Gifted Issues Discussion homepage Forums Parenting and Advocacy Dr. Suzy Carroll GT Advocate

I have to admit, I am so grateful to see so many parents and advocates of the gifted & talented population on this website! It thrills me to see how involved everyone is in their children's and students' education and well-being. After all my experiences working in Texas, advocating for the GT population, training GT teachers, researching giftedness, and working with exceptionally brilliant students at various summer camps, I am highly convinced that we need more people and more discussion boards like this in Texas. I promise to post thought provoking and educational posts online, however, up front, I would like to ask for your help.

You see, I am a GT individual. I have been a professor for the past five years, and I received my Doctorate in Educational Psychology from Texas A&M University with a specialization in Intelligence, Creativity, & Giftedness. This past semester (Spring 09), I realized that my heart is more in line with helping and advocating for this population, their parents, and thier teachers moreso than just teaching psychology courses. Thus, I submitted a letter of resignation to my college and decided to pursue my calling to dive deeper into the world of GT Advocacy. If anyone has any suggestions as to how I can market myself to this population (such as yourselves), please let me know.

This is a short version of me, yet, I feel like for you to trust me in my future posts, it's critical to know who I am. You are more than welcomed to view my website www.lifecoachdrsuz.com to get a better insight into myself and my heart.

Thanks up front,
Dr. Suz

There are a few things that come to mind immediately when considering marketing. Most parents of GT kids feel like they have very limited options when it comes to speaking with someone who actually "gets it". That's one of the reasons this site is so popular. The schools are signifigantly under educated when it comes to dealing with a HG or PG child. They tend to base most of their decisions on the social or emotional child rather than the academic child. Even though research is overwhelmingly in favor of acceleration for these kids, many of the schools still refuse. Educating the schools would be a good place to start!

Another issues that all parents of GT kids can identify with is the idea that having a GT child somehow means you have lots of disposable income! JHU and EPGY are great programs, but who can afford them? The cost of testing is phenomenal and for many when it's obvious that the only choice is to homeschool, it takes an entire income away from the household which many simply can't afford to do. It leaves you with a sick feeling in the pit of your stomach that somehow you're sacrificing what's best for your child for the sake of the almighty dollar. But that's just real life at it's finest....

I think for those of us with children on the extreme end, you spend alot of time stumbling blindly, hoping and praying that you're making the right choices. I just agreed to skip my 6 yo to 4th grade next year. Will I regret it later? maybe, but there is no road map or instruction manual. If you have a child with a disability, the support is there. Disability, SSI and Federal and State money for the school to do whatever needs to be done to help your child reach their potential.

If your child is PG? "We'll he'll be fine, anyone that smart will be just fine" Is it any wonder why we're so far behind in terms of education with other countries? Gifted education should be level with SPED. Children identified should be given the flexibility in programs that they need and the schools should get the funding to do it!

I'm luckier than alot of the parents on here in that my local school is doing everything they can to keep up with my son. There are many parents on here who spend all of their time having doors slammed in their faces by people who claim to be educators but are in fact nothing more than bean counters, the beans being the SBA test scores.

This has gone from marketing strategies to a big old rant, so I'll stop now. I hope i've started your quest for ideas!

There are not enough providers who specialize in testing and identifying gifted kids in the west. I wish there were someone available in my area!

It would be wonderful for someone to help families navigate the school system or create appropriate homeschool educational programs for their children.

I agree w/ the previous posters. There is only 1 psychologist w/in 1 hr of me experienced in testing GT kids. He works for the school district so his after hours time is limited and he limits his time to his patients who need psychological help.

I so wish for a psych to do testing at a reasonable cost that is familiar w/ my school district and who the players are to aid me in setting up an educational plan.

Have you looked at http://blogs.edweek.org/teachers/unwrapping_the_gifted/ , she seems very accessible and I'm sure would give you ideas on getting to know the schools.

