Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Identification, Testing & Assessment WISC-IV and SB-V scores: low VCI, any thoughts?

Hi..

This is my first posting, so please be patient. :-)

I have a few questions on testing. A little history first...

My son was tested by independent tester while on Kindergarten on WISC-IV and WJ-III at age 6.2. He pretty much had already mastered K subjects when he started, letters, colors, shapes, numbers, some math, reading at about 4 years old, etc. I tried entering him into K early and also advance him once in, without any luck (birthday in late Nov). Several schools since then, some good, some bad, lack of challenge, material too easy, behaviors triggered by boredom (most of them at least), etc.

Now he is 8.4 years old and he is in 2nd grade and I tried to advanced him to 3rd grade, since he can easily finish the 3rd grade at this point due to his academic level. This time I put my request on paper. School wanted to re-test; they did the SB-V and some achievement testing and results seem to be a lot lower than the scores of 2 years earlier. School used the testing to basically "un-gift" him and shut down advancement request to 3rd grade. They claimed his earlier scores were "inaccurate" due to his young age.

After meeting with a psychologist to address some self-esteem and behavior issues that the whole ordeal with the school has caused on him, psych suggested to retest. Independent tester used WISC-IV, WIAT-III and GORT-IV along many other behavioral scales and such. This time results were closer than those 2 years ago.

He has also been evaluated for ADHD (ruled out, he is active, but not ADHD hyper or inattentive), Asperger's (ruled out, but he does have some social deficiencies) and Sensory Integration Disorder (he does have this, mostly fine motor skills, gross motor skills, overwhelm by environment sounds and colors, bugging clothing tags, etc).

Finally, questions:

1. His verbal scores are significantly lower (even though still average or high average). At first testing they thought it was because of bilingual (at the time), now not so much. I think is due to reading fast and not taking time to find the meaning of words, or because of odd or creative thinking. His vocabulary might be limited because mine is, due to ESL, but he should be grasping it from school. Could this be a sign of a disability? I thought about Asperger's since I still think he has a mild case. Any thoughts?

2. Why is there so much difference between the WISC-IV score results and the SB-V score?

3. Does the difference between the WISC-IV scores at age 6.2 and the same test at age 8.3 seem right? Why would the PRI and the PSI basically switch around?

Thank you for any inputs. Please see all scores below.

--- IQ Testing ---

- WISC-IV at age 6.2 - FSIQ 129 (97 percentile)

VCI 102 (55 percentile)
Similarities - 11
Vocabulary - 9
Comprehension - 12

PRI 143 (99.8 percentile)
Block Design - 16
Picture Concepts - 16
Matrix Reasoning - 19

WMI 123 (94 percentile)
Digit Span - 11
Letter-Number Sequencing - 17
(Arithmetic - 13)

PSI 121 (92 percentile)
Coding - 12
Symbol Search - 15

- WISC-IV at age 8.3 - FSIQ 124 (95 percentile)

VCI 99 (47 percentile)
Similarities - 9
Vocabulary - 12
Comprehension - 9

PRI 121 (92 percentile)
Block Design - 13
Picture Concepts - 12
Matrix Reasoning - 15

WMI 123 (94 percentile)
Digit Span - 15
Letter-Number Sequencing - 13

PSI 138 (99 percentile)
Coding - 17
Symbol Search - 17

- SB-V at age 8.1 - FSIQ 111 (77 percentile)
(Performed by school)

NVIQ - 117 (87 percentile)
VIQ - 105 (63 percentile)

Factor Index Scores:
Fluid Reasoning - 123 (94 percentile)
Knowledge - 106 (66 percentile)
Quantitative Reasoning - 108 (70 percentile)
Visual Spatial - 117 (87 percentile)
Working Memory - 94 (34 percentile)

--- Achievement Testing ---

- WJ-III Achievement at age 6.2

Letter-Word Identification - 140 (99.6 percentile) (3.2 grade)
Passage Comprehension - 125 (95 percentile) (1.8 grade)
Calculation - 127 (96 percentile) (2.0 grade)
Applied Problems - 136 (99 percentile) (2.3 grade)
Spelling - 136 (99 percentile) (2.1 grade)
Writing Samples - 125 (95 percentile) (1.7 grade)
Academic Skills - 144 (99.8 percentile) (2.5 grade)
Academic Applications - 132 (98 percentile) (1.9 grade)

- WIAT-III at age 8.3

Sentence Composition - 129 (97 percentile) (8.9 grade)
Numerical Operations - 115 (71 percentile) (4 grade)
Math Fluency - Addition - 115 (84 percentile) (5.1 grade)
Math Fluency - Subtraction - 122 (93 percentile) (5.5 grade)
Spelling - 124 (95 percentile) (5.4 grade)

- GORT-IV at age 8.3

Reading Rate - 16 (98 percentile) (7 grade)
Reading Accuracy - 16 (98 percentile) (7 grade)
Reading Fluency - 17 (99 percentile) (7 grade)
Reading Comprehension - 13 (84 percentile) (4.7 grade)
Oral Reading Quotient - 130 (98 percentile)

- School also did some achievement testing at age 8.1, but results were not given to me. School claims that vocabulary scores were low, and that most scores were average, except for math, which was higher.

