Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy What would you do differently? LONG

I need some advice, or encouragement, regarding how DH and I handle our son. DS is our 2nd child, so we are not rookies. He just turned 4 2 weeks ago, but he has been angry, controlling, and independent basically since he was born. In other words he is exhausting. So, I would like to get some opinions about how DH and I are handling some common situations we have with him. Based on the following examples, What would you have done differently if you were in our shoes? I'll also note that we already try to be proactive by allowing him to have control over as much as possible everyday, in hopes that it will lesson his need for power. IE He gets to pick out his clothes, choose his computer time block, pick out the vegetable for dinner.... But that is not enough to feed his constant desire to rule the world.

EXAMPLE 1
We are at the dinner table and DS, out of the blue, says in his infamous -I know it all voice/tone- "You are not feeding me" confused I asked what he means by that. He replies "The other day you said that one of your jobs was to feed us, THIS is not called feeding me" (Let me note that this conversation was weeks+ ago, not days!) I figured out that he was implying that "feeding" means to physically spoon food into the mouth. And he was trying, like always, to make a point that someone is wrong. I gently explained to him that "feeding" has different meanings and to give an example I said that "You often help FEED the dog by putting the food into the bowl, hence you can feed someone without physically spooning the food into someone's mouth." He replies back still in his -I know it all voice/tone- "Well you are still wrong" GRRR I reply back "Son I understand that it is not fun being wrong but in this case YOU are the one who is incorrect. It is also very rude to use that tone and constantly try to prove that someone, especially an adult, is wrong."

He constantly, almost everyday, does things like this. He corrects every grammar, pronunciation, and vocabulary mistake, adults or otherwise. His tone is the worst part, it is very rude, condescending, and disrespectful. It's like everyday he wakes up with a mission to prove others wrong and if he can't find something in the moment he reaches back into the past. To be honest his corrections are usually right, but when he is wrong he refuses to accept it. He speaks in this tone to many of my adult friends, as well. My BF says his mouth is just like her 13yo, and she is correct! Dh and I constantly feel embarrassed, exhausted and sometimes defeated. What could we do differently to help our preschooler quit seeking power/control by finding faults in others? And help him understand that his TONE is offending? I know that a 12yo has the capacity to know what their tone is implying, does a 3/4 year old? Does he consciously know what he doing or is it just a manifestation of a brain that is beyond one's social development?


EXAMPLE 2
DS is swinging his bat in the living room. I reply "Please don't swing that in the living room you could accidentally break something like the TV and that would not be cool" So he starts moving the bat slowly "Son I just asked you not to swing that in my living room, why are you making the choice not to listen and follow the rules" He replies back "I am not swing it, I am moving it slowly through the air" I say "I am not going to have a debate with you about the definition of swinging, you may now take your bat to your bedroom." he gets mad "you never let me do anything fun" and takes it his bedroom. NOTE: He walks as hard as he can without technically stomping, because he gets in trouble for stomping; He closes his door as hard as he can without technically slamming it, because he gets in trouble for door slamming.
2 DAYS later DS had the bat back in the living room and was doing the "slow swing" before I say anything he says "I am not swinging it I am slowly moving it through the air and the TV will not get broken because I am being careful" Did he really want to play with the bat? NO He just wanted to prove the loophole in the rule and use it to prove that he can. So I gently explain to him that playing with bat in the living room still makes me nervous, so the new rule is that the bat is not allowed to be in the living room. He replies back "That means I can't ever take the bat outside because I'd have to go through the living room first" After that remark I couldn't help but to smile because strangling him seemed to be the only other option. I'll note that he can't stand an open debate, anytime I use the "I am not having a debate with you" line, He WILL bring it back up on a different day until the conclusion is reached.


These are true stories from this week. Similar things like this happen multiple times everyday with our son and have for years. Is there any hope of change? Will it get better or worse with maturity? Am I the only one with a teenager stuck in a preschoolers body? Thank you in advance for your input, criticism, advice, and encouragement.

Oh dear. That's not very fun for anybody, is it? I wish I could help--here are a couple of thoughts, but I hope somebody with better ideas will show up soon!

It may be that it's partly just a function of age (as I've mentioned before, 4 was not the easiest age for any of our three).

I wonder if it would help to disengage from the situations where you can? (Not in your second example, where things would get damaged if you didn't intervene, but in the first case, I wonder if it would be worth trying just saying, "mmmhmm" with a smile and then start talking to your husband about something interesting--and maybe his attention would be diverted from the argument he's trying to start?)

I wonder in general, too, if sometimes it might be helpful to let him see that his tone is hurtful? Let your eyes fill with tears, and tell him that it hurts you when he speaks to you so disrespectfully and treats you like you don't matter. With any luck, maybe he'd come and give you a hug at that point.

Possibly, too, some kind of "team-building" talk might be good? We had a corny family chant I dragged out periodically some years back when I felt as though I needed to reinforce the sense that our family was a team, and that we needed to work together in order for everyone to be happy--he needs to see that your family life is not a contest with winners and losers, but that you are all on the same side.

Can you get out his baby pictures once in a while and tell him stories about himself? (Maybe stories that emphasize what a sweet baby he was, and how happy he made you?) He clearly can't be really happy being so unpleasant, and maybe you both need to reconnect to a time when life was really joyous for both of you.