Quite frankly, if you're going to market yourself, you'll want to decide upon the image you want to present. I'd suggest correcting all the misspellings in your site for starters in order to present a professional and polished image. I have to say that I would not choose an advocate who sports a "pop-psych" name like Dr. Suz. I'd frankly have more confidence in Dr. Carroll. Also, I'd have to wonder whether the public schools would/could hire you with an obvious religious side to your services. It just seems that you're trying to be all things to all people. A rather broad business plan - but then again, what do I know? Just a few things to think about - but at the very least, correct your grammar and spelling - particularly if you're marketing yourself to schools, teachers and the GT population. Hope this helps. It's intended kindly.

Hi Suz-e-Q,
Welcome!


Wow that was a big step!

Did you used to do some Advocating while you were a professor?

Fisrt thing I would do to reach parents 'like me' would be to develop some general mental guidelines for 'level of giftedness.' To say that you have gives me the idea that you'd 'ohh and ahh' over my child, which is so NOT what I am looking for. If you say that you have worked with Moderately Gifted, Highly Gifted and Profoundly Gifted children, then I think, ok now, this person can see my child as a 'normal' HG kid.

If I was going to go this route, I would try to look around at my region, and find out what are the availible services to MG,HG, and PG kids in your region, met that people who are already working in your field, and talk to the parents who you already know who are facing the kinds of challenges you want to help with.

I would consider myself a 'community organizer' of Gifties. Interview people. Work with any State organizations. Develop lectures that you can be asked to give at Parent Meetings or Schools. Write a book. Join SENG, and take their class in leading Parent-Support Groups, then lead some.

Think of ways that you can 'give free samples' of yourself -
Book club for preschoolers? early elementary schoolers? By listing the books you can imagine a preschooler could read and discuss, you are signaling to me that you 'get' my life. If you are going to gush over a kid reading 'see spot run' before Kindergarden then you won't attract the parents of a kid who is reading Harry Potter at that age. ((My son wasn't an early reader, but he was an 'precosious listener' and wanted to sit and listen to me read Harry Potter for hours and hours at age 5 - I was shocked to see that other parents were reading 'Hop on Pop' to their 5 year olds before bed. I was still in denial.))

Alternativly, you could hold book discussion groups - say for the Percy Jackson Series, for any kid of any age who has read or heard the book in question, and have no age limit, or say, for ages 3-11. There are the little tip offs I look for.

I would offer Saturday enrichment classes in Art or Photography or Math or Writing or Chess or whatever you love to explore at a reasonable price, with perhaps a 'free coupon' for a single class in exchange for phone numbers and emails, and call each parent to get an idea what they were looking for when they brought their child.

I would offer low cost or free 'Parenting Talks' - perhaps one time only at first, where you have a topic like: 'So smart, but won't do their homework!' or 'How to disipline a budding Lawyer.' that might draw parents in. Maybe offer an activity the kids would enjoy while talking to the Parents.

I would spend lots of time in schools getting to know the local gifted coordinators, if your school have such. Have you acctually attended advocacy meetings with parents? The main thing that HG and PG kids need is for educational settings that are within their 'readiness level' not too easy and not too 'hard.' So helping parents actually solve that particular problem is much more important that dealing with the emotional fall out of the problem.

'Every child deserves to be thought about well.' Each kid is unique, with their own challenges and strengths.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

BTW - which books have you read, and which ones do you find the most useful?

All good posts here.

I'd add that this has to be about the kids and the parents and solving their problems. I cannot stress this enough. They are your customer and you have to perform. I'd look at others' sites who do this for a feeling of what they do. Another point is that its the women - mothers - who will be 90% of the decision makers on this. You need to focus on them. Just look at this site - almost all the posters are female.

Getting the gifties organized in Texas would be a big step.

I'd say that identifying these kids and giving parents some tools is another big step. Pediatricians are the first line to do this and could screen for this and then provide materials to parents. Our Ped ID'd Mr W almost immediately, but she did not point us anywhere.

Setting up an in-service/CE program for medical professionals and teachers would be a good track. Generating materials for both professionals and parents on their kids which would then point them to resources is desperately needed.

I really needed expert advice in homeschooling my 11 year old 2E child but could never find any, none that I could afford anyway. Our insurance finally approved testing at a child study center. My son with motor dyapraxia and hypotonia has fatigue issues and trouble doing physical things like writing, but he reads and seems to comprehend at a much higher level than most kids his age. He was given a neuropsychological assessment yesterday from 9:00 to 5:30 with an hour and a half for lunch. He was nervous about taking the test, had an upset stomach and spent too much time in the bathroom and this made us a little late to the appointment. Getting there was stressful because traffic was really bad.

