further academic challenge.

According to your list they fall more under gifted. They do not study or put in any work. It comes easy to them but eventually the time will come where they have to study.

Private/independent schools typically have students sit for admissions exams and/or placement exams... often called ERB. These are achievement tests, not IQ tests. You may want to check the policies of any private schools under consideration.

Thank you. My younger son has had some behavior issues in the past. I think related to boredom but this year has been wonderful. His other teachers didn't enjoy having someone who was 2 steps ahead but this teacher loves him. But next year may not be the same.

If you suspect any ADHD, that's a strong reason to do IQ testing. A discrepancy between specific subtest scores on the WISC-V test can indicate ADHD. (ADHD is a diagnosis of elimination, since sleep disorders and other conditions have overlapping symptom patterns.) My son's teachers in elementary school scored him very low on ADHD behavioral assessments and were convinced he was " a typical boy" who was "good at reading". I would not trust his classroom teacher's assessment. However, if your son's testing did not suggest ADHD, then you would likely find "psychomotor overexcitability" to be an interesting theory. (The work it's from is outdated and not evidence-based, and the overexcitability concept is plucked grossly out of context, but it's still an accessible way to discuss differences in the way people experience the world.)

If sports are a big part of family, you might ask potential schools about subject acceleration versus grade-skip acceleration. Advanced children who are active in sports generally fare very well emotionally in school, and acceleration may limit the number of years he could participate in sports. Subject acceleration might meet his academic needs without limiting his access to peers and sports.

My husband is also of the opinion "just put them in normal public school" and he's just starting to figure out that's not going to work. It's tough to deal with that type of conflict. Raising advanced children is tough work, making education decisions is often gut-wrenching, and to do it with a skeptical spouse makes everything more intense. I feel for you there!

Huge red flag! Here's why: What Kids Don't Learn.

Yes I am concerned that no study skills will develop. If you read something once and know it it's hard to learn to study I am happy about the straight a's but it's. It the same as if they had earned them through studying, hard work, or effort. My older son stumbled a bit this year with organization but seems to have the hang of it now.

The sooner they get to that point, the better off they are! Maybe indigo will chime in with some links and resources here?

Letting children skate through school without learning to study is not doing them any favors. They're losing opportunities to learn essential life skills and build their grit and confidence.

My childhood and young adult story is devastating - mostly because I never learned the essential life skills from overcoming academic challenges. I took a college writing class last fall and realized in a panic I hadn't learned anything about english or writing since 4th or 5th grade. I was an anxious mess for the whole class, nearly withdrew, and did not expect to pass the class. I did - with 100%, actually. But it was an unpleasant experience! It's not fun to be learning basic study skills in my 30's. It's not fun to have my husband with a graduate degree, my cousins getting their masters degrees and PhD's, my siblings getting PhDs, my sister-in-law and cousin have university teaching positions and I'm over here like "Today I swept the floor 3 times, cleaned up poop and vomit, and my baby screamed at me for 45 minutes because I didn't let him eat the entire 2# box of strawberries." I'm a stay-at-home mom *because* I can't do much of anything else *because* I didn't have opportunity to learn how to learn when I was a child. It burns. Every day.

The sooner you can provide your children challenging academics, the better off they will be.

Haha, I'm slow at typing. I see indigo already put the link up. You're awesome indigo! Thank you!

My education goal for my children is to keep them at the level where they have to work at it. My son breezed through Algebra 1. Wouldn't most parents be ecstatic? I wasn't. I was concerned what he missed. He's doing Algebra 2 now. He has been getting about 50% right the first time through the lesson. I AM ECSTATIC NOW! Because he has finally met his match. He's finally doing math at a level where he can't do it in his head. He's finally learning the necessity of checking his work. He's finally challenged enough that he needs - and is willing to do the amount of - repetition necessary to master the material.

I've seen some parents are conflicted because they want their children to learn, but they also want their children to get good grades. Those don't necessarily go together.

LOL! I was thinking the same thing about you, sanne! Jbell281 is getting great info.

PS. Remember, there is a roundup of links on frequent forum topics, which is great for quick reference. I added the excellent Bertie Kingore link...

With you. When we switched the oldest to homeschooling, I told the children outright that my goal for them was to score in the 80%s on summative assessments, as an indication that their instruction was both challenging and achievable (aka, in the ZPD). We went through periods of much lower formative assessments, as they also wrestled through learning to study, show work, self-monitor, organize, etc.

One of the beauties of home schooling is that one can decide on one's own grading system. Having used Singapore Math throughout (including in secondary), we also adopted the grading system used in many Singapore classrooms for our math courses, which includes much more challenging problem-solving on assessments, but also sets 80% as the minimum score for an A+. This allows us to have both ZPD and "good" grades.