I hope that helps a little bit--

peace
minnie

OMG, how did you get my son in your house????? I'm sure someone will have ideas for you and I will listen to them also. I do the same thing you do...try to logically explain why he should or should not do something and he invariably finds a loophole and condescendingly points it out. BUT, my husband does not have the problem with him like I do or his teachers do. My son will listen to him first time without arguing much of the time.

HAHAHA! Ok, not laughing at the situation you are in, but laughing because I have one of these too! I can tell you, that mine is now 8 1/2 and we are getting better at "taming" it. She still argues like the best lawyer ever and thinks she has valid reason to justify to comments and HATES to be wrong, but... she has calmed down. She may still do it at times, then a second later catches herself and says "I'm sorry! I didn't meant to say that" without any prompting. She too, tries to not STOMP up the stairs and to not slam the door but the urge is still there, and occasionally still does but she has really gotten much better. I can say to stick with what you are doing. You aren't doing anything wrong, you just have a very headstrong, intense child but with proper direction, like you are doing to point out what is acceptable and not acceptable, it will get better as he gets older. In fact, I was on the phone with the cable company this morning and my two had a yelling match! I got off the phone after both were sent to their rooms and my DD comes down with an apology letter for her "bad behavior and the poor choices she made." SHEESH! I wanna say "Hindsights always 20/20!" Like I said, these outbursts are farther and fewer in between and MUCH more short lived then when she was your DC's age so hang in there

I have to say, my child is an angel at school though. They would think I was making it up if I told them what she did at home! At least she knows boundaries, but I wished she didn't do it at all. It does get better though.

There are time when a child needs to just listen.

Because you are willing to debate, even if just for a while, he's going to do it all the time. You have to decide before you speak, if the comment you are about to make is debatable. If the answer is no, then don't allow it. As much as we hate this line, it works.

"Because I said so!"

And then stop discussing it and expect action. It takes a while to resist answering the questions and debate but if you want to be successful you can't be baited. "i am not going to discuss it." Or "It's not a debate" are about as far as you need to go. It may take a bit of time and it's hard to know when you really want to enforce the no debate rule, but you'll get the hang of it.

I think my almost 4 year old son also snuck into your house. His older brother is 7 and we are still living with the arguements, tone and behaviors that you write about on a daily basis.

I can't offer advice but only sympathize with you. We currently using the line "I will not argue with you" and then walking away. Most of the time the issue is then temporarily dropped.

Yep. Completely agree with Crisc. "I will not argue with you", "Those are my final words" etc, and then walking away is the best way to end arguments.

I definitely have one of these, and it's great to know we're not alone.

I wish it was just me! but he corrects everyone. He even corrects strangers at the grocery store! Which usually earns me the "my child would never dare to correct an adult" look. It's not my fault they made the mistake of calling his TEAL shirt blue or commented on his cool "shoes" when he is wearing sandals. Mistakes like that really get under skin and he can't resist letting someone know that they are wrong.

We use the "I am not going to debate with you line" everyday and he has NO problem immediately altering his behavior. We do not allow back talk, whining, but's, or why's as a response to a direct order and he has learned not do them. He's too sneaky for direct backtalk and arguing, instead he only alters his behavior to the minimum of what the instructions imply, which makes difficult to justify why his actions are unacceptable. I do try to choose my words carefully, but it is so hard to outsmart his train of thought. Even his comment about not being able to take the bat outside, came AFTER he followed my directions and took the bat to his room.


Thanks bh14
It's nice to feel like I'm not the only one.

So, I have a question related to this: is this debating/arguing/finding loophole behavior a sometimes-characteristic of gifted kids? Because I have been attributing it to my son's autism spectrum disorder and his need for EXACT-ness, and black-and-white-ness; and the tone he uses due to his supposed decreased ability to recognize subtlety in language and communication..... I have been questioning his ASD diagnosis the more I learn about gifted behavior and could this be another example of how I am wrong about his ASD??? Nan

[quote=Floridama]It's not my fault they made the mistake of calling his TEAL shirt blue or commented on his cool "shoes" when he is wearing sandals. Mistakes like that really get under skin and he can't resist letting someone know that they are wrong.[quote]

Heaven forbid I should refer to DS5's shorts or underwear as "pants." He's another one who demands precision and lets few mistakes go unnoticed. I am also familiar with the tone.

Unfortunately, I also recognize a lot of this in myself. The same kinds of mistakes that my son will jump on also get under my skin--only I've learned to bite my tongue (most of the time). I'm guessing it's an outgrowth of perfectionism, which DS and I both struggle with.

I try to explain to DS that sometimes it's more important to be kind than to be right. I also make him admit his own mistakes. I don't point them out, but when they're obvious and he's making excuses or blaming others, I make him take ownership. I won't stand for an "I knew that" or "That's what I meant to say" when clearly, he didn't. I'll even make him say the words, "I was wrong" or "I made a mistake," and then immediately let him know that THAT'S OKAY. Everyone makes mistakes--even him--and life goes on. I'm hoping that as he becomes more accepting of his own mistakes (and keeping him challenged at school has done wonders for this in the past year), he'll eventually become more accepting of mistakes in others. That's my theory, anyway.

I'm interested in what others here have to say.