Luckily, the neuropsychologist/professor and her student who did most of the testing while she watched, were able to put my son at ease and I think that is so important for my son. I think it went well for a while at least. Before the testing started, my son said he told the student that he was also interested in neuropsychology and that he had recently read an interesting magazine article in Discover magazine about how memories are formed and that each time you remember something you replace it with a slightly modified version so the more you use the memory, the more you change it. The student told him that going through the testing might be good experience for him if he decides to go into neuropsychology later on and has to test people. I think the fact that he talked to my son for a few minutes really helped.

During the lunch break he seemed happy and said it was fun, but closer to 4 he was getting tired and that is when they gave him a math test. He said he told them he remembered working on similar problems at home but he just couldn't think any more. He said he told them he was used to taking breaks after each subject but there wasn't time for him to do this except to go to the restroom. He was so tired that he didn't even want to talk about the test at all until today. He said it was hard for him to get that feeling of being watched on the two-way mirror and having them write down every little thing he said on their notepads out of his mind and he didn't want to think about it any more.

Lori H - that's a llloonnnggg day! I know my 9 year old would have pooped out long before. He pooped out at not quite 8yrs old on the WISCIV all in 1 sitting w/ only a 5minute break. I think it hurt his scores.

Shari, very well said. I had tears in my eyes reading your comments. Thank you. You spoke for me, and for many other parents of HG children, espcially those who simply can't afford the astronomical tuitions of those specialized programs.

Dr. Suzy I live in NY. I'm in a dire need for help to advocate for my HG son. He is in the 99.9th percentile with IQ score of 154 and at least two years above grade level. He attended a private school for the gifted in KG, but unfortunately we are unable keep up with their tuition hikes any more.

The local school district is extremely under educated when it comes to HG. They felt offended when I asked if they have any special program for the academically gifted chilren. "Who? we deal with all types of students in the classroom. It's a very well-diversified community" they said. Test results are way below average and school environment is deteriorated.

I tried to ask if my son can attend a neighboring school district, which has a program for the gifted, but all doors were slammed in my face. I wrote letters to local board of education, neighboring school district board of education and even the State office for the gifted. No response. Any advice?

dalwil, are you applying for the Davidson Young Scholars program? They provide an educational consultant for families of children who qualify.

Yes, Cathy A. I filled out an application for the Young Scholar Program and mailed it yesterday. I don't know exactly how they can help me. I'm just doing every thing possible to help my child. I also applied for him at the gifted program at C.W. Post, but it's just 3 hours every Saturday starting Sept. But, what's my child going to learn the rest of the week? My worst fear is to see him failing and losing interest in education altogether if I send him to the malfunctioning local school.

We decided to try whole grade acceleration to see if that would help our son. It's not perfect, but I think he is happier and more engaged with school now. Have you considered that option?

I asked the local school district if my son can skip first grade since he already studied 2nd grade curriculum in his previous Gifted School. The answer was No. They don't recommend acceleration for its negative impact on the child social development. They jumbed to this conclusion without even seeing my son, screening him or evaluating his individual needs.

Thank you for suggestion, though. At least you're giving me the chance to talk to somebody who actually "gets it" as shari put it in her comments earlier. It has been very frustrating lately trying communicate with those who call themselves "educators"

You might also consider homeschooling. It's not necessary for every child, but if your DS really does start to shut down and if the school refuses to serve his needs, it can be a good solution.

Just so you know that I'm not one to push people on this, we are "emergency homeschoolers," as are a number of people on the forum. He had a bad 1st grade experience, and homeschooling turned out to be a lot better for him. But DS5 is starting public school kindergarten in the fall. I'm hoping it will work for DS5 even though it didn't work for his older brother, since he's a different kid and has different needs.