I am no help on testing, but I would strongly encourage you to get the book From Emotions to Advocacy. http://www.wrightslaw.com/bks/feta2/feta2.htm

And while there look around the Wrightslaw site. Good luck!

Here's a post with several links to articles that discuss the differences between the two tests:
http://giftedissues.davidsongifted....62/Re_any_fans_of_the_SB5.html#Post60162

There's a good discussion that follows.

Dandy

It is not unusual to have fluctuations in IQ scores at such an early age. I see a stable pattern between each WISC test - Strengths in non verbal reasoning (PRI) relative to verbal reasoning (VCI), and strong scores on skills associated with work output (WMI and PSI). Why did the PSI increase so much? Not sure - it relies heavily on solid visual motor and processing - and your child's scores on both subtests were very high. He seems to get work done quickly! His working memory is also very strong - again, my guess is that he can efficiently take in, understand and respond to new information. Not only are his thinking skills strong (VCI and PRI), but his ability to show what he knows is excellent.

I am less familiar with SB. But, looking at the scores, I notice a big difference in his working memory score between WISC and SB. (123/94% vs 94/34%) I'm not sure if the subtests measuring WM are very different between the two tests, or maybe he was just not on his game that day. Although the absolute numbers differ between the WISC and SB, the pattern of stronger non verbal skills compared to verbal still exists.

Comparing his achievement scores on the WJ to the WIAT, there is a bit of a drop. I don't know if this is a drop in his skill level relative to his peers, or a difference in the two tests and what/how they measure achievement. You mention that the school claims he has low vocabulary - I don't see test scores in this area.

Drangon's Mom,
I get that raising this kid has been hard, and that the school has not been able to build a working relationship with you - and I send compassion to you for both of these situations - I've been there.

But, if you can set that aside, lets look at the scores and see if there really is a big difference between the school's sores at age 8 and the private scores at age 8.

I put italics for the Verbal IQ and Bold for the Performance or Nonverbal IQ. Do you see that the Verbal IQ scores are the same for all 3 tests, and the Performance IQs are almost identical for both age 8 tests.

Processing speed and Working memory are important, but they just aren't felt to reflect intellectual strength. Every school lives in fear of skipping the wrong kid. What could be more 'the wrong kid' than a kid with great memory, well able to get their words out, but really a great fit with their agemates in terms of how deeply they are learning? That's the whole point of using IQ tests instead of just giving end of year tests and placing kids where they are shown to need to be. The IQ tests try and 'predict the future' to say, well at age 6 your child was certianly very advanced in his problem solving skills, but was he a fast developer, or is he on a course to develop an unusal level of intelligence.

I compare it to babies who may be very tall at 6 months old, and at the 90th percentile, but have shorter than average parents. Is the kid going to keep growing at that rate, or is it just a precosious growth that will slowly and gently head back to his family norm over the next 20 years. I know kids from each catagory.

You might say that there is a third possibility, that the child who starts of tall with short parents is meant to be tall, but was under poor growth conditions, and is now short because of an environmental problem. And by analogy, all those years at school could certianly have had a negative effect on your boy's problem solving ability. But then when one looks at the average Verbal IQ, it seems just as possible that the performance IQ spike was just a matter of precosiousness.

It seems like homeschooling your son is the only way to know for sure. Only your mom-gut will know if he would gain more than he might lose, but I can totally understand the school not wanting to accelerate your son. Of course that isn't the same as understanding why the school won't figure out what his learning strengths are and helping him get more challenge in those areas. PRI is really tough for schools to provide appropriate challenge in, because it's about problem solving rather than retained knowledge - and that sure isn't in the job description of most elementary schools.

If I were shopping for a private school, I would look for one that likes active boys, and it very into hands on and project based learning where the PRI has a chance to shine. Afterschool I would look for a mentor who would help him build things with a hammer and nails and design new products to solve old problems based on his interests. Build a better mousetrap, and the world will beat a path to your door.

As I mom, I would keep believing that the problem solving afinity is in there, and look for ways to encourage that flame.
But I would also be careful about not mistaking the high speed and good working memory for the kind of school smarts that start being needed in middle school when the abstract thinking starts up. And be ready to pause in the middle of a TV show and ask: "Why does this character do that? What else could the character have done? Why do you think he didn't?"