Just to clarify, because the "parents are better at identifying gifted children" meme is often misquoted and often misunderstood: this goes back to a specific study (I'm sure someone on this board, probably indigo, can dig it up) in which parents and teachers were given specific questionnaires *designed* to identify gifted children. The parents' questionnaires were better at predicting giftedness than the teachers', but this could just as well mean parents simply knew their children better and in a bigger variety of contexts. It is NOT about gut feeling.
And teachers are usually excellent at recognizing *academically* advanced children, assessing children's academics is what they do all day, and they have a much bigger sample to compare children to, as opposed to the parents, who are more likely to say in bewilderment "but I thought that was normal, all children in my family have been like that!".
The problem is that intellectual giftedness doesn't always manifest in advanced academics, of course, for various reasons. And some teachers, of course, are wilfully blind.

Teachers are excellent at picking up bright high achievers but they don't usually have time to have in depth conversations and identify those who think deeply etc. My kid's daycare teachers identified them not me or tge school.

Sorry, the study which you mentioned does not sound familiar.

What I am familiar with is anecdotal evidence (observation and experience) of parents correctly identifying their own children as gifted more accurately than teachers did. This seemed to be related to "parents simply knew their children better and in a bigger variety of contexts. It is NOT about gut feeling. And teachers are usually excellent at recognizing *academically* advanced children, assessing children's academics is what they do all day".

That said, parents may run the gamut from false negative: denial or "bewilderment "but I thought that was normal, all children in my family have been like that!" to false positive: hot-housing and tiger-parenting average children in hopes of achieving a coveted "gifted" label.

"The problem is that intellectual giftedness doesn't always manifest in advanced academics, of course, for various reasons. And some teachers, of course, are wilfully blind." Agreed.

That doesn't sound familiar to me. I did read a piece about parent identification of gifted children that used the nominator (parent or teacher) versus the child's IQ score. The parents were correct in their guess, if my memory is correct - about 75% of the time, with teachers only have about 25% accuracy. Of course, I did not note the source, perhaps this will sound familiar to someone else with better memory than I have?

Same thing here.

There is a nice review of the literature in the introduction to this journal article (on Australian students), including research, largely from the '70s, that found teachers to be about 10-50% accurate (depending on the way accuracy was measured) at ID'ing GT children, while parents were about 50-96% accurate.

Note that the research is mostly on preschool and kindergarten-age students.

http://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ750772.pdf

This is the key article generally cited:

https://www.researchgate.net/public...d_children_as_a_function_of_school_level

Well, that definitely supports sannes wording rather than mine.
Now I'm trying to think where I read what I read...this link from hoagies might be it, or not...
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/identification.htm
Parents are the best source of information about their children's abilities by John Worthington
"Parents are a highly accurate and reliable source of information about their children's intelligence and abilities with most able to predict their child's IQ to within a few points, according to a University of Queensland PhD study..." Also see A Longitudinal Study of Early Literacy Development and the Changing Perceptions of Parents and Teachers

I think this is great. There are so many different ways of knowing something... many different sources for learning something... a plethora of resources which inform our views.

It is interesting when they all seem to agree, and indicate the same result, as in this case.

BTW, it is my understanding that this is the reason why use of screeners for all pupils is generally recommended over teacher recommendation for gifted programs/services.

Jbell281, did you find a way to start a new thread? If not, here's a quick point in the right direction... two different ways to start a new thread:

Starting a new thread from the main page
- From the main page, see the list of forums. There are 10 forums:
1) Thinking BIG About Gifted Education
2) Parenting and Advocacy
3) Identification, Testing, & Assessment
4) Recommended Resources
5) Twice Exceptional
6) GT Research
7) Learning Environments
8) General Discussion
9) Age or Ability Specific Forums
10) Regions
- Click to select the forum which most closely matches the topic you have in mind. The forum will present a list "sticky" topics, followed by a list of the most recent topics.
- Toward the upper left-hand corner, two tabs are displayed.
- Click the tab which says "New Topic" to start a new thread.

Starting a thread from any post
Alternate path to creating a new thread:
- When reading any post, scroll to the top of the page.
- Toward the upper left-hand corner, two tabs are displayed.
- Click the tab which says "Topic Options".
- From the drop-down menu of Topic Options, click "New Topic" to start a new thread.

.



Two quick thoughts:
1) don't count out your daughter being gifted -- I thought mine was bright but pretty standard in K (did ask for harder math though); I always compared her to her brother's achievements and curiosity. Both kids ended up being tested, and her IQ scores were actually higher, LOL.
2) If fidgeting becomes at all disruptive, or you have adhd concerns, that may be a way to get the school to pay for testing... DS was tested (2nd grade) due to real concerns about OT issues, ADD, etc. DD was tested (2nd grade also) because she was having some behavior issues -- turns out she was just bored! The testing helps us be understanding, helps with advocacy (really, she truly needs more challenge, not just me being a hot-house parent!), and helps teachers understand where she's at a tiny bit (it also truly depends on the teacher... 3rd grade was fantastic due to teacher fit, 4th has been rocky).

You've gotten a ton of great info - I can't wait to go back through and thoroughly read some of these links! :-)