To me, deciding to take the leap was about considering my strengths (teaching) and weaknesses (advocacy) and weighing those against the fight I was going to have on my hands with a school system highly resistant to grade skips and even subject acceleration. Then when I factored in DS8's personality and desperate frustration--even anger--while he was in a bad school situation, homeschooling was the clear right answer for us. <shrug>

If nothing else, knowing that you can homeschool (even if you choose not to) can make you feel less desperate, less at the mercy of the people who just aren't getting it. FWIW, I'd recommend looking into all options--the more you know, the better prepared you are to find a path that works for your child, whatever that path might be.

If you have questions about homeschooling, feel free to ask. A lot of people have misconceptions about it and this is a safe place to consider alternatives. But if you're not interested, I won't bug you about it further.

Wishing you good luck on this journey!

Is moving to the neighboring school district with the gifted program an option?

Thank you Kriston for the idea. Unfortunately, I have to go to work to make ends meet. My husband works two jobs. Therefore, homeschooling can't be one of our options.

Dalwil,

Do you have a letter from his previous school recommending a skip? My son got one of these and it helped ease the way. In areas like this, educators listen to other educators better than to pretty much anyone else, from what I've seen.

If he had mastered the first grade curriculum, would they write a letter saying so? If they send an official thing saying that he's finished first grade, the public school might have no choice but to let him go to 2nd grade. This might be your best bet.

Failing that, have you tried use the Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual? You can get the 2002 edition on half.com for less than $40. The new 2009 version costs more. A local library might have it or be able to get it from another library for you.

Val

Good idea, Val.


Maybe they don't recommend it, but maybe they can be persuaded that it's appropriate for your son.

Thanks alot Val. Despite all the research I've done the past two months, this is the first time I hear about Iowa Acceleration Scale Manual. I'm grateful for these bright ideas. I'll definately look into it. I just have two questions for you, or any body in the forum:

1- Re the manual, is it for me as a parent to use with my child at home or for me to give to the school. I'm willing to do any thing. I just want to know who's this manual for.

2- Re skipping, do you think it's still worth it to fight with local school even though the results, the reputation and the school population are not encouraging at all? To give you an idea of how frustrating I'm, let me give you just one example of what happened during my vist to what-so-called the "best" elementary school in our local school district.

I went to the appointment to meet with the Assistant Superintendent and the principal of the elementary school. I pushed the door, it opened wide. I went in, walked throughout the school. Some of the teachers and local employees saw me, no body asked me who I was, or who I wanted to meet. When I saw this attitude, I said I'm not going to ask any body where's the main office, let me just wait and see how long it'd take them to realize that there's a stranger in the school. Unfortunately, no body did! I continued touring the school by myself until finally I found myself in front of the main office. I went in and found the principal chatting with the assistant superintedent and the secretaries. We shook hands as they were expecting me. I mentioned to them briefly how I've been touring the school for the last 10 minutes. "Really?! where did you park your car?........" I was chocked that they didn't even show any concern, and they quickly changed the subject!

Any thoughts about what should I do next? Do I complain to the local board of education? Do I raise my concerns to the State board of education? And, what would they do? I'm really at a loss of words and ideas. I'd appreciate hearing from you. Thanks.

The easiest route would probably be a certificate of completion of 1st grade from the old school. Tell them you just got it in the mail or something.

If she has one of these, you can take it to the new school and show it to them. If you have one of these in hand, the new school's only option might be to promote her to second grade (I don't know state law where you are, so...).

If you don't have one of these certificates in hand, call the old school and ask them if it would be reasonable to give her one. Explain the situation and ask what they can do to help.

Val

Kriston,

I feel like I'm giving up. No matter how hard I've tried to explain my son's situation to the school, I felt like banging my head against the wall, no body cares. When I mentioned the word "gifted", they thought I was bragging. My requst to enroll my son in a neighboring school district as an exception was met by deaf ears. So, I guess any more arguement would be just a waste of time.

Considering safety issues, I'd probably send my son to a Catholic school in the day time so that I can go to work (a safe and clean day care). At home, I'll do my best to quench his thirst for knowledge as much as I can. Since you are homeschooling you DS8, I have some questions for you:

1- Which curriculum do you recommend to use with HG child? given that DS6 mastered already 1st and 2nd grade curriculum of public school.

2- From your experience, what did you do with your younger child, who has different needs, so that you could have sometime alone with the older one? For me, I know that this will be one of my challenges.