I hope that helps,
Grinity

Thank you Grinity for articulating what I have been trying to say about my resistance to our approved grade skip. If a kid is great at manipulating numbers (or words) without the deeper understanding then a grade skip may only be a short term solution that would be reversed later. It is frustrating to question the numbers. I hate to be ruled by a set of numbers. But, at least in our case, until more data points come in (that are beyond mom�s gut and observations) it would be prudent to take a meandering path. Like when my kids want to run and I don�t want to have them out of earshot, I ask them to zig-zag their way. Switchbacks create a win-win. Dragomom, we are likely at this point heading toward a year of homeschool with a focus on science, art and games. Dc may continue to accelerate, may look like they�re standing still when they are actually diving deeper, or may level off and be more in tune with kids their age or�? Does this sound reasonable and harmless enough when intellectual capacity is uncertain?

What I struggle with most about school placement has to do with the way ds6 learns. When he learned place value, he got it all. The schools teach in this odd manner as if only small numbers are understandable and the older kids get, the bigger the numbers can be. Weird. When he figured out multiplication he jumped very, very quickly to figuring out multi-digit multiplication. When he learned about volume (capacity) conversions he could do the subtraction and addition and conversions of all measurements of it, fractions are the same such that going over decimals seems almost redundant now. So, the place he takes something he learns is different than the limited places the curriculum seem to go. Does that translate into a deeper understanding though? I don�t know. It does translate into a struggle for even a well meaning teacher. I spoke to a mathematician recently who suggested that dc�s origami and diagramming of shape manipulation can be called math. Is that math understanding or just manipulation and exploration? I don�t know how to tell at this point. If it isn�t understanding, I can see that there would be a point where others would �catch up' and/or ds would be missing subtler bits along the way.

We are blessed with great music teachers who are focused on ten years down the road and fostering a lifelong love of music. I know my ideal academic teachers would be the same. Have you looked for a teacher willing and eager to differentiate regardless of grade? If a year of homeschool is a possibility for you then perhaps you would be able to use the time to go deep and feel more confident about pushing the school if you choose to go back. In our case, I can tell you that dc are extremely enthusiastic about a year where cribbage, chess and Othello are homework assignments. I�m still looking for magical teachers though. Good luck to you.

Thanks for the links deacongirl and Dandy. Will check them out.

Thank you for your input. I see what you're saying about the scores and how we look at them. The IQ testing to me show more of his learing style and strengths and weaknesses, but I give more importance to the level he's performing at the time and how that affect his performance and behavior at school.

My goal wasn't really to have him advanced (even though I know he can handle the grade), but to get the school to do "something." Fortunately, 1st grade teacher was able to just "get him." She would challenge him with books that he would read once he finished his other class work; she requested testing (I believe CoGat) back then and he barely missed the cutoff, she got him into 2nd grade reading, etc. The little challenge provided was enough to get him going and that's all I cared about.

This year, same school, but a whole different story. He's very bored and tired of all the repetition and went from loving school to hating school. I asked for differentiation and got none. Even though he did excellent on reading class the year prior, this year he was placed on the same 2nd grade reading level again, even repeating some of the books from the prior year. He's currently able to solve multiplication and division problems in math, and they're still on addition and subtraction. He's a visual learner and very fast at catching the reasoning behing math problems with little introduction, so the repetition is really frustrating him.

My worries with him is that he would get used to work being too easy all the time and would not be ready when real challenges come his way such as in High School, College or even middle school. I do some homeschooling with him since once he's interested in something, he wants to learn more and more, but unfortunately as a single mom, it's not a full time option for us.

Fortunately, he has been accepted to go to a gifted charter school next year in town, but as I'm contemplating a relocation before next year, and I want it to be a permanent move, I want him to have a good start at whatever school he ends up going to and make sure his needs are met.

Thanks mich,

I do see that pattern of VCI lower than PRI in all tests. I was suggested that since he tends to read so fast, he doesn't worry about the little details or asking for the meaning of the words he doesn't yet know, therefore, the reading comprehension gets affected. I do see some of that since I always have to get him to slow down during tasks, also during writing. I also think is the way he thinks, which is hard to explain, but his logic is a little odd sometimes, until he explains things and then I make sense of what he means. So I got some reading comprehension materials to help him develop that area better so that it doesn't affect him in the future, even at grade level.

Thanks for your insightful review. I see what you mean. I do homeschool him as well, even though it's not a full time option for me since I'm a single mom. I only wish I could.

I do feel that these 2 years or public schooling have hindered his progression. He is very creative and very visual-spatial, so the PRI scores do not surprise me. However, I do believe his abstract thinking skills are very strong as well, but the test might not reflect that. He is not a "book smart" type of guy, but more of a hands on, research type of guy.

I am very positive about the school he is set up to start next year would be a good match, both for his strengths and his weaknesses, but as I contemplate a move, I want to address any issues before hunting for private schools. Based on our experiences, we have had a much better outcome on the private schools he had attended.