3- How many hours a day you think it'd be required to spend with my son?

3- Any other advice, or thoughts you would like to share with me regarding homeschooling? I'd highly appreciate it. Thanks alot.

I'm sorry that you feel you're wasting your time with the schools. I definitely feel for you!

All kids and parents are different, so what works for one family may not work for another. The first year of homeschooling is usually a learning experience for the parent even more than for the child, since you have to figure out a system that works for you. We all make a lot of mistakes that first year--with schedule, with curriculum, with patience, with general approach to our kids, etc. It's normal, and it still turns out just fine. But know right now that perfectionism and homeschooling are uneasy bedfellows. Expect to learn and change as you go along. You don't have to finish everything you start.

I can tell you that most people find that with a GT child, curriculum is the easy part. One of the nice things about homeschooling a GT child is that a lot of what you have to do is just give them interesting material and get out of the way. It's a lot less work than it sounds like, especially for younger kids.

You might start by looking at E.D. Hirsch's "What Your Xth Grader Needs to Know" series and/or "Home Learning Year by Year" by Rebecca Rupp. They do a good job of laying out the sorts of things a child should know and the skills a child should have at each grade level. For me, they took a lot of the fear out of homeschooling because I realized that DS already knew a lot/most of the material for his grade level, so there probably wasn't much chance of his falling behind--my big worry! That freed us up to follow his interests a lot more faithfully. (I'm also a big fan of Lisa Rivero's book, BTW.)

For that reason, I'm not using specific packaged curricula much. We use the library a lot and workbooks and other learning aids that I buy for cheap whenever I find them. I have a teaching and curriculum design background, so I really prefer to make up my own path.

Of course, there's positively nothing wrong with using packaged curriculum. There's some good stuff out there! I just really like the freedom we have without it. For example(s): he's taking Arabic because he likes off-beat foreign languages. He studied robots and automotive engineering (very basic!) because he was interested in them. He read Dickens because he heard something about the plot of "Great Expectations" and he was interested. None of these things would be available to him in any packaged curriculum that I know of, but it was all there for my specific child. That flexibility works very well for us.

With that said, most homeschoolers love to talk about curriculum choices and what helped them get started. There are some great threads on this forum. Search by subject, and if you don't find them, I'll be happy to help if I can. Here's a good one for getting started: http://giftedissues.davidsongifted.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/topics/40903/1.html

I'd also STRONGLY recommend that you check out the homeschooling laws in your state. It's legal in all states, but some are much more HSing-friendly than others. Know what's required of you before you dive in.

Dealing with the younger sibling is a thornier issue, IMHO. For the past two years, DS8 and I did our schoolwork while DS5 was in preschool. We actually stayed in the church building and worked in one of the classrooms. This worked very well for us--no distractions! I am sure it would have been a lot more challenging for me without preschool for the younger one. I'd probably have had school for both kids at the same time if we hadn't had preschool for DS5. Babysitters are a possible help, too, if you can afford one. Could the Catholic school/day care give him some of the material you want to use?

Dazey, others with younger kids? Want to chime in here?

The young GT kids who homeschool typically only need 2-4 hours a day for school. As they get older, more time is usually needed. Remember that one-on-one learning is very intense. More time is not always better. We usually spent 2.5 hours a day, 4 days a week this past year (what offically would have been 2nd grade), plus he had a day at a "school for homeschoolers" where he took a math class and some other fun things and got social time.

I'm only including academics in that time. He also took an art class, a music class, and various sports for P.E. Those were all additional time--probably 3-4 additional hours per week.

The nice thing is that when you "do school" is flexible. If you're working, you can have school in the morning before you leave and/or after work, assuming that works for both of you. If you have a good sitter or if the Catholic school/daycare will work with you, you can assign "homework" for the child to do with the sitter. Use educational videos when they apply during that time. You could also do most of the teaching on the weekends if that's when you're free, and then use the weekdays for him to read and practice what he learned on the weekends, or whatever.

It's harder to homeschool while working, certainly, but lots of people do it. I think that breaking out of the notion that school is from 9-3 M-F is key.

Keep talking, keep asking questions. I'm happy to help, and there are lots of other helpful people here. As I said, even if you decide not to homeschool, knowing you have alternatives is empowering when you deal with the school.

Kriston,

Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and experience generously. Your answers were very helpful. Even though I need more time to dive into homeschooling, I just thought to drop a short message to say thank you. Down the road, I might come back to you with more questions, hope you don't mind:0) And, I hope one day I can help, too.

P.S. If your son has any question in Arabic, I'll be more than happy to help:0)) Have a great day now.

Don't give up quite yet. It isn't easy for any of us...the schools make it hard. If you read through a lot of the acceleration-related posts here, you'll see that many people (including me) have had to struggle. A key is perseverance...if it was easy, there wouldn't really be a big need for a forum like this one.

Can your son's previous school do anything to help?

Val

I'm happy to help, and I'm not alone. If you have questions, please do ask. And you've piqued my interest about your knowledge of Arabic. Thanks for the offer!

BTW, I agree with Val that if you keep your child in a traditional school, persistance will be key. But I think it's okay to take another path if it's better for your family. Only you can make that call.

Fortunately, homeschooling comes in many flavors!

My husband and I both work full time. Even though we can't homeschool right now, it is something I aspire to down the line.

So we are homeschoolers in our hearts, if not 100% homeschoolers in practice.
Like JH unschoolers - learning all the time.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0201550911/?tag=homeschoolassoci
http://www.educationreformbooks.net/learningallthetime.htm

If you haven't already, I encourage you to consider "afterschooling" and other ways folks incorporate aspects of homeschooling into their lives.

There is even a yahoo group for parents who work and homeschool.

Hi Dalwil,

I'm HSing a rising 4th grader and will be adding my rising 1st grader in the fall. I also have a 2.5yr old DD. I'd be happy to answer any questions. I'm just finishing up my 1st year so I'm still a newbie.

Hours a day depends on how on task your DS is and what you decide to HS. It takes us about 3hrs which doesn't include his reading time. DS takes frequent breaks and we have frequent interruptions from DD. plus we watch a lot of NOVA shows so that's an hour right there and DS has a history passion so he watches a history channel show or military show each day which is an hour.

For a 6yr old, probably 2hrs I'd say.

How old is your younger child?

We can continue this via PM Or separate thread to get this one back on topic if wanted.

Thank you all for your posts. Thanks for your ecouraging words and willingness to help. It had a tremendous impact on me.

When I came to this forum, I thought I was alone in my struggle and was looking for somebody to help me fight even more. Things turned out differently. The person I came for didn't even answer back! However, I started to get my peace back for the first time since I pulled my son out of his previous school. I think I know now what to do. Your posts and ideas helped me see the right path. God, it feels so much better to know that you're not alone, and that there are other parents out there who went through the same struggle and willing to help and share their experiences with you.

To keep you updated, here's what I feel today is the right thing to do for my son. For safety issues, I'll enroll him in a Catholic School nearby. The good news is that they informed me that they'd allow him to skip a year! Inspired by both Kriston and EastnWest, I decided to incorporate homeschooling in our daily life. Dazed&confused, you made me believe that I can do it. Two hours/day is not too much, I hope. And I believe that the key here, as Val put it in her post, is "Perseverance." Cathy, thanks for your encouraging words.

I'll keep coming back and As D&C suggested I might be a more frequent visitor to the homeschooling thread, or yahoo group. To you all, I'd love to help as you helped me when I needed help the most!

And, Kriston, yes I speak Arabic, and I'd be more than happy to help your son with any questions he has.

Dalwill....here is a board dedicated to afterschoolers http://afterschoolers.yuku.com/bafterschoolers with a few recent HSing converts.

Good luck! And I'm so happy to have contributed to your peace of mind. You made my day!

Mine, too!

The fact is we've all been there. How we chose to solve the problem may be different, but we all know how it feels.

Congrats on the grade skip. I hope that helps. If you have further questions or just want to talk, keep coming back.

dalwil, that's great news! I'm glad you're feeling good about this plan. Something I learned here is to stay flexible, because kids change and circumstances change. What works for now may not work a couple of years down the road, but you will be able to adapt as you go along.

And you are definitely not alone.